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a7r firmware for shutter shock

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I'm hoping to see someone (Sony?) do away entirely with the shutter! Why can't the chip just be reset, and a signal telling all the little photo cells to count incoming photons and with the signal off, to stop counting all the little incoming photons? That would entirely get rid of needing a shutter. Of course, that would make it hard to plan for obsolescence, because nothing wears out any longer.

Another interesting idea might be... and keep in mind, I'm the first one bringing this up, so this, right here right now, becomes "prior art" by me "spilling" and idea here... What if the photo sensor chip doesn't just record a single value, but records, like a video, records its value multiple times. Instead of having a single value for a photo cell on the chip, you end up with a series of values. This could lead to the ultimate in dynamic range!
 
123Mike said:
I'm hoping to see someone (Sony?) do away entirely with the shutter!
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The A7s has a full electronic shutter. For now there are still enough reasons to keep the mechanical shutter for IQ, but the Electronic shutter will com in the end and then we have a almost complete electronic camera (only apperture will still be mechanical...
123Mike said:
Why can't the chip just be reset, and a signal telling all the little photo cells to count incoming photons and with the signal off, to stop counting all the little incoming photons? That would entirely get rid of needing a shutter.
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It is harder then you think, that is why there still is a shutter in most cameras.
123Mike said:
Of course, that would make it hard to plan for obsolescence, because nothing wears out any longer.
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Well all electronc gear get old and people want a new, better toy every now and then...
123Mike said:
Another interesting idea might be... and keep in mind, I'm the first one bringing this up, so this, right here right now, becomes "prior art" by me "spilling" and idea here... What if the photo sensor chip doesn't just record a single value, but records, like a video, records its value multiple times. Instead of having a single value for a photo cell on the chip, you end up with a series of values. This could lead to the ultimate in dynamic range!
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The problem (for now) is that the chip is not read as a total but line for line, to get the best you have to stop the photons from being counted and them read out, then start all over agin from scratch. So it is a good idea, and maybe those wizzards at Sony find a way to do what you want, but not with the sensors of today...
 
TommieH said:
JohnK said:
TommieH said:
it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.
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  • Adds bracket shooting exposure settings (three frames / 1.0EV, 2.0EV, 3.0EV)
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Sure, yet much of the things you mention like bracketing is half assed (google it).
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Nah, no need to google it, if you say it's half-assed then I believe it, you seem to really know what you're talking about.
 
SQLGuy said:
captura said:
dotborg said:
SQLGuy said:
dotborg said:
SQLGuy said:
SQLGuy said:
dotborg said:
SQLGuy said:
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
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It would be great if Sony could implement electronic first curtain on the a7R, even if it's only for shutter speeds up to say 1/250s.
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EFC is not a software thing, it is hardware (sensor related). So Sony can use an improved sensor for the successor of the A7r, but they can't create the EFC in the existing camera by FW. The only thing they can do is put a delay between shutter close and exposure so the vibration dies out.
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Olympus did it.
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Olympus did not employ the normally used EFCS in order to solve their shutter shock problem, already occuring in the high-end model E-M1. Instead, they became creative. For years, an owner always had a choice to choose from a choice of delays in their M43 cameras. (I always selected 1/8 sec. in the menu.) Now for the first time some unique methods ere used to eliminate shutter shock right out of the box. With zero time delay required. With a new Firmware Update....

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Firmware Version 1.3 (March 31, 2014)

"With an electronic first curtain, the exposure is started by a purely electronic process (as the name implies). Some manufacturers such as Canon and Sony have used this for several years, as it can be used to entirely eliminate any vibration from the physical shutter action. Olympus's implementation is however subtly different - the physical shutter still closes and opens as usual, but the exposure is slightly delayed to allow any vibrations to die down, and then started electronically. This is also the first time we've seen it added via a firmware update, and specifically to reduce image blurring."
  • Dynamic range has been expanded when using the external mic. The sound level adjustment has been changed to adjust to 21 levels in accordance with this.
  • A function to turn the Volume Limiter on and off was added. When it is on, it automatically limits the mic input volume if sound input volume exceeds the designated level.
  • A 0 second setting has been added to Anti-Shock mode.
  • The camera operation when the Frame Rate of live view is [High] have been improved.
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/41...e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock

Our sometimes-and very worthwhile contributor Ming Thein had this to say:

http://blog.mingthein.com/2014/04/01/new-olympus-e-m1-firmware/
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Anti-shock 0 setting is EFCS up to 1/320s. After that it's normal shutter. They also updated the E-P5 with the same feature.
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Do you have a link for that? And what about the E-M10 and the E-M5?
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Don't know about those, but they did the same 1/320th change for the E-P5.
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TommieH said:
JohnK said:
TommieH said:
it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.
Click to expand...
  • Adds bracket shooting exposure settings (three frames / 1.0EV, 2.0EV, 3.0EV)
Click to expand...
Sure, yet much of the things you mention like bracketing is half assed (google it).
Click to expand...
It doesn't need to be perfect to disprove your claim.

Adding focus peaking to NEX-3/5 in a firmware update was pretty damn important feature as well.
 
123Mike said:
I'm hoping to see someone (Sony?) do away entirely with the shutter! Why can't the chip just be reset, and a signal telling all the little photo cells to count incoming photons and with the signal off, to stop counting all the little incoming photons? That would entirely get rid of needing a shutter. Of course, that would make it hard to plan for obsolescence, because nothing wears out any longer.
Click to expand...
The A7s already offers a silent shutter, but there are limitations. For instance, you can get nasty bands on shots taken in fluorescent light.
123Mike said:
Another interesting idea might be... and keep in mind, I'm the first one bringing this up, so this, right here right now, becomes "prior art" by me "spilling" and idea here... What if the photo sensor chip doesn't just record a single value, but records, like a video, records its value multiple times. Instead of having a single value for a photo cell on the chip, you end up with a series of values. This could lead to the ultimate in dynamic range!
Click to expand...
Isn't this the same as the modes like HHT that integrate several exposures ?
 
JohnK said:
TommieH said:
JohnK said:
TommieH said:
it's quite known that Sony never adds new important camera features in firmware updates.
Click to expand...
  • Adds bracket shooting exposure settings (three frames / 1.0EV, 2.0EV, 3.0EV)
Click to expand...
Sure, yet much of the things you mention like bracketing is half assed (google it).
Click to expand...
Nah, no need to google it, if you say it's half-assed then I believe it, you seem to really know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
 
nemist said:
sybersitizen said:
nemist said:
It shutter shock fixable by firmware?
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If Sony can add EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) with a firmware update, then yes. Otherwise, no.
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Thank you for this concise answer, and no sarcasm or deriding comments. I am not trolling, I have owned lots of Sony cameras, and I like them. Comments like maybe Sony will rename the camera to an a7r-II with a firmware update are dumb, don't answer the question, and redirect the whole nature of the question--I am not the one made a his-res compact full frame body with shutter issues.

"However, as already mentioned in the introduction you shouldn't really pair this lens with the Sony A7R anyway. The A7R creates rather massive shutter vibrations that are a game spoilers when using tele-lenses - even with activated OSS"

It recommends staying over 1/500 with tele's, which is not a good option for me.

(photozone.de)

And yes, for the application I listed, shutter shock or shutter vibration or however you call it is an issue. It's not some over inflated anti-sony sentiment. I am trying to find a replacement for my a900/a99 and Mino 80-200G, and the focal lengths and and shutter speeds I would use are in the range of affect. I hike quite a bit and have had a back surgery, so something like the A7r + 70-200FE is very tempting, but not with shutter shock as is. Just because it's not a real concern for some shooters, doesn't mean its not a real concern for all shooters.

Thanks for the answer though.
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Give us all a break. You really hit on a revelation didn't you? I wonder how all the pros that are shooting landscapes with the A7R right now dealing with this travesty. You really need to get the word out. BS...
 
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nemist said:
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
Click to expand...
Like Erik Magnuson writes, read: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=3757

Then make your own mind up; I doubt the problem can be resolved in sw, bcos the EFCS feature requires clearing the sensor line by line prior to exposure and it's possible the SoC doesn't have the muscle or the CMOS does have the bandwidth to support the feature under normal shooting conditions... thus the implementation would exasperate the issues associated with EFCS (Sony list some of these in their manuals).

In any event, even with shutter shock you usually have improved res over anything else except the D810.
 
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raybies said:
nemist said:
It shutter shock fixable by firmware? I would buy the a7r as a landscape/nature/travel camera, but the shutter shock would really damage my kind of shooting. I am wondering is this will be resolved at some point, or if I'll have to wait for the next round of bodies.
Click to expand...
Like Erik Magnuson writes, read: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=3757

Then make your own mind up; I doubt the problem can be resolved in sw, bcos the EFCS feature requires clearing the sensor line by line prior to exposure and it's possible the SoC doesn't have the muscle or the CMOS does have the bandwidth to support the feature under normal shooting conditions... thus the implementation would exasperate the issues associated with EFCS (Sony list some of these in their manuals).

In any event, even with shutter shock you usually have improved res over anything else except the D810.
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As I said before, Nikon D810 has solved the SS issue , employing EFCS by using a newly developed 36 mp sensor from Sony. And Sony is sure to put this system and new sensor into their revised A7r.
 
Henry Richardson said:
Olympus released firmware updates for their E-M1, E-M10, and E-P5 to get rid of shutter shock from their mechanical shutters. No electronic shutters.
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But they are not able to for the E-M5. Just thought that should be added to whatever point you're trying to make.
 
Bob Tullis said:
Henry Richardson said:
Olympus released firmware updates for their E-M1, E-M10, and E-P5 to get rid of shutter shock from their mechanical shutters. No electronic shutters.
Click to expand...
But they are not able to for the E-M5. Just thought that should be added to whatever point you're trying to make.
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Whether Olympus can or cannot do it for the E-M5 is not known. From many things I have read it seems likely it could be done since it seems to have the same shutter, etc. as the E-M10. Here is just one thing:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54097379

The E-M5 is quite old and is expected to be replaced before too much longer so the most likely explanation is that Olympus just doesn't want to release an update for it, unlike the newer models I mentioned above. Of course, a lot of us hope Olympus will do it and no one knows what might happen tomorrow. They may surprise us with an update. :-)

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
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Erik Magnuson said:
raybies said:
captura said:
As I said before, Nikon D810 has solved the SS issue , employing EFCS by using a newly developed 36 mp sensor from Sony. And Sony is sure to put this system and new sensor into their revised A7r.
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That's pure speculation, where did you get this information?
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It's mostly speculation. But Nikon says that "At the core of the D810is a brand-new, 36.3-megapixel FX-format (7360 x 4912 resolution) CMOS sensor"
Member said:
How do you know it's not the SoC that allows EFCS EXPEED 4 vs 3?
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The logic chain goes:
  • The D800 and A7R use the same basic sensor (reportedly info from Sony reps)
  • Sony has implemented EFCS on every body since the original NEX5 & 3
  • But the A7R doesn't have it - why not?
  • Now with the D810, Nikon has implemented EFCS
From this, it seems likely that the sensor designed for the D800 did not support ECFS and the A7R inherited this restriction. Otherwise the omission in the A7R is inexplicable.
Member said:
What are the differences between then D810, D800 and a7R CMOS?
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You'd have to buy some quite expensive Chipworks reports to know this in detail. Based on what's "known" to date:
  • the D800, D800E, and A7R have the same basic pixel architecture, i.e. the silicon is likely identical but the toppings (RGB filters, IR filters, AA filters) are different. The supporting electronics are likely different.
  • The D810 contains revised silicon and toppings and electronics.
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