You guys sound like the Canon guys who

ARB1

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were all mad about the Canon 10D's photo softness; and many of them are still complaining about the softness of their photos over at the Canon SLR forum.

Photo quality: Oly's photo quality out of the camera has always been outstanding, and I expect the new Oly to be even better. Man, I took some photos of a friend for the cover of her new CD coming out, and I'll tell you my E-20 is still a killer.

Price: The Canon 10D list is $1999, so the Oly's street price will be somewhere in the range of Canon's 10D if not lower. Oly knows what they’re up against; they read the news papers too you know.

Lens selection: Like many here have said, how many lenses do you normally use? I bet most Canon users leave many of their lenses at home. I'd love to have fewer lenses that cover the range, and that do the job. I think most folks in the Canon forum are just lens junkies, as many have admitted (“hay man, my lens is bigger than your lens” blaa blaa blaa LOL). We live in an age of technology; these camera manufacturers should be able to offer fewer lenses with each being of superior quality and superior photographic range.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.
 
I have a Canon 10D and also just bought an E20. After using the E20 for a while I have gotten a feel for the camera.

I can say this from my limited experience with the E20. Most of the complaints I have read so far about the E1 are unrealistic. Exuberant expectations of high pixel counts are ridiculous. I am not looking to fill 27 CF cards on a shooting assignment. I am looking for pictures that will knock my socks off. At 5mp I can do just about everything I need to including 20x30 wall art pictures. Those that can't - well, what can I say.

The financial success of the E1 boils down to this:

If the noise levels at ALL ISOs are lower than the Canon 10D then this camera will be a runaway hit.

If the noise levels match or are very close to the 10D then the E1 will hold it's own as an alternative competitor, but nothing special.

If the noise levels are on the same level as the E20, then the E1 will stumble and sputter along and maybe hang around long enough for a rebirth or just fade away.

On paper, the camera matches or exceeds the other pro level cameras. If it can deliver the pictures then it will most certainly be in the running. If it can't deliver the picture quality, it will become a "nitch" camera and not gather the necessary funds for R&D to progress.

Guys that buy cameras to make a living require the camera to become a partner in creating the photographs that can meet the requirements to sell. If the camera is a lazy partner, it will get the boot. I see it that simple and that is my litmus test.

Peter Gregg
 
I have a Canon 10D and also just bought an E20. After using the E20
for a while I have gotten a feel for the camera.

I can say this from my limited experience with the E20. Most of the
complaints I have read so far about the E1 are unrealistic.
Exuberant expectations of high pixel counts are ridiculous. I am
not looking to fill 27 CF cards on a shooting assignment. I am
looking for pictures that will knock my socks off. At 5mp I can do
just about everything I need to including 20x30 wall art pictures.
Those that can't - well, what can I say.

The financial success of the E1 boils down to this:

If the noise levels at ALL ISOs are lower than the Canon 10D then
this camera will be a runaway hit.

If the noise levels match or are very close to the 10D then the E1
will hold it's own as an alternative competitor, but nothing
special.

If the noise levels are on the same level as the E20, then the E1
will stumble and sputter along and maybe hang around long enough
for a rebirth or just fade away.

On paper, the camera matches or exceeds the other pro level
cameras. If it can deliver the pictures then it will most certainly
be in the running. If it can't deliver the picture quality, it will
become a "nitch" camera and not gather the necessary funds for R&D
to progress.

Guys that buy cameras to make a living require the camera to become
a partner in creating the photographs that can meet the
requirements to sell. If the camera is a lazy partner, it will get
the boot. I see it that simple and that is my litmus test.

Peter Gregg
 
Hi Peter,

Nice to hear from someone who has used both. Could you expand your comments a little please? It's not often reality creeps into these comparisons and it's grealy appreciated.

David.
 
I see you have been reading the canon forum as have I because I have also been looking into purchasing a D10. Most people who complain about softness in the photo's probably do not understand how to post process a photograph. All camera's have their own sharpening techniques and if I wanted a sharp image then a sony F717 is as sharp as you could want out of the camera. However try sharpening it compared to an image from a D10 and the D10 wins hands down.

The price is going to have to be a lot cheaper than the D10 to compete IMHO.. By the time of release in October all the other manafacturers will have cameras ready there or there abouts. Talk of the Canon D3, Fuji are working on a new 12mp camera, Pentax have thier new system nearly ready and probably Nikon will have something in the pipeline. These camera makers also read the papers and preparing against Olympus's release I would think.

E1 does look a nice system but it should have been at least the same resolution as the D10, D100 etc. Time will tell if it's a success or not but I have already ruled out the E1 at Christmas unless it is a lot cheaper than the D10.

Howie
were all mad about the Canon 10D's photo softness; and many of them
are still complaining about the softness of their photos over at
the Canon SLR forum.

Photo quality: Oly's photo quality out of the camera has always
been outstanding, and I expect the new Oly to be even better. Man,
I took some photos of a friend for the cover of her new CD coming
out, and I'll tell you my E-20 is still a killer.

Price: The Canon 10D list is $1999, so the Oly's street price will
be somewhere in the range of Canon's 10D if not lower. Oly knows
what they’re up against; they read the news papers too you know.

Lens selection: Like many here have said, how many lenses do you
normally use? I bet most Canon users leave many of their lenses at
home. I'd love to have fewer lenses that cover the range, and that
do the job. I think most folks in the Canon forum are just lens
junkies, as many have admitted (“hay man, my lens is bigger than
your lens” blaa blaa blaa LOL). We live in an age of technology;
these camera manufacturers should be able to offer fewer lenses
with each being of superior quality and superior photographic range.

Sorry, just my 2 cents.
 
The price is going to have to be a lot cheaper than the D10 to
compete
So true...

Since we all know that the E-1 is "a lot cheaper" of a camera when you compare its specs to a 10D. Olympus spent 2 years developing a system that we all know is completely inferior to the superior "PRO" standards of a 10D.
By the time of release in October all the other
manafacturers will have cameras ready there or there abouts. Talk
of the Canon D3, Fuji are working on a new 12mp camera, Pentax have
thier new system nearly ready and probably Nikon will have
something in the pipeline. These camera makers also read the
papers and preparing against Olympus's release I would think.
So true... We all know that the specs on this new e-system are etched in stone and will never be improved upon, while all the other manufactures have been given divine permission to evolve and improve and produce 18 MP cameras in the next few months. And of course this 5 MP e-system will be the best that Oly will ever be able to do, because they haven't received divine permission to advance their designs in the future.

Just look at the D1. It was a 2.6 MP (if memory serves me) and PROs still use it. Then Nikon eventually made the D1x 5.47 MP which PROs use.

But of course we know that Olympus couldn't possible make an E-1x in the future, because they just can't!?!?, right?! I mean that would be immoral or something wouldn't it? I mean after all, those other manufacturers are allowed to advance, but Oly can't do that.

In short, all these arguments that in a year "everyone" will have $1000 12 MP full-frame dslrs, but poor stupid Oly will still have this pathetic 5 MP nonsense is so amusing. After all, it must be true because so many are saying it. I'll bet if we look hard enough, we can find the 'fine print' in Oly's press release where it says that "this is the best 4/3 camera that will ever be made & don't ever expect higher mega pixels from us."

Of course it's okay for nikon to make a D1 and then come out with a D1x later on. But no way could Oly ever do this. After all Oly has made a pact with the Devil stating that it will never improve on the 4/3 sensor technology.

;)
 
Agree with you t
The price is going to have to be a lot cheaper than the D10 to
compete
So true...
Since we all know that the E-1 is "a lot cheaper" of a camera when
you compare its specs to a 10D. Olympus spent 2 years developing a
system that we all know is completely inferior to the superior
"PRO" standards of a 10D.
No one said the Oly system was inferior to the D10. Your words not mine.!!!
By the time of release in October all the other
manafacturers will have cameras ready there or there abouts. Talk
of the Canon D3, Fuji are working on a new 12mp camera, Pentax have
thier new system nearly ready and probably Nikon will have
something in the pipeline. These camera makers also read the
papers and preparing against Olympus's release I would think.
So true... We all know that the specs on this new e-system are
etched in stone and will never be improved upon, while all the
other manufactures have been given divine permission to evolve and
improve and produce 18 MP cameras in the next few months. And of
course this 5 MP e-system will be the best that Oly will ever be
able to do, because they haven't received divine permission to
advance their designs in the future.
They are etched in stone with the E1 and when it is released in October it will be behind the rest of the Canon, Nikons etc. October, E1, 5MP, end of story!!!
Just look at the D1. It was a 2.6 MP (if memory serves me) and PROs
still use it. Then Nikon eventually made the D1x 5.47 MP which PROs
use.
The Pro's also owned their own Nikon lenses. Willl they give up the D1x for an E1? Will Canon Pro's give up their Eos 1D's for an E1, I don't think so!!! If the price of the E1 is more expensive than a D10, D100, S2 Pro, do I think more people will buy an E1, definately npt!!!
But of course we know that Olympus couldn't possible make an E-1x
in the future, because they just can't!?!?, right?! I mean that
would be immoral or something wouldn't it? I mean after all, those
other manufacturers are allowed to advance, but Oly can't do that.
Who said Olympus would not make an Ex or advance their camera? Oh yes, you quoted that and no one else!!!
In short, all these arguments that in a year "everyone" will have
$1000 12 MP full-frame dslrs, but poor stupid Oly will still have
this pathetic 5 MP nonsense is so amusing. After all, it must be
true because so many are saying it. I'll bet if we look hard
enough, we can find the 'fine print' in Oly's press release where
it says that "this is the best 4/3 camera that will ever be made &
don't ever expect higher mega pixels from us."
Strange you are the only person quoting that Olympus will have nothing in the pipeline in 12 months time. I referred to October when the E1 is released not 12 months down the road when I am sure Olympus will address all the issues already being discussed in this forum!!!
Of course it's okay for nikon to make a D1 and then come out with a
D1x later on. But no way could Oly ever do this. After all Oly has
made a pact with the Devil stating that it will never improve on
the 4/3 sensor technology.
The D1x has been out a long time now and was released after the D1 true. However, it was released in 2001 and I am sure Nikon have a newer pro model in the making which I would not be surprised to be released maybe end of the year. Again, you seem to like mentionng that Olympus will never improve on the 4/3 sensor technology. Obviously you must know Olympus personally :)
 
Open your MIND and read between the lines!

My entire post is sarcasm, which becomes very evident especially as you get to the ending with the ludicrous statements I made, not the least of which refers to a "pact with the Devil."

--Shakmatay
 
twas easy reading between the lines of sarcasm just thought I would pull out a few pointers, thats all :) By the way in case your unaware the saying goes "Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour".

:)
Open your MIND and read between the lines!

My entire post is sarcasm, which becomes very evident especially as
you get to the ending with the ludicrous statements I made, not the
least of which refers to a "pact with the Devil."

--Shakmatay
 
Hi Peter,

Nice to hear from someone who has used both. Could you expand your
comments a little please? It's not often reality creeps into these
comparisons and it's grealy appreciated.

David.
--

Hi David,

I am not sure what you want me to expand on but I will give it a try.

As far as the pixel count. Somehow this has gotten into a male macho thing where we have to have tons of pixels. At 6mp, my Canon 10D allows me to make commercial prints for sale up to 20x30. If something larger is needed, then I can concede that the 11mp 1Ds would be needed. But I can run my whole studio and never use my medium format film cameras anymore and just use my 2 10D cameras.

Also, the frame size of the 10D when printed, needs to be cropped. All 35mm negatives need to be cropped when printed. This needs to be done to fit the paper sizes of 16x20, 11x14, 8x10 & 5x7. When your crop these files to fit these commercial paper sizes you are effectively making the Canon 10D a 5mp camera. Cropping means "cutting out". If I cut the ends of my file size off enough to make an 8x10 print, then I have cut the 10D down to a 5mp camera.

The E1, already is just about at the 8x10 print size in the ratio of it's file. I don't need to cut off the ends of the file to make my prints. So in effect, I get to keep all of the 5mp pixels and the 10D and the E1 become almost a wash in the pixel department.

I will also say this, people who are printing directly out of PhotoShop are printing with at least 3 year old technology. How far have digital cameras progressed in the last 3 years? There are printing programs out there that take your prints to super high quality levels that PS can't even touch. A program like "Qimage" runs circles around PS for printing, yet it only costs $40.00.

I also mentioned camera performance. If I am doing a wedding or any kind of event, I need the camera to focus quickly and accurately. With the Canon 60, you needed to jump through all kinds of hoops and invent all kinds of workarounds to get it to focus properly. The E20 focuses much better than the D60. As soon as I had the opportunity I changed out of the D60. If the E1 gives you that feeling that it is a solid performer and can at least "grab" the picture, then it is a keeper. The 3 bulbs in it's AF light, and the ability to switch to the FL50 for focus assist makes it sound like there was thought given to this.

For high end hobbyists, this means when you shoot your kids parties, your camera will get shots indoors in lower light that the other digicams just will not be able to get. if the E1 operates at just digicam levels of performance, it will not be adapted by professionals and high end hobbyists.

Speaking of lower light. Lower light means flash for professionals. If you ever had the opportunity to shoot a Canon 10D or Canon 1D at 800 ISO with a flash unit that has a diffuser on it, you will know what I am talking about. It is almost like shooting at ISO 100 (or ISO 80) outside on a bright sunny day. The pictures come out excellent and professional and your mind is not worried about messing up the shots because of low lighting. At wedding receptions, or darker sporting events, this is absolutely necessary.

The quality level when shooting at ISO 800 also needs to be remarkable. The E20, at ISO 320, has a noise level of 2.51 in it's pictures. The Canon 10D at ISO 800, has a noise level of 2.1. At ISO 400 the 10D has a noise level 1.4. At ISO 1600 the 10D has a noise level of 2.4. ALL of the ISO noise levels of the 10D are lower than the E20's ISO 320. What is that about? The E1 needs to erase that and match the 10D. If I can't pump up the E1 to ISO 400 or 800 to get the light into the camera and come out with clean pictures to sell to my brides or corporations do you think I am going to add an E1 to my team? They will need to sell those 90,000 cameras to someone else - lol.

So what is appealing about the E1 when there are other high quality cameras on the market? First, the angle of light hitting the sensor. On 35mm cameras, the very center of the film or sensor has the light rays coming in on a straight line. As you move from the center, the light rays bend at an angle as they hit the film plane. The E1 has designed it's lenses so that the entire sensor has the light coming in on a straight path. The center, and all the way to the edges have the light rays coming in and hitting the sensor straight on. To do this with the 35mm lenses, you would need to design the sensor in a bowl shape for the light to hit every pixel at the same angle.

Next, the E1 with comparable lenses, is about 25% lighter to carry. As i am getting older, my neck is in a hurting way after carrying the camera for 5 hours at a wedding job. The light weight is definitely appealing as stupid as it sounds. High end hobbyist will appreciate this too, even if they don't have the chance to realize this point.

The E1 allows me to get into a weather resistant camera at a much lower price than the 1D, 1Ds and D1X. I can't cancel an event job because it is raining outside. And forget that point, I just hate it when my stuff gets wet just because I try to take excellent care of my equipment. With the E1, hopefully selling at $1600 area, I can have a weather proof camera. All I can say about weather, is welcome to Miami!

All these benefits require the E1 to deliver pictures at all ISO levels comparable to what I can buy today. if it can't, I can't afford to "like" the E1. But, on the other hand, what kind of a deal would it be if the E1 was BETTER than the 10D? Wow, it would have a very strong appeal to all market sectors and pro's and high end hobbyists alike.

So, I hope I expanded somewhat on what you were looking for. My fingers are getting tired - lol.

Pete
 
I found this camera to be a very nice addition to my inventory, I have been using my E20 at wedding for candid and as a backup for my MF work at wedding since the camera made to the shelf.

Price is not a big issue, is roughly equal to D10 and the like.

Here is what I like, same pixel count as the E20, so presumably I can use both cameras without having to worry about color issues on the pictures.

Since the E20 has the leaf shutter I can use that for outside flash with pictures.

Same accessories as the E20, I can use my FL40 and bracket.

Lightweigh, when you work wedding weight is a big issue, specially after 10 hours.

Splashproof design, normally I dont shoot underwater wedding but humidity is a big deal in DC and electronic tend to shut down due to condensation that builds inside the camera, a well seal camera is a nice thing to have.

As far as the lenses, one is plenty for what I do.

Just let me know where to send the money :-)
 
ARB1 wrote:
snipped
Photo quality: Oly's photo quality out of the camera has always
been outstanding, and I expect the new Oly to be even better. Man,
I took some photos of a friend for the cover of her new CD coming
out, and I'll tell you my E-20 is still a killer.
Which is why I sold my pricey D1x. Hell, it couldn't beat my E-10 and 20s for usable pictures straight from camera. And the E-10/20 had better colours! I then bought and am still using the S2 Pro for the same reason - great out-of-camera picture quality. I'd expect the E-1 to be the same!
 
I found this camera to be a very nice addition to my inventory, I
have been using my E20 at wedding for candid and as a backup for my
MF work at wedding since the camera made to the shelf.

Price is not a big issue, is roughly equal to D10 and the like.

Here is what I like, same pixel count as the E20, so presumably I
can use both cameras without having to worry about color issues on
the pictures.
Hugh, this is a different size chip and different Mfg., so things may not look the same.
Since the E20 has the leaf shutter I can use that for outside flash
with pictures.
Sorry again, but no leaf shutter here.
Same accessories as the E20, I can use my FL40 and bracket.
You are Ok here
Lightweigh, when you work wedding weight is a big issue, specially
after 10 hours.

Splashproof design, normally I dont shoot underwater wedding but
humidity is a big deal in DC and electronic tend to shut down due
to condensation that builds inside the camera, a well seal camera
is a nice thing to have.

As far as the lenses, one is plenty for what I do.

Just let me know where to send the money :-)
 
twas easy reading between the lines of sarcasm just thought I would
pull out a few pointers, thats all :) By the way in case your
unaware the saying goes "Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour".
--

Puns are the lowest form of humor, satire the highest and sarcasm is an attempt at humor. It works very much like camera R&D.

John Moreno
 
Actually, I thought not being funny was the WORST kind of humor.

Trees
twas easy reading between the lines of sarcasm just thought I would
pull out a few pointers, thats all :) By the way in case your
unaware the saying goes "Sarcasm is the lowest form of humour".
--
Puns are the lowest form of humor, satire the highest and sarcasm
is an attempt at humor. It works very much like camera R&D.

John Moreno
 
Bravo Shakmatay, Bravissimo !!

While all other manufacturers started their pro lineup with sub megapixel models, by divine ordainment Olympus was bound to the 5MP limit. True. If you look even carefully at the fine print, it says the E2 is going to be 3.8MP with even higher image quality. And the best of the lot, the E3 to be released in 2006, will have the highest image quality attainable within physical limits though only at 1.7MP.

-Tim
Shakmatay wrote:
So true... We all know that the specs on this new e-system are
etched in stone and will never be improved upon, while all the
other manufactures have been given divine permission to evolve and
improve and produce 18 MP cameras in the next few months. And of
course this 5 MP e-system will be the best that Oly will ever be
able to do, because they haven't received divine permission to
advance their designs in the future.

Just look at the D1. It was a 2.6 MP (if memory serves me) and PROs
still use it. Then Nikon eventually made the D1x 5.47 MP which PROs
use.

But of course we know that Olympus couldn't possible make an E-1x
in the future, because they just can't!?!?, right?! I mean that
would be immoral or something wouldn't it? I mean after all, those
other manufacturers are allowed to advance, but Oly can't do that.

In short, all these arguments that in a year "everyone" will have
$1000 12 MP full-frame dslrs, but poor stupid Oly will still have
this pathetic 5 MP nonsense is so amusing. After all, it must be
true because so many are saying it. I'll bet if we look hard
enough, we can find the 'fine print' in Oly's press release where
it says that "this is the best 4/3 camera that will ever be made &
don't ever expect higher mega pixels from us."

Of course it's okay for nikon to make a D1 and then come out with a
D1x later on. But no way could Oly ever do this. After all Oly has
made a pact with the Devil stating that it will never improve on
the 4/3 sensor technology.

;)
 
Price is not a big issue, is roughly equal to D10 and the like.

Here is what I like, same pixel count as the E20, so presumably I
can use both cameras without having to worry about color issues on
the pictures.
Hugh, this is a different size chip and different Mfg., so things
may not look the same.
I saw a comparison issue, the skin tones are close enought, at least they are not like an S2 and a D100
Since the E20 has the leaf shutter I can use that for outside flash
with pictures.
Sorry again, but no leaf shutter here.
I know that, I'm keeping the E20 for that type of shots, what I'm saying is that the E20 will become a nice complement to the E1.
 

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