Comparing E-mount zooms (Part 1)

Timbukto · Sep 4, 2014

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

16-70 - junk

18-200 - surprisingly good very impressed

18-55 - ok, above average compared to the 16-70 and 50mm 1.8 which should have been better

55-210 - good.

Always be demanding of your glass and don't accept crap copies because I sure don't. Talks about this being out of DOF is ridiculous...I've shot edge to edge sharper on a FF at wider apertures and longer focal lengths. You are shooting long distance, well-stopped down on a APS-C crop....DOF is not an issue here.

I really want to get into Sony E-mount and want a 50mm 1.8 but if I ever bought a copy like yours that shot that at f6+, I'd run away. I also experienced just 'so-so' copies of the Olympus 45mm 1.8. I can demonstrate excellent edge to edge sharpness with my Canon 85mm 1.8 or 50mm 1.4 near wide open.

Also my EOS-M has a terrible performing body, but I absolutely know its 22mm pancake at wide open will outperform most of these.

Assuming Kurt Munger did not cherry pick his borders/corners I would want my 50mm 1.8 to perform like what is shown in his review which is quite good.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

Timbukto said:
I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Michael Everett · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
Timbukto said:

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Click to expand...

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Do you have both or are you another Nex 7 person trying to justify not having the A6000. I have both, and I can tell you the A6000 performs just as well on the lenses I have, including the Touit 32 and the Sigma 60, which I believe have the best IQ of any E-mount lenses period.

audiobomber · Sep 5, 2014

The upper right corner looks soft in the a6000 photo, so either you did something wrong or the camera is defective. You should do some more testing.

Timbukto · Sep 5, 2014

Michael Everett said:
Digital Nigel said:

Timbukto said:

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Click to expand...

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Do you have both or are you another Nex 7 person trying to justify not having the A6000. I have both, and I can tell you the A6000 performs just as well on the lenses I have, including the Touit 32 and the Sigma 60, which I believe have the best IQ of any E-mount lenses period.

That's nice, but this isn't about you and your gear. Unless he manipulated EXIF or had someone else who owns these camera's shoot these banal test shots, I'm pretty sure he has both. Your passive-aggressive and over-defensive nature is gross to read.

He is posting full-size images with exif's intact, and you are making claims without such things. I prefer the images which speaks more useful words than your post.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

audiobomber said:
The upper right corner looks soft in the a6000 photo, so either you did something wrong or the camera is defective. You should do some more testing.

Yes, I will do more testing at shallower apertures with prime lenses when I get a chance (I'm about to go off on a trip), but it does look like the a6000 is defective.

osv · Sep 5, 2014

Timbukto said:
Timbukto said:

Timbukto said:

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Do you have both or are you another Nex 7 person trying to justify not having the A6000. I have both, and I can tell you the A6000 performs just as well on the lenses I have, including the Touit 32 and the Sigma 60, which I believe have the best IQ of any E-mount lenses period.

Click to expand...

That's nice, but this isn't about you and your gear. Unless he manipulated EXIF or had someone else who owns these camera's shoot these banal test shots, I'm pretty sure he has both. Your passive-aggressive and over-defensive nature is gross to read.

calm down.

he's obviously responding to the "cheaply-made a6000" comment, which was below the belt.

Timbukto · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
Timbukto said:

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Click to expand...

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Your framing is not the same, but assuming it is close enough, yes the differences are striking. In addition I don't consider f4.5 at 50mm with a crop to be really that thin anyhow...I expect a $90 Canon crap nifty fifty to actually be sharp edge to edge stopped down past f4 for sure on a flat plane.

Timbukto · Sep 5, 2014

osv said:
Timbukto said:

osv said:

osv said:

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Do you have both or are you another Nex 7 person trying to justify not having the A6000. I have both, and I can tell you the A6000 performs just as well on the lenses I have, including the Touit 32 and the Sigma 60, which I believe have the best IQ of any E-mount lenses period.

Click to expand...

That's nice, but this isn't about you and your gear. Unless he manipulated EXIF or had someone else who owns these camera's shoot these banal test shots, I'm pretty sure he has both. Your passive-aggressive and over-defensive nature is gross to read.

Click to expand...

calm down.

he's obviously responding to the "cheaply-made a6000" comment, which was below the belt.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

Michael Everett said:
Digital Nigel said:

Timbukto said:

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Click to expand...

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Do you have both or are you another Nex 7 person trying to justify not having the A6000. I have both, and I can tell you the A6000 performs just as well on the lenses I have, including the Touit 32 and the Sigma 60, which I believe have the best IQ of any E-mount lenses period.

Of course I own both these cameras and lots of E-mount lenses. Why would I bother to shoot shabby garage doors just for fun or to prove a point about a camera I hadn't bought? Have you looked at my gear list? And, no, I don't go round trying to find fault with products I've bought -- I've never had a faulty camera before.

There are things I don't like about the a6000 compared to the NEX-7, but I wasn't expecting unsharp images to be one of them. If you look at the beginning of this thread and its three follow ups , I started out comparing zoom lenses on the a6000. Specifically, I was looking at how my cheap new 55-210 lens compared to more expensive zooms and a well respected prime; I didn't even take my NEX-7 with me that day, as I wasn't expecting the new camera to be the weak link. It was when a test shot accidentally had a wider aperture that the problem started to emerge, so I did this follow-up test, this time comparing the apparently problematic prime lens on both my new and my well-used old camera.

Now I know the problem is with the camera, I'd like to discover if my copy is defective, or if this is a common fault. So perhaps you could post a wide aperture OOC test shot with your primes? If yours is perfect, I'll know it's my camera that has the fault, and I'll contact Sony.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

Timbukto said:
Digital Nigel said:

Timbukto said:

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Click to expand...

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Your framing is not the same, but assuming it is close enough, yes the differences are striking. In addition I don't consider f4.5 at 50mm with a crop to be really that thin anyhow...I expect a $90 Canon crap nifty fifty to actually be sharp edge to edge stopped down past f4 for sure on a flat plane.

Agreed. When I get a chance to try some test shots at f/1.8 I expect the effect to be much more dramatic. It's just that I thought I was comparing lenses, not cameras, and I just took the old NEX along as a benchmark. I'm glad I did.

Timbukto · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
Now I know the problem is with the camera, I'd like to discover if my copy is defective, or if this is a common fault. So perhaps you could post a wide aperture OOC test shot with your primes? If yours is perfect, I'll know it's my camera that has the fault, and I'll contact Sony.

Perhaps your question was facetious but you obviously should contact Sony irregardless of someone else backing up their claims. IMO a Canon rebel shooting a $90 plastic crap 50mm 1.8 stopped down to f4.5 is going to yield sharp edge to edge for anything within DOF.

Timbukto · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
Timbukto said:

Digital Nigel said:

Timbukto said:

I find it humorous how every time you post picture of obviously not so good Sony lenses, people will make up all sorts of crap...oh not enough DOF...parts are in shadows, blah blah.

I will judge your pics based on my own standards of what I know from Canon or MFT glass I've owned.

50mm 1.8 - junk

Click to expand...

Maybe on the a6000, but it's a lot sharper on the NEX-7. Here's two shots I took this morning at f/4.5, using a tripod, of a tatty garage door. Both had AWB set, so the colour difference is very surprising (normally I shoot RAW, so I don't care).

a6000, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

NEX-7, f/4.5, 50mm prime lens

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Your framing is not the same, but assuming it is close enough, yes the differences are striking. In addition I don't consider f4.5 at 50mm with a crop to be really that thin anyhow...I expect a $90 Canon crap nifty fifty to actually be sharp edge to edge stopped down past f4 for sure on a flat plane.

Click to expand...

Agreed. When I get a chance to try some test shots at f/1.8 I expect the effect to be much more dramatic. It's just that I thought I was comparing lenses, not cameras, and I just took the old NEX along as a benchmark. I'm glad I did.

With a problem like that you would have found it sooner or later, so far better that it is sooner. I do not believe in the 'just go out and shoot' camp with today's QC problems unless you really want to take that fantastic image that could have been unmarred by QC problems had you perform the manufacturer's QC for them (which is sadly what seems to be the norm nowadays).

You can see in this recent LensRental article how badly a decentered lens will test -

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/09/just-the-lenses-canon-vs-nikon-zooms-at-70mm

Too bad you are overseas but I think it would be an utterly amazing thing if LensRentals started accepting testing for gear users think is defective, and then Roger and crew can go through and see how many claims are actually spurious, vs how many are absolutely true and indicate pretty shoddy QC (or shipping!). Or for problems like yours he might be able to isolate it down to the lens or body, etc. Of course what you should probably do is just get Sony to exchange it, but it would be nice for Roger to open shop for 'QC' teardowns.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

osv said:
Timbukto said:

osv said:

osv said:

So, yes, the problem is certainly with Sony hardware, but it seems to be with with the cheaply-made a6000 camera, rather than the lenses, which perform pretty well on the higher quality NEX07.

Click to expand...

Do you have both or are you another Nex 7 person trying to justify not having the A6000. I have both, and I can tell you the A6000 performs just as well on the lenses I have, including the Touit 32 and the Sigma 60, which I believe have the best IQ of any E-mount lenses period.

Click to expand...

That's nice, but this isn't about you and your gear. Unless he manipulated EXIF or had someone else who owns these camera's shoot these banal test shots, I'm pretty sure he has both. Your passive-aggressive and over-defensive nature is gross to read.

Click to expand...

calm down.

he's obviously responding to the "cheaply-made a6000" comment, which was below the belt.

Even ignoring this defect, the a6000 does feel like a much cheaper camera than the old NEX-7. And it is -- the price is far below what the NEX-7 was when new or indeed, until recently. I assume that reflects lower manufacturing costs for Sony.

I'd forgive that if the image quality equalled or beat the 2011 model NEX-7 as it does have some improved features (PDAF, menus, apps, etc). And until doing these boring tests, I just assumed that the IQ was the same. Now I know better, of course I'm disappointed.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

Timbukto said:
Digital Nigel said:

Now I know the problem is with the camera, I'd like to discover if my copy is defective, or if this is a common fault. So perhaps you could post a wide aperture OOC test shot with your primes? If yours is perfect, I'll know it's my camera that has the fault, and I'll contact Sony.

Click to expand...

Perhaps your question was facetious but you obviously should contact Sony irregardless of someone else backing up their claims. IMO a Canon rebel shooting a $90 plastic crap 50mm 1.8 stopped down to f4.5 is going to yield sharp edge to edge for anything within DOF.

Yes, I'll contact Sony when I get back, and won't make much use of the a6000 on the trip, if I take it at all (it may be OK with wide angle lenses, with their generous DoF). I'm certainly glad I still have my trusty old NEX-7. It was going to be relegated to being my back-up camera, but now it's the other way round.

forpetessake · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
osv said:

Digital Nigel said:

Erik Magnuson said:

Appreciate the effort, but the contrast/color is more impacted here by the changing light than the lenses which makes detailed comparison somewhat pointless.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the problem with outdoor, rather than studio, shots. But it doesn't stop sharpness from being compared.

Click to expand...

true to a large extent, but contrast does play a role in perceived sharpness:

http://www.photozone.de/mtf

the biggest problem, tho, was using mismatched aperture settings.

hopefully you didn't use autofocus.

Click to expand...

Yes, I did use autofocus, as I always would in practice. It wasn't exactly a difficult scene to focus on for the camera.

If the differences were dramatic, then I would say AF doesn't matter. But the differences are small, and in my testing AF can easily affect the resolution by 5-10% from shot to shot. Unfortunately, all those lenses are focusing by wire, so manual focus is a pain. In this situation I would take 5 or more pictures for each lens with AF on and select the best one for comparison.

forpetessake · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
There are things I don't like about the a6000 compared to the NEX-7, but I wasn't expecting unsharp images to be one of them.

But nobody has yet demonstrated in controlled tests that the two had different resolution. You are probably comparing OOC jpegs. Also your AF, IS can vary from shot to shot. If the differences between the cameras were big, I would say the testing setup didn't matter, but the differences are minute, so you have to go through a rigorous testing procedure to make valid conclusions.

forpetessake · Sep 5, 2014

Digital Nigel said:
Erik Magnuson said:

Appreciate the effort, but the contrast/color is more impacted here by the changing light than the lenses which makes detailed comparison somewhat pointless.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the problem with outdoor, rather than studio, shots. But it doesn't stop sharpness from being compared.

Oh, yes, it does! Have you ever experimented with the software sharpening? The contrast plays the major role in perceptual sharpness, it's far more important than the extinction resolution. I would choose high contrast lens on any day over a high resolution low contrast one. I've seen many old lenses with an excellent resolution which looked soft because of the low contrast. If you look at some places in your pictures with similar contrast the perception of which lens is sharper can be different than when you look at the same places with low and high contrast.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

forpetessake said:
Digital Nigel said:

osv said:

Digital Nigel said:

Erik Magnuson said:

Appreciate the effort, but the contrast/color is more impacted here by the changing light than the lenses which makes detailed comparison somewhat pointless.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the problem with outdoor, rather than studio, shots. But it doesn't stop sharpness from being compared.

Click to expand...

true to a large extent, but contrast does play a role in perceived sharpness:

http://www.photozone.de/mtf

the biggest problem, tho, was using mismatched aperture settings.

hopefully you didn't use autofocus.

Click to expand...

Yes, I did use autofocus, as I always would in practice. It wasn't exactly a difficult scene to focus on for the camera.

Click to expand...

If the differences were dramatic, then I would say AF doesn't matter. But the differences are small, and in my testing AF can easily affect the resolution by 5-10% from shot to shot. Unfortunately, all those lenses are focusing by wire, so manual focus is a pain. In this situation I would take 5 or more pictures for each lens with AF on and select the best one for comparison.

If you look at the later brown garage door images I posted, it's clear that the problem is with the camera, with the right side of wider aperture images soft with the a6000, but pretty sharp with the NEX-7. In both cases, the cameras had focused properly on the centre of the image. I suspect that the a6000 sensor isn't properly seated (and, no, I've never cleaned it).

When I get chance, I'll try some wide aperture test shots, where I expect the difference to be very clear. But in day to day use, where many shots are taken at narrow apertures, and the edges don't need to be so sharp, the problem isn't really apparent, which is why I hadn't previously noticed it. But I was already beginning to suspect that my a6000 images weren't as sharp as my NEX-7 images with the same lenses. Now I know why.

Digital Nigel · Sep 5, 2014

forpetessake said:
Digital Nigel said:

osv said:

Digital Nigel said:

Erik Magnuson said:

Appreciate the effort, but the contrast/color is more impacted here by the changing light than the lenses which makes detailed comparison somewhat pointless.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's the problem with outdoor, rather than studio, shots. But it doesn't stop sharpness from being compared.

Click to expand...

true to a large extent, but contrast does play a role in perceived sharpness:

http://www.photozone.de/mtf

the biggest problem, tho, was using mismatched aperture settings.

hopefully you didn't use autofocus.

Click to expand...

Yes, I did use autofocus, as I always would in practice. It wasn't exactly a difficult scene to focus on for the camera.

Click to expand...

If the differences were dramatic, then I would say AF doesn't matter. But the differences are small, and in my testing AF can easily affect the resolution by 5-10% from shot to shot. Unfortunately, all those lenses are focusing by wire, so manual focus is a pain. In this situation I would take 5 or more pictures for each lens with AF on and select the best one for comparison.

Just look at the 50mm f4.5 images above. The NEX and a6000 images were equally well focused and sharp at the centre, but the a6000 image was clearly softer at the edges, especially the righthand side. I'm sure this will be even clearer when I get a chance to shoot some wider aperture test shots.

Comparing E-mount zooms (Part 1)

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