Why is Sigma and Foveon still relevant for the serious amateur?

No David,

The point is that you can't throw out numbers like 99% facetiously. We don't know how much of Sigma's revenue is derived from selling lenses to owners of various brands or how much revenue is generated from selling Sigma lenses to Sigma owners. We can only assume that the more popular brands generate more revenue from Sigma and Quantaray lens sales.

You can't make the assertion that they need to make up an imaginary deficit by "selling an equal number of Sigma cameras." First of all, every Nikon and Canon and Sony and Olympus and so on camera that sells doesn't sell with a Sigma lens. If they sell with a "kit" lens it's one of the camera manufacturer's lenses. So declining sales of these brands do not necessarily mean that Sigma's lens sales are affected in direct proportion to declining industry sales of other brands. It's replacement lenses and additional lenses which are the mainstay of Sigma's business.

I think it's a good thing Sigma doesn't depend on your logic to survive in the lens business.

Lin
Forgive me again, Sigma make 99% of their revenue from selling lenses to Canon, Nikon and Sony owners....

This is getting ridiculous. The point is only that Sigma won't benefit from the decline in sales to owners of other brands unless they make up the shortfall by selling an equal number of Sigma cameras. And that ain't going to happen unless they transform the company into something very different. If the rest of the photographic industry dies, Sigma die with it, there's no point dreaming they will benefit.

--
"...while I am tempted to bludgeon you, I would rather have you come away with an improved understanding of how these sensors work" ---- Eric Fossum
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
 
B&W is not a technological limitation, it's an art form in its own right. It may have started as a limitation but sometimes a limitation turns out to be an opening to something wonderful. Colour and black & white photography are different things rather than poor relations...
 
Kodak for a short time had a monopoly on Nikon mount full frame cameras. They made a very bad job of it. I said (as I bought one of their cameras) "this is a really bad camera. The moment Nikon get past 6MP cameras, that'll be the end of Kodak Pro 35mm DSLRs". And it happened.

Sigma do indeed potentially face a problem: if one of the majors decides to embrace multi-layer sensors, the chances are, they'll do it an awful lot better than Sigma. Would Sigma be able to respond or would that scenario mean the end of the their camera adventure? All hypothetical at the moment but I imagine they have spent an evening or two pondering the scenario chez Sigma HQ.
 
They are certainly innovating like crazy at the moment. I'm not sure I would call Canon a photography company either in the sense I mean it. That is, a company that makes its living as a photographic vendor (rather than say a photocopier vendor) because first and foremost photography is what they live and breath. Photography is a small part of Sony and Canon; one feels they are companies that make and sell stuff, any stuff.

Photography focused companies seem thin on the ground these days except for smaller businesses. Nikon maybe fit the description of still being an optical company but they appear to be trying to diversify.

Sigma are interesting because they (allegedly) have plans for world domination in photography yet seem to be barely capable of manufacturing cameras at all! Are they committed or not? Domination by being last man standing in a moribund industry hardly seems a strategy.
 
I think that derives from the big difference in cost between colour and B&W films and papers. Also, it is much easier for a beginner to process B&W than colour.

At the serious art schools we still start with the fundamentals and that is B&W film photography.
It seems absurd to say that this is still fundamental in 2014. Why not glass plates and collodion ?
There is also a year of digital photography required today. There wasn't when I attended.
It has nothing to do with ease. When I was in grad school at Johns Hopkins I spent what little spare time I had with my camera. I had a dark room in my closet and bathroom. Photography was a way to relax and unwind from the rigors of the intensity of my studies. Someone after seeing some of my work suggest I get some formal training so I went down to the Maryland Institute and College of Art to see about auditing some courses. The person I talked to told me that my work was "raw" which it was but "had potential." Since I had all the basic college courses, English Composition, Philosophy, etc. to satisfy the basics why didn't I just enter as a degree student since I would get credit for these courses. I did - spending many a night there. It was actually a break from my graduate studies. I ended up in about three years with a PhD (mathematical physics ) from Hopkins and a BFA from MIAC. Of course the math/physics degree paid more so that was my career path although I never quite gave up my photography.

However, what I learned at MIAC has been indispensable both in how I approach life and my appreciation of all art forms including photography.

The core art courses have noting to do with photography. They have to do with the history of art, sculpture and drawing. Form, composition and lighting are common in all art forms and history gives you a perspective of the evolution of these concepts and sculpture and drawing are good ways to develop you own sense. I suck at drawing but I made it anyway.

This is no different than a person going to a performing arts school like Juilliard or a music institute like Peabody. There is a lot you have to lean other than just playing a piano or banjo and if you master all you need to learn you will be able to play the piano and/or banjo much better.

In photography the lower levels concentrate on these three concepts while introducing how they are realized with a tool of a camera and lens. The key base courses here are history of photography and B&W film photography. There is no better way to develop these concepts in a photographic sense than B&W film. With B&W film you also develop the end to end process from the visualization of what you want to say with the image to the final realization in a print you tack on the wall.

The B&W process is fairly easy to learn and master which means the process doesn't get in the way of learning the important aspects of the art - form, composition and lighting. With B&W there are only three things - form, composition and lighting color doesn't exist to distract. With a firm foundation in this discipline you are ready to master other aspects from studio lighting, to color to now the digital tools and various forms of photography, advertising to landscape. However, at the end of the day without the proper foundation in the basics of form, composition and lighting - you won't get far in any art form - photography or otherwise.

I chose a landscape project for my senior project. My advisor and mentor was M. Richard Kirstel who studied under Minor White after spending part of the Korean war as a war photographer for the Navy. He was also a good friend of W. Eugene Smith who he had down on several occasions. He said - "I thought it would be Baltimore streets but landscape it is" and gave me the assignment of telling a story and making a statement about a local toxic waste dump. Not you typical landscape gig but I will say very challenging and very interesting.

As a tribute to my mentor


Caution some nudity and some potentially disturbing images. Some of his work did end up in a US Supreme Court case.

Notice in the portfolio "Florida" this is one of the few times he used a 35 mm camera. He took these shots of old folks as some say "coming to Florida to die" with a 35 mm using TriX and a very contrasty high grain developer. and extensive selenium toning of the prints. You think he was sending a message which was part subject and part interpretation? Of course he was. Isn't that the role of art in society.

As David said - B&W film is alive and well as a very vital art form. There are still new films introduced and there are third parities that produce the iconic films of the past. There are small companies that produce the old iconic developers plus new developers are being developed even now. British photographer Barry Thronton who has passed form us was a pioneer in new B&W developer technology.

You can find his developments anything else you want for black and white film at Photographer's Formulary.

I still do some film primarily using my Mamiya 645 and my 4x5. I, however, can produce effects with film and such highly dilute developers such as Rodinal (a very old formula) that I have yet figured out how to do with digital because while such tools as Silver Efex Pro are good - they aren't that good yet.

However, at the end of the day any camera (digital or film), film developer, paper (wet darkroom or inkjet printer ) is a tool used to express an emotion, tell a story or communicate a message from the photographer to the viewer and it is expressed in form, composition and lighting. Long after I am dead I a sure in the fine galleries of Carmel CA, Santa Fe, N.M, Baltimore, MD, Washington, DC, New York City, London, etc there will be fine are black and white prints hanging from the walls.
 
What camera makers should be doing is building smartphone shareability features into cameras, like Thom Hogan suggests.

Samsung. And the cameras ain't bad, either.
 
Yes. Who knows the future of APS-C, but now Pentax at least has a range of DSLRs. I've often thought Sigma never another DSLR model r two-a system with only one model extant at a time doesn't make sense to me.
 
Kodak for a short time had a monopoly on Nikon mount full frame cameras. They made a very bad job of it. I said (as I bought one of their cameras) "this is a really bad camera. The moment Nikon get past 6MP cameras, that'll be the end of Kodak Pro 35mm DSLRs". And it happened.

Sigma do indeed potentially face a problem: if one of the majors decides to embrace multi-layer sensors, the chances are, they'll do it an awful lot better than Sigma.
Really? Because they have a history of doing everything they do "an awful lot better than Sigma" right? Like making lenses. Hmmm . . .

Please . . . tell me what lens canon makes that is better than the Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art. (. . . which costs less than $1,000 - we can all imagine what the price would have been if such a lens had been made by Nikon or Canon)
Would Sigma be able to respond or would that scenario mean the end of the their camera adventure?
Sigma seems to be able to compete in the lens arena, and I dare say they will be able to compete in the camera arena too. So far their sales seem to have been growing. Instead of one or two models, they now have four models that produce very good image quality at ISO settings up to and including ISO 800. Maybe in a few years they will have 5 or six models. Photography is not going away. There will ALWAYS be people who want to shoot photos. I think Sigma will be in business for many many years to come. Even if someone develops a multi-layer sensor, I don't think they'll do it better than Sigma.

Slow and steady wins the race, and it seems to me that Sigma has been slow and steady (certainly slow). Hopefully they will become more and more steady. They've been in business since I was a kid, so it's not like they're a newcomer, who doesn't know what's going on.
All hypothetical at the moment but I imagine they have spent an evening or two pondering the scenario chez Sigma HQ.

--
"...while I am tempted to bludgeon you, I would rather have you come away with an improved understanding of how these sensors work" ---- Eric Fossum
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
 
Yes. Who knows the future of APS-C, but now Pentax at least has a range of DSLRs. I've often thought Sigma never another DSLR model r two-a system with only one model extant at a time doesn't make sense to me.
Well, there are camera companies that make smaller cameras, and they only larger sensor they put in cameras is the 4/3 size sensor. At least Sigma didn't decide to step back to that size. They make an APS-C size sensor, and they seem to be sticking with it. It will be nice to see a full-frame camera from them, if they ever make one. Maybe they won't though. Like you though, I don't think having only one camera at a time makes much sense, if they want to grow their market share. I'd like to see at least two . . . a faster one, with a little larger size and more features, and a smaller, more budget-minded one, with a lower price . . . like the difference between the Nikon 3xxx and 5xxx cameras, but at a higher level. I'd also like to see a truly professional level Sigma DSLR, that might be a little less money than the Nikon D4s or the Canon 1Dx, but competitive in features and quality. It would be great to see a full-frame Sigma for about $3,000 after they make the SD1 Quattro DSLR and sell it for about $2,000. Then they could gradually drop the price of the SD1 Quattro and introduce a camera that's faster than it (maybe with the same sensor though) for about $500 more. They could have APS-C DSLR bodies priced at $1,799 and $2,199 and a full-frame DSLR for $2,999. THAT would be a line-up.

If you're wondering what that more expensive DSLR could do/offer/have that would make it worth $400 more than the SD1 Quattro, here's a list:

Faster shooting (8 fps instead of 5 or 6 fps)

Faster image processing (3 seconds per raw+jpg shot instead of 5 seconds per shot)

Bigger buffer (30 frames instead of 20, for shooting lots of raw photos - sports shooters could use it)

Better fast focusing (enough to keep up to a Nikon D7100 - I doubt the SD1 Quattro will do this)

Wi-fi and GPS built into the camera (I doubt Sigma will add this to the SD1 Quattro.)

Two UHS-2 SD card slots (I believe the SD1 Quattro will have a UDMA 7 CF card slot.)

This is a dream feature that the SD1 Quattro will not have - fold out screen for live-view shooting

There are surely other features that people will want, after Sigma puts them into their full-frame camera, if they ever make one after they make their Quattro DSLR, so some of those features could be put in their premium APS-C DSLR.
 
Kodak for a short time had a monopoly on Nikon mount full frame cameras. They made a very bad job of it. I said (as I bought one of their cameras) "this is a really bad camera. The moment Nikon get past 6MP cameras, that'll be the end of Kodak Pro 35mm DSLRs". And it happened.

Sigma do indeed potentially face a problem: if one of the majors decides to embrace multi-layer sensors, the chances are, they'll do it an awful lot better than Sigma.
Really? Because they have a history of doing everything they do "an awful lot better than Sigma" right? Like making lenses. Hmmm . . .

Please . . . tell me what lens canon makes that is better than the Sigma 50mm f1.4 Art. (. . . which costs less than $1,000 - we can all imagine what the price would have been if such a lens had been made by Nikon or Canon)
Would Sigma be able to respond or would that scenario mean the end of the their camera adventure?
Sigma seems to be able to compete in the lens arena, and I dare say they will be able to compete in the camera arena too. So far their sales seem to have been growing. Instead of one or two models, they now have four models that produce very good image quality at ISO settings up to and including ISO 800. Maybe in a few years they will have 5 or six models. Photography is not going away. There will ALWAYS be people who want to shoot photos. I think Sigma will be in business for many many years to come. Even if someone develops a multi-layer sensor, I don't think they'll do it better than Sigma.

Slow and steady wins the race, and it seems to me that Sigma has been slow and steady (certainly slow). Hopefully they will become more and more steady. They've been in business since I was a kid, so it's not like they're a newcomer, who doesn't know what's going on.
All hypothetical at the moment but I imagine they have spent an evening or two pondering the scenario chez Sigma HQ.
 
The "forum experts" have been predicting Sigma's downfall since the SD9 was introduced. A veritable plethora of comments about how Sigma was doomed to fail has inundated the forum by a number of doomsday soothsayers. When their prophetic declarations fail to materialize, they slink away for a few months then return each time a new model is introduced with yet more pearls of wisdom. It's been twelve years now and danged, Sigma's still around - LOL - So it continues ....

Best regards,

Lin
 
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This is all relative. though. The reviews show the position pretty convincingly. I think.
The reviews all say the image quality is awesome at low ISO. I can't remember one that complained about color shifts.

So, I guess they DO all show a position pretty convincingly. Mine.
There may be no truly accurate cameras but Foveon colours deviate more on average and are prone to occasional total misfires more than other cameras.
And off you go.
There has also been historical issues with colour casts, Italian flag problems and unreliable white balance. And these problems vary between models and even cameras in a way that you don't see with other cameras.
I see them with other cameras all the time.
In my experience of Sigma cameras, my SD9 is all over the place, the SD14 has a built in yellow/green colour cast and while my DP1 seemed much more conventional, it really struggled to render reds properly, usually swinging to orange or to flourescent magenta. My DP2M seems better but it has its colour quirks, not least of which is that shadow regjons appear to render in black and white.
That's not strictly a color shift though, that's a loss of saturation.

I'll not deny the SD-9 colors could go a little wild at times. But with the right white balance and color mode the colors usually look pretty good, from the SD-14 on.

Having a less accurate auto WB out of camera is not the same issue as having the colors go off.
 
Sony do most of these things.

They even sell cameras without viewfinders or LCDs, for use with a phone as the screen. You can either clip the camera onto a phone, or put it on a tripod several metres away.
That isn't what I'm talking about though (although I do admire the concept of attaching a camera to a phone to take advantage of the higher LCD quality of the modern smartphone.

It's not really a distinct camera that has good smartphone integration, it's a symbiote that requires a smartphone to function.
 
What camera makers should be doing is building smartphone shareability features into cameras, like Thom Hogan suggests.
You can already do that with EyeFi cards.

However I think that's not really what anyone would use. I'm talking about more of a device as and extended processor for the camera with additional sensors (GPS, sound, motion, etc) to add interesting metadata for photos, or additional possibility for control.

Sharing a photo straight of a DSLR seems like madness since working with a real camera means I'd also like to edit before sharing. The phone is for snapshots, not a real camera.
 
Some people are very keen on Foveon colour, calling it "film like" and so on.

I'm not. What I feel subjectively is that when I swap from viewing Foveon images to Bayer images, is the Bayer images look more realistic and "natural" while the Foveon images have a "character".

This is not all the time, I stress, sometimes the Foveon colours look no different, but across a range of subjects, lighting and styles I get this feeling. This is not a bad thing as such, what makes good colour is subjective, but there is a difference often and I find that viewing lots of images I get a more reliable sense of colour from Bayer. YMMV as the say...
 
I've seen this expression "auditing" a course a few times on American websites. What can it mean?

I work for an audit institution and our role is to certify that the accounts show a true and fair view of the transactions that occurred during the year to a given confidence level within appropriate materiality limits.

What has this got to do with taking an educational course? Nothing, I guess, so it must mean something else in this context.

Anyone care to explain?
 
This explains why the digital camera industry is in decline. 99.9999999% of all photos are snapshots.

The number of people who consider themselves "serious" photographers is very small compared to the number of people in a position to buy electronic goods. Probably most of the digital cameras ever bought were not necessary purchases, merely vanity sales.

As serious photographers I suppose we can be very grateful for this as the mass market sales have driven prices down to affordable levels for serious photographers - especially those who may not have a lot of cash to spare.

Presumably the mass market will soon move on to other gadgets and the ranks of photographers who consider themselves keener than snapshotters will fall back more towards what it was in the film era.
 
It's an amusing dream I suppose.

Perhaps Sigma should make medium format cameras. That way they could charge what they want and their issues would not stand out as much as in the APS-C market.
 

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