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Thoughts: D610 vs D7100

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Ontario Gone

Ontario Gone

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So after much debating, im down to a few cameras (upgrading from a GX7 in MFT). Here's the deal. I can stretch my money and likely get a D610, but won't have much left for lenses, I would likely only get the 50 1.8 for the next several months. A D7100 would allow me to get another high quality lens and a few things like grip and spare battery. Pretending the lenses aren't an issue, and only comparing the cameras, here are my thoughts.

My question revolves around two features, (FYI im asking here in the FF section because I figured D610 owners were more likely to have owned a D7100 rather than the other way around). First, is the AF on the D7100 (51pt) going to be much, if any, better than the D610? If so, in what ways? Secondly, with the same resolution and the LPF missing on the D7100, can it come close to the resolutions at lower ISO as the 610? (with same lenses attached).

Surprisingly my wife wants me to get whichever is "better", even if it means spending more on the FF. But, I shoot a lot of low ISO, specifically with flash, and having been a former K5IIs owner I know that the AA missing helps with resolution when all other factors are clean. So at base ISO, will that missing AA help even things out, or will the D610 offer more detail simply from a larger sensor with higher SNR?

If there's anything else that should be mentioned please do. Im aware the SNR of the D610 at base ISO is a good chunk higher than the 7100 (DXO says 45.5 vs 41.7), but it's hard to guess how much a difference that will make up for when one has AA and the other doesn't. FYI I am a proud pixel peeper and tend to crop a lot, which is why im somewhat concerned with low ISO fine detail. Again, I know most agree that I should worry more about lenses, and that will be taken care of, my questions are only concerning comparing the cameras with the same lenses. Thanks in advance!!
 
Besides pixel peeping in low light, what do you shoot? Action, wildlife sports macro, landscape? That should determine the camera. I have both and prefer the 610 for low light and the 7100 for sports and wildlife. Either way good lenses are important.
 
Ontario Gone said:
My question revolves around two features, (FYI im asking here in the FF section because I figured D610 owners were more likely to have owned a D7100 rather than the other way around). First, is the AF on the D7100 (51pt) going to be much, if any, better than the D610? If so, in what ways?
Click to expand...
Can't comment on the D610 or D7100, but I can comment on the Df (39 point AF) versus D800/D800E (51 point AF).

I found the 51 point AF is more sensitive in low light. I'm not saying the Df is bad in low light, but I have had experience while shooting Relay for Life events in low light that the D800/D800E AF performed with no issues in single point CF mode even with f/4.0 glass, while the Df required f/2.8 glass or faster and 9 point dynamic area AF in CF mode or shoot in single point AS mode with red led beam from flash for focus assist.
 
Laslo Varadi said:
Besides pixel peeping in low light, what do you shoot? Action, wildlife sports macro, landscape? That should determine the camera. I have both and prefer the 610 for low light and the 7100 for sports and wildlife. Either way good lenses are important.
Click to expand...
My plan is pretty basic. I have 4 Yongnuo 560III flashes, I plan to do a lot of flash work and get better at quality shots for friends and family (my goal is to approach pro level work in time, but more for a hobby than to make money. Need experience and practice though). Aside from flash, I have two little ones who move very quickly and will need good tracking hence my move from the GX7.

As for lenses, I am going to grab a walk around lens and a portrait lens to start, the walk around for a D7100 would be the 35 1.8, for FF it would be the 50 1.8. The Sigma 70 2.8 macro will serve as my portrait and macro for either format. I don't shoot much landscape or tele so those lenses can wait till I research more on them.

I used to be more into noise performance but as I have refined my preferences towards higher detail it has pushed me more and more to lower ISO and flash when I can, so it basically comes down to that for IQ and the AF systems. The dark horse that I have been considering is the K3 which is very similar to the D7100. My only concern with the Pentax is how it's AF stacks up against the Nikon. 27 focus points (25 cross type) vs 51 (19 cross type if I remember), but there's more to AF than a number. The IQ of the two are very similar.

Anyway there is my basic uses and needs, im mostly interested in AF capability and base ISO resolutions, with the lenses I mentioned above. I can honestly say I doubt I will ever spend $2k on any lens, so that isn't really a factor here.
 
To the OP: The ONLY question here is FX vs. DX sensor. The rest of this discussion is just noise among this one real signal.
 
IMO, in this situation, you buy FX if you want to push shallow depth of field or if you want to push high ISO.

If you want/need the more advanced AF, or if you want the reach (birds?) and to save money, you get the D7100.
 
Save up a couple of hundred more dollars and get the D800e from a seller with 100% feedback for about $2000 on Ebay with very few clicks and get the whole enchilada. You'll thank me later...
 
Laslo Varadi said:
Besides pixel peeping in low light, what do you shoot? Action, wildlife sports macro, landscape? That should determine the camera. I have both and prefer the 610 for low light and the 7100 for sports and wildlife. Either way good lenses are important.
Click to expand...
 
Ontario Gone said:
So after much debating, im down to a few cameras (upgrading from a GX7 in MFT). Here's the deal. I can stretch my money and likely get a D610, but won't have much left for lenses, I would likely only get the 50 1.8 for the next several months. A D7100 would allow me to get another high quality lens and a few things like grip and spare battery. Pretending the lenses aren't an issue, and only comparing the cameras, here are my thoughts.

My question revolves around two features, (FYI im asking here in the FF section because I figured D610 owners were more likely to have owned a D7100 rather than the other way around). First, is the AF on the D7100 (51pt) going to be much, if any, better than the D610? If so, in what ways? Secondly, with the same resolution and the LPF missing on the D7100, can it come close to the resolutions at lower ISO as the 610? (with same lenses attached).

Surprisingly my wife wants me to get whichever is "better", even if it means spending more on the FF. But, I shoot a lot of low ISO, specifically with flash, and having been a former K5IIs owner I know that the AA missing helps with resolution when all other factors are clean. So at base ISO, will that missing AA help even things out, or will the D610 offer more detail simply from a larger sensor with higher SNR?

If there's anything else that should be mentioned please do. Im aware the SNR of the D610 at base ISO is a good chunk higher than the 7100 (DXO says 45.5 vs 41.7), but it's hard to guess how much a difference that will make up for when one has AA and the other doesn't. FYI I am a proud pixel peeper and tend to crop a lot, which is why im somewhat concerned with low ISO fine detail. Again, I know most agree that I should worry more about lenses, and that will be taken care of, my questions are only concerning comparing the cameras with the same lenses. Thanks in advance!!
Click to expand...
 
RicAllan said:
Starting fresh, the DoF argument is BS. That's soley affected by working distance to subject and shooting aperture (PERIOD). In other words lens focal length selection which alters working distance to subject.
Click to expand...
DOF depends on reproduction ratio (and aperture), in other words how large a scene is projected on the sensor.

If you frame something with 50mm in a certain way, then mount a 75mm lens on the same camera and take a few steps backward so the framing is the same as before the DOF in the two shots is equal because they are projected the same size on the sensor.

On the other hand if you remain in the same position, use a DX with 50mm and an FX with 75mm the framing is the same but the FX will have a stop less DOF because the size of the projections on the sensors is different.
 
You're in a tough quandry.

I shoot with a D800E as my primary camera and my backup/second body is a D610, but prior to the D610 I had the D7100. I prefer the viewfinder of the D610, the files from the D610 (a bit cleaner in the shadows even at base ISO) but I ABSOLUTELY prefer the AF system from the D7100, without any questions. For landscape - not a problem, but I shoot a lot in the studio, and even under decent modelling lamps from professional strobes (Elinchroms, Dynalites, profoto), the D610 just isn't as *consistent* in terms of AF as the D7100 or D800E - it seems to be the one "gotcha" I've experienced with *every* 39pt AF system from Nikon I've used - from the D7000 to the D610 to the DF, and this means at some point the D610 will have to go and I'll probably replace it with an D810 (or I'll look at what the rumored D750 has). Just not a fan of the 39pt AF in Nikons.

Image quality wise? The D7100 files have a lot of "bite", but compared to the FX bodies, even at low ISO there is a slight (slight) touch of grittiness in the shadows and in continuous toned subjects - not a deal breaker, but you can tell if you shoot the 7100 against, say, an 800E or 610.

It almost sounds like you should try to find a used D800E somewhere and check the AF system on it (since the early ones had issues) and try it.

BTW, I would strongly caution you from saying you will never spend 2K on a lens. If you truly want to see what the modern high rez bodies are capable of AND you crop AND you're a pixel peeper, you'll end up spending that much on a lens at some point for sure... it's ALL about the lenses, and I'd strongly, strongly urge you to consider that thought in your longer term planning...

-m
 
If, big IF, you think that at some point in the future that you might want a pro level build body I would strongly consider buying the D610 over the D7100. It has become pretty clear to me that Nikon wont be supporting a pro build DX body like the D2x or D300, their marketing plan is to move the pro/advanced amateur over to FX.

Way back when Nikon did not have an FX sensor to sell and Canon did, Nikon extoled the virtue of DX over FX and I believed their arguments and bought heavily into a D2x/D2h system only to find that once they developed FX technology that they would no longer support a pro level DX camera.

So, if you think you might want a pro level body down the road, go with the D610 now and buy the best FX glass that you can. I wish I had known what I know now back then; I would have switched to Canon.

I own a D7100 and also the D2x, D2h and D300 bodies and in my opinion, the D7100 does not come close to the build quality of the pro level bodies. Keep in mind also that the D610 and D7100 share basically the same body and quality.
 
Well after much deliberating I think I have stuck with the idea of FF. Not spending over my budget was the tough part, but I think im going with a D600 rather than the 610. It will be around $200 less to get one new which just allows it to fall inside that budget. 4 year warranty is a must, starting off with the 50 1.8, likely getting the Sigma 70 soon after, battery/grip as well. Just waiting on amazon to receive my mailed tradin and credit my account.

Thanks for all the advice, feel free to offer anything else. FYI im well aware of the oil spot issues and did a lot of reading about it lately. I don't tend to shoot at very small apertures and after 5k clicks I will likely have it cleaned by Nikon then it should be good after that.
 
Flashlight said:
RicAllan said:
Starting fresh, the DoF argument is BS. That's soley affected by working distance to subject and shooting aperture (PERIOD). In other words lens focal length selection which alters working distance to subject.
Click to expand...
DOF depends on reproduction ratio (and aperture), in other words how large a scene is projected on the sensor.

If you frame something with 50mm in a certain way, then mount a 75mm lens on the same camera and take a few steps backward so the framing is the same as before the DOF in the two shots is equal because they are projected the same size on the sensor.

On the other hand if you remain in the same position, use a DX with 50mm and an FX with 75mm the framing is the same but the FX will have a stop less DOF because the size of the projections on the sensors is different.
Click to expand...
 
Nikon was/is? offering a free shutter replacement on the D600, so if it shows issues you could take that up. I had mine done just for the sake of it- mainly to cover any resale issues I might have if I ever wanted to upgrade.
 
Fargonz said:
Nikon was/is? offering a free shutter replacement on the D600, so if it shows issues you could take that up. I had mine done just for the sake of it- mainly to cover any resale issues I might have if I ever wanted to upgrade.
Click to expand...
Yep, that was my thoughts, not too worried about the shutter after reading up on it. They are new now on Amazon for $1500, which is crazy cheap for such IQ. I will have to buy new or not at all, because (especially with that model) I won't buy without a drops/spills warranty, and amazon won't warranty used or refurbs.

I will have about a week or so before I can actually order so im probly going to be arguing one side vs the other in my head till then, but I want to figure it out so I don't regret it later on. I looked at Canon but they are much less what I want it seems. Pentax is nice but they have no FF options, in case I want that later on, and their flash systems are lacking. Lenses are also overpriced IMO for the IQ they offer

Sony was one I was tempted by too, the A77II looks like an amazing camera. It has IBIS and the basic lenses I need, but, I was really hoping to get back to an OVF. Coming from a GX7 I have argued the advantages of EVFs plenty, and I still stand by those, but OVF is also without the weaknesses of an EVF. I vacationed to the beach this summer, had a blast for 6 days (Navarre beach in FL). Problem was it was insanely hard to see anything in the LCD or EVF of my GX7 with that sun. It was then I decided I would either own both formats, or OVF only.

Nikon seems to be the all around best, and they have a good flash system. The only missing feature is IBIS for the primes I will be using, owell. So I can get a refurb D7100 with 3 year warranty for $940, or new D600 with same warranty for $1560. I like good IQ but that's a lot of money difference.
 
RicAllan said:
Flashlight said:
RicAllan said:
Starting fresh, the DoF argument is BS. That's soley affected by working distance to subject and shooting aperture (PERIOD). In other words lens focal length selection which alters working distance to subject.
Click to expand...
DOF depends on reproduction ratio (and aperture), in other words how large a scene is projected on the sensor.

If you frame something with 50mm in a certain way, then mount a 75mm lens on the same camera and take a few steps backward so the framing is the same as before the DOF in the two shots is equal because they are projected the same size on the sensor.

On the other hand if you remain in the same position, use a DX with 50mm and an FX with 75mm the framing is the same but the FX will have a stop less DOF because the size of the projections on the sensors is different.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Flashlight said:
RicAllan said:
Flashlight said:
RicAllan said:
Starting fresh, the DoF argument is BS. That's soley affected by working distance to subject and shooting aperture (PERIOD). In other words lens focal length selection which alters working distance to subject.
Click to expand...
DOF depends on reproduction ratio (and aperture), in other words how large a scene is projected on the sensor.

If you frame something with 50mm in a certain way, then mount a 75mm lens on the same camera and take a few steps backward so the framing is the same as before the DOF in the two shots is equal because they are projected the same size on the sensor.

On the other hand if you remain in the same position, use a DX with 50mm and an FX with 75mm the framing is the same but the FX will have a stop less DOF because the size of the projections on the sensors is different.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Having had a D600 and a D7100 and downsized to M4/3 (size and weight), I'd suggest going for the D610. The performance of a highly populated APS sensor in terms of IQ (ISO, noise,DR) is too close to M4/3 to justify the change - and the D610 is not much larger than the D7100. There may be a significant difference in the lenses you need, but that depends on what photography you do.

Best regards
Vince C
 
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