A7R observations of late starter

Tom Caldwell · Aug 22, 2014

Firstly - I like the camera - I bought it with my eyes wide open - this is more an observation of how Sony got the user interface so wrong and perhaps a supplication for them to do better another time.

First impressions are that the user interface was/is just as bad as I previously thought. Add that the front and back wheels require your finger to run along the edge of the wheels as the crevice and cut-away make it impossible to run your finger directly on the serrated flats. They seem to be set up in over-kill as for many things those wheels and the bottom wheel do the same thing. The Crazy "Quick Navi" screen has good intentions but seems neither particularly quick or particularly useful. It idea seems to be to make the evf the principal finder but you have to take your eye off the evf and check the lcd to use it then dit-dit with cursor keys to "quickly" use it.

The wheels are ratchetty and therefore clunky and the C2 button is also buried in a slot which is a pity as it controls magnification in playback (miles away from the playback button as well) and can get used a lot - then you switch to the clunky ratchetty wheel also in the slot to change magnification size .... The Function key is better and more like a quickmenu on demand but some of the functions are not useful for MF only lenses and there seem only "twee" functions left to replace them with - if it can be done. The advent of the Metabones adapter will allow some of these functions otherwise redundant to come alive. Which makes me note that it is mind boggling stupid for the functions that don't work to work enough to open up a message to say that they don't work, over and over again - surely they could simply be greyed out and not acessable? I guess if they message me enough I will finally get the message.

Setting up the camera it was very obvious that the menu button was in the wrong side of the camera being the only key needing dedicated left hand use.

I pinged the great big clunky EV wheel as an ornament, but I did not realise the full enormity - that C1 can be programmed instant access to EV and can be adjusted by your thumb on the fly (much as the NEX does quite brilliantly) and also can be set to forget or remember the last EV used at switch on. This gives the sole use of the EV wheel as a sort of over-ride where C1 access is set to "forget" and the top wheel to "remember" - otherwise the EV wheel is just a sop to "style" for those that are into "retro" cameras with wheels and buttons galore.

Surely if the camera can detect a non-oem MF lens then it could be made to hide the not-necessary AF functions and also hide the flash functions unless enabled specifically or automatically show them when a flash unit was detected?

The overall feel is that this is a sensor manufacturer playing at making cameras. The Sony engineers obviously are not dedicated photographers.

Of course it is pug-ugly, but I can live with that and whilst the custom keys are "all over the place" there seems very good customisation available (outside the pop up menus). I think that I can get all the control I need by using the mechanical buttons and wheels. The lower back wheel has a nice feel and is easily worked by the thumb - it contrasts greatly with other two clunky badly placed wheels and the terminally useless EV wheel.

I have set enough custom settings to the keys and I doubt if I will need to even use the function key much. I will give quick navi a miss.

I have always respected what the A7 series can do but thought the human interface terrible. When they were released in Australia the local dealer I have used said that he was not going to stock them when I went in with my credit card burning a hole in my pocket. Now I know why - they are full of technology but definately the exterior that presents itself to the photographer is really just a lash up - get used to it? Well maybe - I just hope that they don't bring out a delightful to use version soon as I am going to be terribly disappointed. My thoughts were that if the camera ever got cheap enough then I might sample it. Now that I have one I am thinking that I should have waited until it got a bit cheaper still

Tom Caldwell

blue_skies · Aug 22, 2014

17,946 posts to date, and this is the best that you can come up with?

So, what type of equipment does tickle your fancy? Stone-age equipment?

Not that there is nothing wrong with the product, there are plenty of posts about that. But I think that there is something wrong with (the tone in) your post.

You were saying... ?

Tom Caldwell said:
Firstly - I like the camera - I bought it with my eyes wide open - this is more an observation of how Sony got the user interface so wrong and perhaps a supplication for them to do better another time.

First impressions are that the user interface was/is just as bad as I previously thought. Add that the front and back wheels require your finger to run along the edge of the wheels as the crevice and cut-away make it impossible to run your finger directly on the serrated flats. They seem to be set up in over-kill as for many things those wheels and the bottom wheel do the same thing. The Crazy "Quick Navi" screen has good intentions but seems neither particularly quick or particularly useful. It idea seems to be to make the evf the principal finder but you have to take your eye off the evf and check the lcd to use it then dit-dit with cursor keys to "quickly" use it.

The wheels are ratchetty and therefore clunky and the C2 button is also buried in a slot which is a pity as it controls magnification in playback (miles away from the playback button as well) and can get used a lot - then you switch to the clunky ratchetty wheel also in the slot to change magnification size .... The Function key is better and more like a quickmenu on demand but some of the functions are not useful for MF only lenses and there seem only "twee" functions left to replace them with - if it can be done. The advent of the Metabones adapter will allow some of these functions otherwise redundant to come alive. Which makes me note that it is mind boggling stupid for the functions that don't work to work enough to open up a message to say that they don't work, over and over again - surely they could simply be greyed out and not acessable? I guess if they message me enough I will finally get the message.

Setting up the camera it was very obvious that the menu button was in the wrong side of the camera being the only key needing dedicated left hand use.

I pinged the great big clunky EV wheel as an ornament, but I did not realise the full enormity - that C1 can be programmed instant access to EV and can be adjusted by your thumb on the fly (much as the NEX does quite brilliantly) and also can be set to forget or remember the last EV used at switch on. This gives the sole use of the EV wheel as a sort of over-ride where C1 access is set to "forget" and the top wheel to "remember" - otherwise the EV wheel is just a sop to "style" for those that are into "retro" cameras with wheels and buttons galore.

Surely if the camera can detect a non-oem MF lens then it could be made to hide the not-necessary AF functions and also hide the flash functions unless enabled specifically or automatically show them when a flash unit was detected?

The overall feel is that this is a sensor manufacturer playing at making cameras. The Sony engineers obviously are not dedicated photographers.

Of course it is pug-ugly, but I can live with that and whilst the custom keys are "all over the place" there seems very good customisation available (outside the pop up menus). I think that I can get all the control I need by using the mechanical buttons and wheels. The lower back wheel has a nice feel and is easily worked by the thumb - it contrasts greatly with other two clunky badly placed wheels and the terminally useless EV wheel.

I have set enough custom settings to the keys and I doubt if I will need to even use the function key much. I will give quick navi a miss.

I have always respected what the A7 series can do but thought the human interface terrible. When they were released in Australia the local dealer I have used said that he was not going to stock them when I went in with my credit card burning a hole in my pocket. Now I know why - they are full of technology but definately the exterior that presents itself to the photographer is really just a lash up - get used to it? Well maybe - I just hope that they don't bring out a delightful to use version soon as I am going to be terribly disappointed. My thoughts were that if the camera ever got cheap enough then I might sample it. Now that I have one I am thinking that I should have waited until it got a bit cheaper still

Tom Caldwell

jalywol · Aug 22, 2014

The A7 feels better in hand to me than the EM1. After 6 months with the EM1, I was still having trouble figuring out where I had programmed everything, and after one month, everything on the A7 falls right into place.

Menus are no worse than the Panasonic's, and less complex than Oly's. No problem there either.

I love having a totally separate dedicated ISO dial.

Yes, the menu button should have been on the right side, I agree with that. But, on the EM1, the power on button should have been on the right side, too....

My only ergonomic quibble with the camera is that there is no way to magnify playback with a dial, but only with button presses. I have no idea why Sony didn't include this feature, which it has on other NEX cameras...

Focus peaking works better than on both the Oly and the Panasonics (haven't tried the version on the GH4, but on everything else of theirs that has it I have).

I don't seem to have the problems with the dial locations that you are...perhaps you have larger hands than I do, which might make a difference.

I think this just illustrates what a tough job it must be for camera companies to find the biggest sweet spot in camera design that appeals to the widest number of users.....

-J

philip pj · Aug 22, 2014

I am delighted so few users like this magnificent camera that produces spectacular imagery. And I wonder for the thousandth time that people are so deeply troubled by what seemed to me from the first shot to be very workable ergonomics; it seems to be a modern illness, as inexplicable as it is illuminating of the nature of the modern camera user. Maybe I am just lucky.

Docno · Aug 22, 2014

A lot of what you're referring to, Tom, is probably largely subjective and depends on one's prior experience in addition to personal preference.

For example, I quite like the solidly functional look of the camera itself. I've never been keen on the 'amorphous' curves of Canon cameras, for instance, though I know that many others find them to be icons of beauty. I just like the look, feel and weight of the A7R in my hands, and I haven't always felt that way about other Sonys.

I agree that the menu button is frustratingly placed. But maybe it's just a matter of getting used to a placement that differs from other cameras I've owned. In theory, we shouldn't be using the menu button anyway. [I have also always found Sony's menu system a little mystifying ... sometimes I don't understand why one option, such as formatting a card, is placed in one category rather than another... doesn't help that Sony always seems to make minor changes in these things from one camera to another].

I quite like the QuickNavi screen and keep it on the LCD at all times. It gives me all the exposure information I need plus faster access to all the things I would need to change (compared to using the menu system). If you are looking through the viewfinder, pressing the Fn button will still bring up a customisable subset of functions you can change, though not so quickly (for me). So again, I think we're talking about subjective preferences here.

My only 'complaint' at first was the AF system, but that has disappeared for me. At the start, I was getting too many missed focus shots. But I have become more used to the camera--how things work under different conditions--and my hit rate is quite good now. [Interestingly, I let a Canon-shooter friend of mine use the camera a couple of weeks back, and most of her shots were misfocused--and she makes money from photography! So there definitely seems to be a learning curve with this camera. That's fine with me, because I've never owned a camera that gives me such impressive images...

PVCdroid · Aug 22, 2014

philip pj said:
I am delighted so few users like this magnificent camera that produces spectacular imagery. And I wonder for the thousandth time that people are so deeply troubled by what seemed to me from the first shot to be very workable ergonomics; it seems to be a modern illness, as inexplicable as it is illuminating of the nature of the modern camera user. Maybe I am just lucky.

Magnification on playback after the shot is a bit strange. It is so easy in the Nex cameras but they can do it immediately. The A7r has a one to two second delay before you can hit the magnification button or you get an "unable to magnify"error. As I recall, this isn't a problem on the A7. I forgive the camera due to larger file sizes but it should be smart enough to know you're waiting to magnify the image and do it for you after the delay.

Abrak · Aug 22, 2014

I am another late starter with this camera and have had it less than a month. One of the advantages you get with being a late starter is that you are already aware of most of the shortcomings of the camera.

So most of the surprises I have found are more on the positive side. The wifi/apps is by far the best and fastest/robust I have ever used. I wasnt a fan of the dedicated EV dial but was pleased to find that I could control EV via the front dial. The overall menu system is pretty good and customizable (my only complaint is the few things I need to enter the menu system for - switching on/off display settings, formatting the card - are all over the place). The LCD is the best I have used - far better than on my EM1. I have always liked the look and feel of the camera (grip could be a little bigger) but then again it is similar to the EM1.

Overall, if you consider that it is the first iteration of a new product - Sony has done an incredibly good job here and is offering the product at a very competitive price.

M Dennis Fern · Aug 22, 2014

Welcome to the Sony "Nex" forum, Tom. Having shared your commentary regarding the Ricoh GXR for many months, I have actually missed reading your chatty, but interesting, thoughts (although I confess I don't always get your meaning). Can you elaborate on your commentary regarding the use of the C-1 button --I am afraid it's unclear to me.

I bought a A7R, initially to use my rangefinder (mostly Leica) lenses when it became apparent that the GXR was (sadly) a dead end. I'm actually planning on taking one of my GXR bodies with me on a photo trip to use with the two Leica lenses I plan to also use on my A7R (the 50mm Summicron and 135mm Elmar). With the GXR's crop factor, that will give me an effective 75mm and 200mm (more or less) combination, while the lens will work (naturally) as 50mm and 135mm on the Sony. Of course the quality of the GXR's 12mp sensor won't match the much newer Sony technology in the A7R, but it will give me flexibility and the security of a second body with very little additional weight.

I agree with you that the UI of the Sony is flawed, but the camera is magnificent and capable of amazing photography in such a compact camera. I just wish it would play better with my wider Leica lenses, since they are otherwise "made for" the Sony -- a terrific, light, package.

Cheers.

Dave Sanders · Aug 22, 2014

Tom Caldwell said:
Firstly - I like the camera - I bought it with my eyes wide open - this is more an observation of how Sony got the user interface so wrong and perhaps a supplication for them to do better another time.

Ah yes, the subjective nature of all things. I think the same thing every time I pick up a Canon...how did they get it so wrong? Obviously, they didn't, Canons just don't work the way my brain does. Nikon? Like home. Sony? Surprisingly good, for me at least.

Tom Caldwell said:
First impressions are that the user interface was/is just as bad as I previously thought. Add that the front and back wheels require your finger to run along the edge of the wheels as the crevice and cut-away make it impossible to run your finger directly on the serrated flats.

On the rear dial, my thumb falls directly on the serrated flat part. On the front dial, you have a point, if that's your thing. But for me, the Sony design allows me to just slide my finger off the shutter and, with it between the shutter release and the wheel, allows me to rotate the dial with the outside edge of my finger rather than arching my finger to use the tip. This is great as I use a soft release and squeeze the shutter like a trigger with the underside of my finger so the move is a smooth slide.

Tom Caldwell said:
They seem to be set up in over-kill as for many things those wheels and the bottom wheel do the same thing.

Front, exposure comp, back aperture/shutter, control dial ISO. Works a charm for me.

Tom Caldwell said:
The Crazy "Quick Navi" screen has good intentions but seems neither particularly quick or particularly useful.

Probably not a feature you need then...lucky, because you don't have to use it. You can even turn it off so that it doesn't appear when you hit 'DISP'. It is more or less exactly the same as the equivalent feature on Fuji or Olympus or Nikon or Canon or...

Tom Caldwell said:
It idea seems to be to make the evf the principal finder but you have to take your eye off the evf and check the lcd to use it then dit-dit with cursor keys to "quickly" use it.

The idea is to have myriad settings/functions quickly visible so that you can visually confirm them or change them. Again, every major camera manufacturer does this, including the checking of the screen and the 'dit-dit' to use it. Maybe they were trying to make DSLR users feel at home.

That said, it could be faster *cough cough* touchscreen *cough cough*.

Tom Caldwell said:
The wheels are ratchetty and therefore clunky and the C2 button is also buried in a slot

I've never actually even thought about this and just had to look at my A7 to confirm. It works every time I press it.

Tom Caldwell said:
which is a pity as it controls magnification in playback (miles away from the playback button as well)

Those must be Australian miles ;-) because to me it's an unconscious thumb motion...and it's beside the thumb wheel which is used for further magnification making initial mag and further mag quite a seamless process.

Tom Caldwell said:
and can get used a lot - then you switch to the clunky ratchetty wheel also in the slot to change magnification size ....

Yup, nice easy process.

Tom Caldwell said:
The Function key is better and more like a quickmenu on demand but some of the functions are not useful for MF only lenses

No way, Sony didn't design it to work perfectly with lenses they don't manufacture? Besides, what functions are you missing? One of the reasons I love the A7 is that it works so nicely with legacy glass on dumb adapters. It automatically turns on the peaking and the only other function I really use is 'magnification, which is on C1 and the implementation is great: one press, good enough, two presses, very close for fine tuning. The only other thing I change is peaking colour and level, both easily accessible on the Fn menu.

Tom Caldwell said:
and there seem only "twee" functions left to replace them with - if it can be done.

I find the Fn menu very useful...mine is, in order: Metering, Lock Focus (awesome feature), Quality, Peak Level, Peak Colour, Face Detect (very useful with eye detect), Grid, Creative Style, Zebra, Flash Mode, Steady Shot, Audio Rec Level. All functions I find access to useful.

Tom Caldwell said:
The advent of the Metabones adapter will allow some of these functions otherwise redundant to come alive. Which makes me note that it is mind boggling stupid for the functions that don't work to work enough to open up a message to say that they don't work, over and over again - surely they could simply be greyed out and not acessable?

Again, I'm sure Sony designed the camera with their own lenses in mind. It's pointless to get angry because the camera isn't designed to work with

Tom Caldwell said:
I guess if they message me enough I will finally get the message.

Setting up the camera it was very obvious that the menu button was in the wrong side of the camera being the only key needing dedicated left hand use.

Nope, right side. Quite literally ;-) . Same as Nikon and Canon's top cams. The idea has always been to hit menu with your left and, adjust with the right. Coming from a Nikon D2X/D3/D700, I never thought about this...all felt very natural. Again, perhaps this was aimed at the customer they were hoping to convert.

Tom Caldwell said:
I pinged the great big clunky EV wheel as an ornament, but I did not realise the full enormity - that C1 can be programmed instant access to EV and can be adjusted by your thumb on the fly (much as the NEX does quite brilliantly) and also can be set to forget or remember the last EV used at switch on. This gives the sole use of the EV wheel as a sort of over-ride where C1 access is set to "forget" and the top wheel to "remember" - otherwise the EV wheel is just a sop to "style" for those that are into "retro" cameras with wheels and buttons galore.

Or it's for those of us who have our C1 set to more pertinent functions. I've always liked having a dedicated EV wheel because it is the setting I still manage to forget most commonly. Having a dedicated wheel makes visual confirmation easy and it is instinctual for me as the RX1 and X100s have one too. Having the front wheel set to EV gives me options too. Depending on what my thumb is doing, I can use my front finger as well. When one is in use, it deactivates the other. Smart, I think.

Tom Caldwell said:
Surely if the camera can detect a non-oem MF lens then it could be made to hide the not-necessary AF functions and also hide the flash functions unless enabled specifically or automatically show them when a flash unit was detected?

The overall feel is that this is a sensor manufacturer playing at making cameras. The Sony engineers obviously are not dedicated photographers.

They could very well be more dedicated photographers than you. Just like many folks on this list might be too...and they like how the camera is laid out and set up. To each their own. I'm not going to say that Canon is staffed with ergonomic malcontents and photographic neophytes because their cameras are so unintuitive for me to use.

Tom Caldwell said:
Of course it is pug-ugly,

That's a slippery slope...

Tom Caldwell said:
but I can live with that and whilst the custom keys are "all over the place" there seems very good customisation available (outside the pop up menus).

Yes.

Tom Caldwell said:
I think that I can get all the control I need by using the mechanical buttons and wheels.

For sure.

Tom Caldwell said:
The lower back wheel has a nice feel and is easily worked by the thumb - it contrasts greatly with other two clunky badly placed wheels and the terminally useless EV wheel.

You mean "it contrasts greatly with the other two wheels and the EV wheel which just don't seem to work for me or how I want to use a camera".

Tom Caldwell said:
I have set enough custom settings to the keys and I doubt if I will need to even use the function key much. I will give quick navi a miss.

I think you misunderstand its function. It shows your current setting and provides your Fn menu down the right side. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tom Caldwell said:
I have always respected what the A7 series can do but thought the human interface terrible. When they were released in Australia the local dealer I have used said that he was not going to stock them when I went in with my credit card burning a hole in my pocket. Now I know why - they are full of technology but definately the exterior that presents itself to the photographer is really just a lash up

In your opinion.

Tom Caldwell said:
- get used to it?

Yes. Or not. Life is short. Buy what pleases you.

Tom Caldwell said:
Well maybe - I just hope that they don't bring out a delightful to use version soon as I am going to be terribly disappointed.

I hope not too because if you think it's delightful, it will be utterly terrible for me :-D

Tom Caldwell said:
My thoughts were that if the camera ever got cheap enough then I might sample it. Now that I have one I am thinking that I should have waited until it got a bit cheaper still

I always think of Mike Johnston, and I'm paraphrasing, when he said give a pro photographer a camera, any camera, for a year and they'll find a bunch of things they like about it and some things that bother them. They'll find workarounds for the things that bother them and get on with the business of making images. At the end of the year when asked to give it back they'll feel some sadness for craftsmen always develop an affection for tools that serve them faithfully in their pursuit of their craft, imperfections and all.

--
Dave Sanders

backpackerstl · Aug 22, 2014

Tone, yes we all should be careful of our Tone.

Dave Sanders · Aug 22, 2014

Dave Sanders said:
Dave Sanders said:

I have set enough custom settings to the keys and I doubt if I will need to even use the function key much. I will give quick navi a miss.

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand its function. It shows your current setting and provides your Fn menu down the right side. Nothing more, nothing less.

My bad...shows you how little I use it ;-) It doesn't provide your Fn menu down the right, just a menu of Sony's choosing. I've only used it for visual confirmation of settings and even that, sparingly.

Tom Caldwell · Aug 23, 2014

Abrak said:
I am another late starter with this camera and have had it less than a month. One of the advantages you get with being a late starter is that you are already aware of most of the shortcomings of the camera.

So most of the surprises I have found are more on the positive side. The wifi/apps is by far the best and fastest/robust I have ever used. I wasnt a fan of the dedicated EV dial but was pleased to find that I could control EV via the front dial. The overall menu system is pretty good and customizable (my only complaint is the few things I need to enter the menu system for - switching on/off display settings, formatting the card - are all over the place). The LCD is the best I have used - far better than on my EM1. I have always liked the look and feel of the camera (grip could be a little bigger) but then again it is similar to the EM1.

Overall, if you consider that it is the first iteration of a new product - Sony has done an incredibly good job here and is offering the product at a very competitive price.

Tom Caldwell · Aug 23, 2014

backpackerstl said:
Tone, yes we all should be careful of our Tone.

Yes and I guess if awkwardness is never pointed out then it will never be changed for the better.

Tom Caldwell · Aug 23, 2014

jalywol said:
The A7 feels better in hand to me than the EM1. After 6 months with the EM1, I was still having trouble figuring out where I had programmed everything, and after one month, everything on the A7 falls right into place.

Mmm never tried the EM1 - it must be really bad

jalywol said:
Menus are no worse than the Panasonic's, and less complex than Oly's. No problem there either.

I don't think I said there was any trouble with the menus

jalywol said:
I love having a totally separate dedicated ISO dial.

I agree that some people might like a dedicated EV dial but with awkward front and back wheel I would have sacrificed a wheel to get the shutter button down where it belongs on the front wheel cut-away.

jalywol said:
Yes, the menu button should have been on the right side, I agree with that. But, on the EM1, the power on button should have been on the right side, too....

Just a little error there are worse ergonomics than that little issue.

jalywol said:
My only ergonomic quibble with the camera is that there is no way to magnify playback with a dial, but only with button presses. I have no idea why Sony didn't include this feature, which it has on other NEX cameras...

You can click the centre button to magnify when shooting, logic would say that you should be able to click it to magnify on playback. Then it would place the playback magnify close to the playback button itself. So now you click playback on the lower left, move your thumb (?) right up to C2 in the slot, press that button then use the back wheel to adjust magnification. All this could be done with the centre button and lower dial.

jalywol said:
Focus peaking works better than on both the Oly and the Panasonics (haven't tried the version on the GH4, but on everything else of theirs that has it I have).

Ricoh Mode2 is the focus peaking that sets the standard. The Sony one tends to disappear on magnification and on telephoto lenses - luckily the evf and lcd are so good that it is hardly needed. Being hardly needed does not make the function work properly.

jalywol said:
I don't seem to have the problems with the dial locations that you are...perhaps you have larger hands than I do, which might make a difference.

No I have very small hands for a man. The positioning of the dials is not a problem. With the front one I can almost but not quite get my first finger to run flat on it. The back dial is harder and my thumb seems to run along the edge of the dial. Sony is not alone in this problem. Being quite ratchetty in action doesn't help.

jalywol said:
I think this just illustrates what a tough job it must be for camera companies to find the biggest sweet spot in camera design that appeals to the widest number of users.....

-J

Good ergonomics was worked out over a long time in mechanical cameras and it was a wonderful job done in the end. Plenty of well designed instances to learn from. Theses days with computer aided design and the ability to place components less dictated by mechanical constraints there are less excuses but the design did not have to be perfect in the obviously huge cost of bringing this camera to market one would have thought that some design layouts could have been work-shopped with serious camera users.

I am not criticising the cameras capability - I am just pointing out what appears to be a truckload of bad ergonomics.

Of course we get used to anything and after a while it seems the natural way of doing things.

I know you are familiar with the GM1. There is a camera that makes do with just one wheel and if it were better set up and had less mind of its own it would work fine. The A7 series has no less than four wheels to play with when arguably this end up in duplication of functions - something any of three wheels will do the job just depending on which one you grab - this can be a convenience or a confusion - but we just get used to it and then wonder what the problem ever was.

Tom Caldwell · Aug 23, 2014

Docno said:
A lot of what you're referring to, Tom, is probably largely subjective and depends on one's prior experience in addition to personal preference.

Agreed - I have been spoiled by Ricoh (among others)

Docno said:
For example, I quite like the solidly functional look of the camera itself. I've never been keen on the 'amorphous' curves of Canon cameras, for instance, though I know that many others find them to be icons of beauty. I just like the look, feel and weight of the A7R in my hands, and I haven't always felt that way about other Sonys.

The shape does not bother me.

Docno said:
I agree that the menu button is frustratingly placed. But maybe it's just a matter of getting used to a placement that differs from other cameras I've owned. In theory, we shouldn't be using the menu button anyway. [I have also always found Sony's menu system a little mystifying ... sometimes I don't understand why one option, such as formatting a card, is placed in one category rather than another... doesn't help that Sony always seems to make minor changes in these things from one camera to another].

I quite like the QuickNavi screen and keep it on the LCD at all times. It gives me all the exposure information I need plus faster access to all the things I would need to change (compared to using the menu system). If you are looking through the viewfinder, pressing the Fn button will still bring up a customisable subset of functions you can change, though not so quickly (for me). So again, I think we're talking about subjective preferences here.

My only 'complaint' at first was the AF system, but that has disappeared for me. At the start, I was getting too many missed focus shots. But I have become more used to the camera--how things work under different conditions--and my hit rate is quite good now. [Interestingly, I let a Canon-shooter friend of mine use the camera a couple of weeks back, and most of her shots were misfocused--and she makes money from photography! So there definitely seems to be a learning curve with this camera. That's fine with me, because I've never owned a camera that gives me such impressive images...

Thanks, a very sane and sage reply. I have not really used the camera yet - I expect to be very impressed when I do.

Things that are ergonomically wrong tend to leap out as an initial reaction. Best to write them down when they smack you in the face, once you have "become used to" the camera then they are not noticed so much but they are still there.

I always reckoned the car you could test drive around the block and feel that you had been driving it for years was the best car. The ones wher you were still figuring things out a week later were not so good.

tex · Aug 23, 2014

...who likes this camera. The negatives from other users somewhat bewilder me. it seems a number of the problems people have, especially with the wheels and buttons, stem from the fact that the camera is so small....ummmm, which was the point, I thought? If you don't like this compromise, then there are lots of other, larger options. IMO, the whole ergonomics thing to me is a bit of bunkum after a baseline point....we are all too different for one thing to work for all of us.

Every car I've owned, every power saw I've used, camera, you name it, has required an adjustment on my part. Which I think is appropriate, given that tools are made for everyone, not just one, unless they are bespoke. When I am rich as Croesus, then I'll have bespoke things made for me, including my camera.

Chris Mak · Aug 23, 2014

Another late adopter here.
I thouroughly like the camera, more than I thought I would, being used to Dslr cameras.

The EVF, 100% focus magnification with manual focus, exposure metering at actual aperture with the EVF compensating for light loss, the portable body of the camera compared to Dslr, which still balances well with hefty Zeiss MF lenses, and which has a nice build quality. The shooting experience has pleasantly surprised me.

It's easy to overlook how well Sony did with this camera, and calling it ugly doesn't add to a balance in the tone of this post. Personally, I think the Sony A7r is a beauty when comparing to the Canon and Nikon FF Dslr cameras, and even comparing it to the Olympus EM-1, which was popular hit.

Chris

Godfrey · Aug 23, 2014

Hi Tom,

When I first got the A7, I found it a bit of a mess too. Compared to the Ricoh GXR and Olympus E-M1, it felt clunky and awkward to use. But as I've told other folks, work with it for a month or two before you speak...

With now about seven months of use behind me, I've learned the camera well and dialed in all the custom configs that work for me. I don't know much about the automation features or AF—I use it exclusively with manual focus lenses (mostly Leica R), in either Manual or Aperture priority mode. I've hardly ever used the Fn panel either. Most of the controls are second nature to me know, my fingers find their way to the oddly placed buttons without thought. I don't think about it much at all, really. I just use it.

It remains a bit clunky, but the excellent sensor and viewfinder work well with the lenses I use on it and it produces superb photographs. It will never be the slick and sophisticated piece that the Olympus E-M1 is, IMO, but it will image what a Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 lens does better than anything else I've tried other than a Leica R8. That's fine by me. ;-)

Good luck with it.

dave46978 · Aug 23, 2014

Tom Caldwell said:
Firstly - I like the camera - I bought it with my eyes wide open - this is more an observation of how Sony got the user interface so wrong and perhaps a supplication for them to do better another time.

First impressions are that the user interface was/is just as bad as I previously thought. Add that the front and back wheels require your finger to run along the edge of the wheels as the crevice and cut-away make it impossible to run your finger directly on the serrated flats. They seem to be set up in over-kill as for many things those wheels and the bottom wheel do the same thing. The Crazy "Quick Navi" screen has good intentions but seems neither particularly quick or particularly useful. It idea seems to be to make the evf the principal finder but you have to take your eye off the evf and check the lcd to use it then dit-dit with cursor keys to "quickly" use it.

The wheels are ratchetty and therefore clunky and the C2 button is also buried in a slot which is a pity as it controls magnification in playback (miles away from the playback button as well) and can get used a lot - then you switch to the clunky ratchetty wheel also in the slot to change magnification size .... The Function key is better and more like a quickmenu on demand but some of the functions are not useful for MF only lenses and there seem only "twee" functions left to replace them with - if it can be done. The advent of the Metabones adapter will allow some of these functions otherwise redundant to come alive. Which makes me note that it is mind boggling stupid for the functions that don't work to work enough to open up a message to say that they don't work, over and over again - surely they could simply be greyed out and not acessable? I guess if they message me enough I will finally get the message.

Setting up the camera it was very obvious that the menu button was in the wrong side of the camera being the only key needing dedicated left hand use.

I pinged the great big clunky EV wheel as an ornament, but I did not realise the full enormity - that C1 can be programmed instant access to EV and can be adjusted by your thumb on the fly (much as the NEX does quite brilliantly) and also can be set to forget or remember the last EV used at switch on. This gives the sole use of the EV wheel as a sort of over-ride where C1 access is set to "forget" and the top wheel to "remember" - otherwise the EV wheel is just a sop to "style" for those that are into "retro" cameras with wheels and buttons galore.

Surely if the camera can detect a non-oem MF lens then it could be made to hide the not-necessary AF functions and also hide the flash functions unless enabled specifically or automatically show them when a flash unit was detected?

The overall feel is that this is a sensor manufacturer playing at making cameras. The Sony engineers obviously are not dedicated photographers.

Of course it is pug-ugly, but I can live with that and whilst the custom keys are "all over the place" there seems very good customisation available (outside the pop up menus). I think that I can get all the control I need by using the mechanical buttons and wheels. The lower back wheel has a nice feel and is easily worked by the thumb - it contrasts greatly with other two clunky badly placed wheels and the terminally useless EV wheel.

I have set enough custom settings to the keys and I doubt if I will need to even use the function key much. I will give quick navi a miss.

I have always respected what the A7 series can do but thought the human interface terrible. When they were released in Australia the local dealer I have used said that he was not going to stock them when I went in with my credit card burning a hole in my pocket. Now I know why - they are full of technology but definately the exterior that presents itself to the photographer is really just a lash up - get used to it? Well maybe - I just hope that they don't bring out a delightful to use version soon as I am going to be terribly disappointed. My thoughts were that if the camera ever got cheap enough then I might sample it. Now that I have one I am thinking that I should have waited until it got a bit cheaper still

Tom Caldwell

When I first seen the A7/R I thought that the Grip size and shutter button position were very poorly designed. After having the A7 for a few months, I have gotten used to the different configuration. I just sold my A7 yesterday and ordered a new A7R. I don't think that the layout is bad, it is just a little different. I never got used to the Canon 5D layout. It is clumsy to me and hard for me to get used to, so I gave my 5D and accessories to my daughter yesterday. I find the A7 and Pentax K5 II menus and layout easy for me. So it is just a matter of what you are used to. I have found that some folks just like to wine about anything that isn't to their liking. If the advantages don't out weigh your ability to use a tool , get rid of it and find another camera to complain about. Maybe it is because you Ausies are using your cameras upside down.

PVCdroid · Aug 23, 2014

Chris Mak said:
Another late adopter here.
I thouroughly like the camera, more than I thought I would, being used to Dslr cameras.

The EVF, 100% focus magnification with manual focus, exposure metering at actual aperture with the EVF compensating for light loss, the portable body of the camera compared to Dslr, which still balances well with hefty Zeiss MF lenses, and which has a nice build quality. The shooting experience has pleasantly surprised me.

It's easy to overlook how well Sony did with this camera, and calling it ugly doesn't add to a balance in the tone of this post. Personally, I think the Sony A7r is a beauty when comparing to the Canon and Nikon FF Dslr cameras, and even comparing it to the Olympus EM-1, which was popular hit.

Chris

Agree. Never thought I would say that and I do like RF style better but this reminds me of my Nikon F2AS with the hard edges. It looks classic. Curvy large DSLR bodies are pretty ugly imho and I really hope Sony doesn't go further in that direction. The comparisons from current/former DSLR users on this thread have been interesting and shed some light on why Sony designed these cameras the way they did. These cameras are much more attractive and even better looking with the battery grip. I think the saying "can't teach an old dog new tricks" and comments from DSLR users saying it's ugly fits in this case.

A7R observations of late starter

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