7D2 is here

I don't see why Nikon has to accept any challenge, where in fact they could have initiated it, and it would have meant they listened to their customers.
Exactly. And if they do come out with a D400 next year (which i doubt) they AIN'T doing it for you, but simply just to compete with its competitor. Is kind of hard to spend money on a company with that kind of mentality towards it's customers.
 
Vision? Like what you see with your eyes? Isn't what Nikon is supposed to be all about ;-)

I guess nobody explained the market realities to Canon: it is impossible to deliver a pro-build magnesium-clad camera with improved shutter life that does not cost an arm and a leg! Canon should know better than spend a fortune on a non-existent market! The market is a bunch of nerds that talk but do not spend money! Doing such a camera will waste stockholders money Blah Blah Blah!

;-)

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
LOL. Now that's funny. Good point.
 
There will never be an FF body with D300/7D2's features at 1,700USD. The disposable income distributions curve (for individuals and small businesses) for cameras is, I bet, already in the right end of tail at that value, so a D810 is totally out of question for most (think budding pros, schools, universities, architectural offices, etc).
For starters, it's $1799 USD, not a hundred less than that. Moreover, I believe you are already above the price that might be comfortable for most non-professionals. We'll have to see. Secondly, I think full frame is the way to go for the more serious users for a number of reasons. Only the robust build comes to mind as important in my world as well as other jobbing professionals I know.

As far as a "budding professional" is concerned, I don't think it's wise to strap oneself down with a small APS-C sensor unless you really have to for some reason. I can think of no features in the new Canon or imaginary Nikon D400 other than build quality which I'd consider to be important enough. Being able to shoot RAW with a full sized sensor is just about the most important feature possible. I'd rather see the compromise be in build than sensor size all day long. This means seeing our budding professional using a professional size format. In other words, I'd much rather see them beginning their investment with a D610 than some loaded with whistles and bells small format body.

Those whistles and bells are features you don't need or use much as you grow out of beginning photography and into professional usage. What's the point of fancier matrix metering, if you learn to avoid Automatic Mode? When I say Automatic, I mean all the automatic modes from Aperture Priority to Green Auto.

Your budding professional should probably invest slowly and carefully in pro-grade glass. There are only, at this level, Nikon with the 17-55 and the 12-24 which I know of. The rest are all designed as FX offerings. They can be used on DX, of course, but where's the advantage? DX is supposed to offer us size, weight and price savings, right?

Again, we'll just have to see. I'm not sure where you're getting all this about universities, architectural offices and the like, but I certainly don't agree.

Anyway, take care. :-)
 
Simply absofrekinlutely sensational (caveat on paper, but probably fine)!!!!

An eye-opener.

This, and the new 400/4 DO IS USM would be one hell of a shooter.
 
There will never be an FF body with D300/7D2's features at 1,700USD. The disposable income distributions curve (for individuals and small businesses) for cameras is, I bet, already in the right end of tail at that value, so a D810 is totally out of question for most (think budding pros, schools, universities, architectural offices, etc).
For starters, it's $1799 USD, not a hundred less than that. Moreover, I believe you are already above the price that might be comfortable for most non-professionals. We'll have to see. Secondly, I think full frame is the way to go for the more serious users for a number of reasons. Only the robust build comes to mind as important in my world as well as other jobbing professionals I know.

As far as a "budding professional" is concerned, I don't think it's wise to strap oneself down with a small APS-C sensor unless you really have to for some reason. I can think of no features in the new Canon or imaginary Nikon D400 other than build quality which I'd consider to be important enough. Being able to shoot RAW with a full sized sensor is just about the most important feature possible. I'd rather see the compromise be in build than sensor size all day long. This means seeing our budding professional using a professional size format. In other words, I'd much rather see them beginning their investment with a D610 than some loaded with whistles and bells small format body.

Those whistles and bells are features you don't need or use much as you grow out of beginning photography and into professional usage. What's the point of fancier matrix metering, if you learn to avoid Automatic Mode? When I say Automatic, I mean all the automatic modes from Aperture Priority to Green Auto.

Your budding professional should probably invest slowly and carefully in pro-grade glass. There are only, at this level, Nikon with the 17-55 and the 12-24 which I know of. The rest are all designed as FX offerings. They can be used on DX, of course, but where's the advantage? DX is supposed to offer us size, weight and price savings, right?

Again, we'll just have to see. I'm not sure where you're getting all this about universities, architectural offices and the like, but I certainly don't agree.

Anyway, take care. :-)
 
The D300 era DR of the EOS 70D at ISO 200 through 400 is something I don't want to go back to. Even a minor improvement there might now be enough for me to jump.
Although my D800 spoils me, I never had a big problem with DR on my old D300 which ran around 12 stops. Right now, give me back the 12 stop DR of my old D300 w/20MP @1.6 crop, 10 FPS, 65 AF points, deep buffer and throw in one of Canon's supertele's...and I could get by. :-D

--

Gary -- Some Nikon stuff -- and a preference for wildlife in natural light
www.pbase.com/garyirwin
 
n057 wrote:.
It does. For the same FOV on a long lens, you pay less and carry less on DX than on FX.

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Hey pal. Good to see you.

This is one of the things I see people saying but just really don't understand much. Why on earth would I care much about field of view? So what you're saying is that with smaller sensors, I get only part of my image, right? I only get to capture a fragment of my FX image. I have to digitally enlarge it to get it back to where I want it at the cost of IQ. Crop factor is an FX advantage, not DX. Enlarge in Photoshop if you want digital enlarging. It's the same thing.

That's the problem with people thinking in terms of crop factor. They think it's optical instead of digital. It's not, you know. Nothing magical happens when you use a smaller sensor to crop a smaller image from a larger one. When you trim the larger image then enlarge it, it looks like you went to a longer lens, but you didn't.





I stuck a DX lens on an FX camera. See? Now if I enlarge that area in the red rectangle to the total size of the image, the background will look closer making it seem as if I moved to a longer lens. It's just parlor tricks. Crop factor doesn't provide longer focal length. 300mm stays at 300mm.

The only advantage is that under certain situations where you have to crop anyway, DX can put more pixels on the target, all else being equal. In those situations, I'd personally rather manually do my cropping in post. I have better control that way. That's why I'd never put an FX camera in crop mode, as well. I might decide to use an off-center crop later. Make sense? :-)

Take care.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.
 
12 stops at ISO 200 would be a 2/3 stop improvement over the EOS 70D. Yes, I could live with 12 stops, although I appreciate the extra 1.5 stops of the D7100 in dealing with all of those whites on the Snowies.
 
Nikon's ball is squarely where is belongs, in the FX court as a serious tool for most photographers. As the cost to manufacture FX size sensors continues to plummet, the cost of FX bodies will also continue to drop.
But some people don't want FF for various reasons.
There's been almost no serious design with respect to DX glass in recent years and I'm not expecting much in the future unless you're into consumer zooms with moderate performance levels. As far as existing glass is concerned, what lens might one own that would justify the purchase of an expensive pro-build DX body? Maybe one with the 17-55 f/2.8 but that could be used in crop mode until one could step up to an FX lens of equivalent optics.
Are Canon knocking out loads of EPS lenses? Doesn't seem to be harming their APS-C camera sales too much. It's almost as if they are saying if you want the best quality lens it will have to be one of our expensive EP lenses. :-/ What position do they hold in the market again? Nikon are doing the same, but for some reason user believe there has to be a full range of DX lenses.
With regards to size and weight, I've just never seen any advantage there in DX glass or bodies to speak of. If someone is using an 18-200 or 18-270 type lens, why bother with a top of the line DX body?
Because at the long end the get the FOV equivelent to a 300mm and 405mm. Yes you can crop down to get the same FOV, but you may be losing pixels compared to a 24mp sensor even with a D810, and even more if it is a D610 or D750.
I can see the point with Canon. They just don't have the plethora of choices Nikon supplies us with. We now have five FX bodies to choose from.
You say that like it is a good thing. Multiple camera hobbled in different ways in comparison to each other. They obviously want you to my multiple cameras, and if their perfect World it would be a D810 and D4S, but not many have the need or desire for 2x FF cameras. Now a DX and FF could complement each other, and be easier on the pockets of those with the cash. Oh, and look what Canon have done, they have made the 7DII and the 5DIII with very similar layouts. It is like that is what they want their customers to do.
There's just no point in a similarly priced DX body, not to mention the supporting glass and accessories. For those who insist on the smaller sensor, the Nikon D7x00 line seems more than robust enough and with a fast card, is plenty fast.
Yes, but for how many frames? ;-) That there are people still not willing to migrate to a D7*** even now, should tell you that is not good enough for them.
If the smaller sensor doesn't bother you and you want machine gun frame rates, consider the Nikon One line of cameras.
And if they want the build quality of a top of the range DSLR, the One Series has even less chance than a D7*** has of attracting people.

For starters, it's $1799 USD, not a hundred less than that. Moreover, I believe you are already above the price that might be comfortable for most non-professionals.

That price didn't stop the D300/S from selling well, or the 7D. The enthusiast will pay a little more to get what they want. But there are limits, and D810 and especially D4S prices are beyond even the most enthusiastic enthusiast. ;-) lol
Secondly, I think full frame is the way to go for the more serious users for a number of reasons. Only the robust build comes to mind as important in my world as well as other jobbing professionals I know.
So anyone who wants quality images from distant subjects with smaller, cheaper lenses didn't enter your head? There are bird/sport users here that have been saying the same thing for years.
As far as a "budding professional" is concerned, I don't think it's wise to strap oneself down with a small APS-C sensor unless you really have to for some reason. I can think of no features in the new Canon or imaginary Nikon D400 other than build quality which I'd consider to be important enough.
10fps with AF in a DSLR for almost a third of the price of a 1DX! Again, being able to use smaller cheaper lenses to get very similar results for a fraction of the cost! :-/
Anyway, take care and have a great day. :-)
You have a nice day too. :-)
 
I can imagine folks you describe might be a bit pulled if they invested into DX glass heavily, but if D400 would come up now I doubt it would be any cheaper than D750. And body aside, glass portfolio is much stronger on FX side. My impression is - and you do not have to live in the same world as me - folks just might go rather for FX than DX even with D400 released if that's where lenses will be developed further. I think we can revisit this topic in couple of months and see how the whole thing plays out.
 
The only advantage is that under certain situations where you have to crop anyway, DX can put more pixels on the target, all else being equal. In those situations, I'd personally rather manually do my cropping in post. I have better control that way. That's why I'd never put an FX camera in crop mode, as well. I might decide to use an off-center crop later. Make sense? :-)

Take care.
 
If the sensor turns out to be up to the task, this camera might just tempt me to sell my D300 and Nikon lenses and move over to Canon.

Offcourse the sensor will be up to the task ,there is no Canon SLR with bad IQ in the right hands.....gotta hand it to Canon this cameras sound like the real beans :-)
 
n057 wrote:.

It does. For the same FOV on a long lens, you pay less and carry less on DX than on FX.

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Hey pal. Good to see you.

This is one of the things I see people saying but just really don't understand much. Why on earth would I care much about field of view? So what you're saying is that with smaller sensors, I get only part of my image, right? I only get to capture a fragment of my FX image. I have to digitally enlarge it to get it back to where I want it at the cost of IQ. Crop factor is an FX advantage, not DX. Enlarge in Photoshop if you want digital enlarging. It's the same thing.
I guess you would be happy if you captured that 17mm image on a Hasselblad. With that focal on such a large frame (full-frame?), you could include your ears in the image, then crop it down in photoshop to only keep the fence. You would need that anyway in order to eliminate the vignetting.
That's the problem with people thinking in terms of crop factor. They think it's optical instead of digital. It's not, you know. Nothing magical happens when you use a smaller sensor to crop a smaller image from a larger one. When you trim the larger image then enlarge it, it looks like you went to a longer lens, but you didn't.



I stuck a DX lens on an FX camera. See? Now if I enlarge that area in the red rectangle to the total size of the image, the background will look closer making it seem as if I moved to a longer lens. It's just parlor tricks. Crop factor doesn't provide longer focal length. 300mm stays at 300mm.

The only advantage is that under certain situations where you have to crop anyway, DX can put more pixels on the target, all else being equal. In those situations, I'd personally rather manually do my cropping in post. I have better control that way. That's why I'd never put an FX camera in crop mode, as well. I might decide to use an off-center crop later. Make sense? :-)
If it works for you, no problem ;-)
Take care.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.


--
JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
 
Now ball is in Nikon's court. Very impressive (but I guess sensor is same as previous one in 70D, so not up to Nikon levels). The Af is very good on paper, and 10fps is all wildlife shooters want.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/19...canon-eos-7d-mark-ii-first-impressions-review
Thom thinks, Nikon doesn't want to play ball anymore.

Quote:

"At this point a D7200/D7300 with additional buffer and the other new things that were in D750/D810 would probably be all we can expect."

(http://nikonrumors.com/2014/09/14/e...the-new-nikon-d750-dslr-camera.aspx/#comments)
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/
Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Jesus its simple, the 7D2 puts more pixels on target at a given FOV than the d810. It does so at 10 FPS not 5 or in my case 4 as I have a d800e ( trust me penalty box is labeled that for a reason although I can sometimes tolerate 1.2 crop for 5fps ). It also does so to the depth of 31 raw ( unlimited jpg basically ) vs the 9 ( I dont ever see 9 on mine regardless of what the reviews say) on the 7100. And with a robust full size body designed for rugged use balancing large heavy glass with AF-ON ;) and can utilize FX glass better than FX sensors themselves in terms of reach......

Just stop it, if your in this forum you know exactly why people want this camera, while I would have preferred even more pixel density it checks all the boxes for me so by the winter shooting season Ill be out unless reviews reveal something the paper doesnt show. Now if Nikon gets me a deep buffer 10fps full sized body to hang a heavy lens on for less than 2k ill buy that regardless of whether its FX or DX.....Love my d800e but its very slow, the d7100 buffer and build can be real issues does this stop me from getting decent shots? of coarse not but neither are the best tool for the job. I got to admit I do LIKE the d750 coming from Sony SO glad they put a articulating screen on a mid to upper level camera finally wish it was a bit faster but I could live with 6.5 fps in a world where the 7d2 doesnt exist.....but now it does.....
 
n057 wrote:.

It does. For the same FOV on a long lens, you pay less and carry less on DX than on FX.

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Hey pal. Good to see you.

This is one of the things I see people saying but just really don't understand much. Why on earth would I care much about field of view? So what you're saying is that with smaller sensors, I get only part of my image, right? I only get to capture a fragment of my FX image. I have to digitally enlarge it to get it back to where I want it at the cost of IQ. Crop factor is an FX advantage, not DX. Enlarge in Photoshop if you want digital enlarging. It's the same thing.

That's the problem with people thinking in terms of crop factor. They think it's optical instead of digital. It's not, you know. Nothing magical happens when you use a smaller sensor to crop a smaller image from a larger one. When you trim the larger image then enlarge it, it looks like you went to a longer lens, but you didn't.



I stuck a DX lens on an FX camera. See? Now if I enlarge that area in the red rectangle to the total size of the image, the background will look closer making it seem as if I moved to a longer lens. It's just parlor tricks. Crop factor doesn't provide longer focal length. 300mm stays at 300mm.
Don't forget the viewfinder magnification. On DX this red rectangle is your entire viewfinder. This does make a difference when you shoot distant subjects (e.g. players on a standard size field), where you actually want to see what you're shooting the best you can. In addition, focus points spread is significantly better on DX. And if you use an FX lens, you don't need to worry about performance degradation away from the center when this matters.

All things considered, as far as IQ you only sacrifice about 1 stop or thereabouts going from FX to DX of the same generation. Depending on what you're shooting the other advantages may well outweigh this one stop. I shoot with both DX and FX, and there are circumstances when I prefer D300 to D3s despite at least 2 stop difference between the two. There is no magic in FX, you gain something, you give something else.
The only advantage is that under certain situations where you have to crop anyway, DX can put more pixels on the target, all else being equal. In those situations, I'd personally rather manually do my cropping in post. I have better control that way. That's why I'd never put an FX camera in crop mode, as well. I might decide to use an off-center crop later. Make sense? :-)

Take care.

--
Cheers, Craig
Follow me on Twitter @craighardingsr : Equipment in Profile - f/22 Club Member
I reserve the right to make mistakes in reasoning and logic as well as to change my mind anytime I wish. I also ask forbearance with respect to my typos. Please take a look at my gallery here at DPR.
 
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12 stops at ISO 200 would be a 2/3 stop improvement over the EOS 70D. Yes, I could live with 12 stops, although I appreciate the extra 1.5 stops of the D7100 in dealing with all of those whites on the Snowies.
 

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