Need help narrowed down to 3 DSLR choices

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

tedolf said:

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

Hi, thanks

the 18-200mm is the IS model. for the 60D Kit
what makes the the 55-250 or 70-200mm better ???

what am I or should I look for ??

**Also, the Gym indoor and outdoor Sports my daughters are in

mostly Cheer and Dance competitions / some Golf and Soccer

some Video and some Photo's

**

everything else will be for daily use, vacations, etc...

peevee1 said:

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

hi, thanks.

went to local store too look at them today, along with the Olympus OMDM10 ( which they did not have there )

sales guy, said either the 60D with the 18-135 or 18-200

are fine and will take excellent sports in or outdoor pics..

$999 or $1099 (18-200mm ) kit

Would like to see the Olympus before making a final Decision

peevee1 said:

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

I didn't see the EOS 60D with the STM lens , only the regular 18-135mm lens??

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I don't think there ever were kits 60D+18-135 STM. 60D is superseded by 70D, and this one have STM lens in kit.

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E-M10 is not very good for sports, AF-C+tracking is slowish, you will need to learn to prefocus.

135 might be too short for most sports also. 200 - sure, enough on 60D except for extreme cases. But f/5.6 on 60D is too dark, autoISO maximum is 6400 and you will hit it in a typical gym at something like 1/200s (could be less in darker gyms) which is not enough to freeze motion. You can of course set ISO 12,800 manually, but don't expect good quality (low noise etc), and shutter speed is not going to be fast even with that. Also, with manual ISO even when you don't need high shutter speed (when your subject is stationary for a second), you'll still get this low quality of ISO 12800.

Also, there are quite a few 18-200 lenses, I am not sure which one your store offers, but I am sure not all of them are fast. Is it Canon EF-S 18-200 IS? The reviews for its AF are not the best, it is neither USM no STM.

Basically, you'll want 70-200/2.8 USM very soon.

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look at the Olympus E-m1 body. It is about the same price, has good tracking PDAF and will let you keep your current lenses.

TEdolph

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E-M10 or E-M1 ( doesn't the E-M10 also use the same lenses ) ??

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All micro four third cameras whether made by Panasonic, Olympus, Black Magic, JVC and Kodak use the same lens mount and same lenses without adapters of any sort. The E-M1 is Olympus' top of the line camera body and has on sensor PDAF as well as CDAF focusing elements. As a result, the E-m1 can track auto focus as well as most DLSRs. The E-m10 only has CDAF focusing sensors and it also focuses very fast, but can't track as well as the E-m1. The Em-10 camera body only is about $600.00. The Em-1 body only is about $999.00 USD.

TEdolph

You already have a mirrorless system so you don't like it for whatever reason.

Sony has mirrorless system with larger sensor. The lens offering is much inferior to the one from Olympus, though.

Take care with Canon as they have two versions of 18-135 mm IS. The first version is not highly regarded. The second one fixed the first generation issues and you can identify as it has a STM in the name.

Back to the three cameras you are looking:

Canon T5i (700D) is their equivalent to Nikon D5300. The high ISO is not its strong point as the sensor is somehow outdated. It is a decent entry level camera. Take care to have the 18-135 mm IS STM with it.

Nikon D5300 has a better sensor and lacks high speed syncro for flash. The latter is useful for fill flash in bright conditions.

Canon 60D is a step up from these two. You can find it at the same price because the other two were released recently. It has the same sensor as the other Canon (even if it was released three years earlier). It has a pentaprism viewfinder that is better than the pentamirror viewfinders from the other two bodies. For Nikon equivalent look at Nikon D7000.

Each will have a better lens selection than the mirrorless systems. Fuji has a good reputation for the lenses they released for their Fuji X system but they are extremely expensive. Sony has a very limited lens selection although their bodies have a good IQ. Olympus you already know. I have no idea about Samsung NX system.

If you want to pay a little less look also at Canon T3i or Nikon D5100.

Good luck with the choice.

KCook said:

While the STM is "better", it does not follow that the 60D era 18-135 must be "hopeless". There are plenty of sample images with the old lens that you can check for yourself -

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/r...album=canon-rebel-t3i-eos-600d-review-samples

Personally I would rather have the 60D with the old 18-135 than the T5i with the STM. But I have an easier time replacing lenses than bodies. Your habits may turn out different.

Kelly

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thanks. if i could get the EOS60D with the 18-135 IS ( older lens ) or 18-200mm at pretty much the same price. should i just go with that ???

the EOS60D is only slightly larger in physical size over the t5i priced the same as the EOS60D with the 18-135 or 18-200mm lens locally..

only reason I was considering OMDM10 olympus was to just get the body only at 600,

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

Hi, thanks

the 18-200mm is the IS model. for the 60D Kit
what makes the the 55-250 or 70-200mm better ???

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55-250 IS II if f/5 at 135mm. 18-200 IS is f/5.6 at 135mm (and probably earlier too). Not a big difference, just 1/3EV.

70-200/2.8 is f/2.8 at 135 and everywhere, full 2 stops more light on AF sensors and on the image sensor, which matters in low light. Not even funny. And 70-200/2.8 IS II USM is a fast focuser, and sharp everywhere. Price of course is very high, because Canon can charge this much, every pro absolutely has to have it I guess.

There are cheaper alternatives.

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr wrote:

if i could get the EOS60D with the 18-135 IS ( older lens ) or 18-200mm at pretty much the same price. should i just go with that ???

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At shorter focal lengths, for general purpose scenes, the 18-135 is technically better than the 18-200. At 135mm there is not much difference. The 200mm setting would be marginal in low light, Ok for outdoor sports. The 18-200 is quite a bit heavier than the 18-135, this can be a real factor at the end of a long day. As others have posted, I don't think the 18-200 would be a happy choice indoors at 200mm. For that indoor choice other Canon lenses (or Sigma or Tamron) would be better. If I were 60D shopping I would just take the 18-135 to start with. Work out what other lenses I might want to add later. You will have plenty to learn to start with the 18-135.

Kelly

KCook said:

KCook said:

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr wrote:
if i could get the EOS60D with the 18-135 IS ( older lens ) or 18-200mm at pretty much the same price. should i just go with that ???

Click to expand...

At shorter focal lengths, for general purpose scenes, the 18-135 is technically better than the 18-200. At 135mm there is not much difference. The 200mm setting would be marginal in low light, Ok for outdoor sports. The 18-200 is quite a bit heavier than the 18-135, this can be a real factor at the end of a long day. As others have posted, I don't think the 18-200 would be a happy choice indoors at 200mm. For that indoor choice other Canon lenses (or Sigma or Tamron) would be better. If I were 60D shopping I would just take the 18-135 to start with. Work out what other lenses I might want to add later. You will have plenty to learn to start with the 18-135.

Kelly

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***********************

Thanks - appreciate the help

I have narrowed down to;

EOS60D with the regular ( 18-135MM IS ) lens

or

OMD-EM10 ( with a 18-140mm ) lens ( I have other lens's that work with the micro 4/3 )

* I just found a store that carries that OMD, will check it out in person after the weekend *

both of the above are about $1K total, and should be a pretty big step from the camera I am typically using ( Olympus E-PL2 , and Canon P&S older SX10 IS )

they work pretty good outdoors, and ok in doors, but for the gym they are just soso

unless I just shoot video

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There may be a little confusion on M4/3 lenses here. The only 18-140 is a Nikon for the D5300, etc, APS-C DSLR. Oly has a 14-150 and Panny has a 14-140. While not bad, the Oly 14-150 is a little funky wide open at the tele end. Needs to be stopped down to f/8, so not tops indoors. The Panny 14-140 can be used with the Oly M10, but I would not expect to find the Panny lens in a bundle with the Oly body!

Any of these cameras will have noticeably less high ISO noise than the Oly PL2 (I also experience that noise with my PL2).

Kelly

KCook said:

There may be a little confusion on M4/3 lenses here. The only 18-140 is a Nikon for the D5300, etc, APS-C DSLR. Oly has a 14-150 and Panny has a 14-140. While not bad, the Oly 14-150 is a little funky wide open at the tele end. Needs to be stopped down to f/8, so not tops indoors. The Panny 14-140 can be used with the Oly M10, but I would not expect to find the Panny lens in a bundle with the Oly body!

Any of these cameras will have noticeably less high ISO noise than the Oly PL2 (I also experience that noise with my PL2).

Kelly

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Hi thanks.., the 14-150 micro lens would not be a good choice ? M.Zuiko ED 14-150mm f4.0-5.6

would the Oly M10 with the above not be good together, as compared to DSLR EOS60D.

Olympus web site actually has everything on sale right now when purchased together.

also, I seen this lens too: M.Zuiko ED 12-50mm f3.5-6.3 EZ

Already own the 17mm, 14-42, and 40-150

I originally stayed away from DSLR's because of the size, seems my Pen E-PL2 is not performing as well as I need it, my first thought was to just finally get a full DSLR T5i,now leaning toward EOS60D ( 18-135mm IS lens ) or OMD-EM10

I found a store that has the OMD series which I am going to check out in person on Monday or Tuedsay

Appreciate all the help

Erm, the 40-150 that you already have is decidedly better than the 14-150. So purchasing the 14-150 would just be a step backwards!

The new 12-50 is no sharper than your 14-42. But it does have better AF and power zoom for video. So it could be seen as an improvement over the 14-42, if you don't mind it's bulk, which is a lot more like your 40-150 than the 14-42.

For indoor sports I would still take the Canon 60D over the Oly M10. Outdoors the M10 still would be behind the 60D, but not by so much. You should be able to find the older Oly M5 for about the same price as the M10, maybe even cheaper, if you get a used one (AF on the M5 is in theory better than the M10). Or make it your game plan to get the M10 for now, upgrade to a M1 down the road (the M1 would finally get to close to 60D performance). But, if you do go that upgrade route, you could get a PL5 now for a whole lot less than the M10 or M5. And the PL5 is much better than the PL2.

Ain't it fun to have so many choices?

badKelly

KCook said:

Erm, the 40-150 that you already have is decidedly better than the 14-150. So purchasing the 14-150 would just be a step backwards!

The new 12-50 is no sharper than your 14-42. But it does have better AF and power zoom for video. So it could be seen as an improvement over the 14-42, if you don't mind it's bulk, which is a lot more like your 40-150 than the 14-42.

For indoor sports I would still take the Canon 60D over the Oly M10. Outdoors the M10 still would be behind the 60D, but not by so much. You should be able to find the older Oly M5 for about the same price as the M10, maybe even cheaper, if you get a used one (AF on the M5 is in theory better than the M10). Or make it your game plan to get the M10 for now, upgrade to a M1 down the road (the M1 would finally get to close to 60D performance). But, if you do go that upgrade route, you could get a PL5 now for a whole lot less than the M10 or M5. And the PL5 is much better than the PL2.

Ain't it fun to have so many choices?

badKelly

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Hi, your "killn" me -- just kidding. there are way way too many choices,

I do appreciate your advise. So ideally get the M1, or EOS60D.

Never looked that close, is the M1, that much better than the M5 or M10, then I will look at either the M1 and adding the 14-50mm lens to my collection.

If I get the EOS60d ( I will end up with the older 14-135mm IS lens ) since the kit is only offered that way. or possibly getting body only and newer lens STM

*Honestly , would rather stay with mirrorless size, versus the EOS DSLR if the picture and video quality are comparably better and notably better than my older EPL2

I havent been able to see the OMD series in person, does it "feel" like the Pen series.

Thx

Marc

To the OP, I would avoid Canon whatever you do. My experience of the Rebel series sensor is not good. It is noisy and very out of date. It seems you feel that by 'graduating' to a DSLR you will get better images? The difference in IQ between the current generation of u4/3 and APS-C is smaller than it has ever been, so you'll have to weigh up the cost of lenses and decide how good your current lenses are. Thre is no point spending a fortune for minimal improvement. Having said that, the D5300 has the best IQ of the cameras you suggest and you should see an enormous improvement in your pictures from your current u4/3 if you get the right lens for it. I personally avoid Nikon due to shocking q.c. and an OMD, GH4 or GX7 will also give you very real improvements to your photography. But your pre-occupation with long FLs, indoor shooting and noise suggest an improvement in technique would be better. This could possibly save you a lot of money or inform your eventual upgrade path. The ability to use off-camera flash in an intelligent way would greatly increase the quality of your indoor pictures and for that you would admittedly be far better off with a DSLR, but that would entail some learning and a few additional pieces of equipment. You also must get a sturdy tripod if you don't already have one. I'd track down a camera club and ask one of the co-ordinators if you could be part of the group next time they meet.

shutterbud said:

To the OP, I would avoid Canon whatever you do. My experience of the Rebel series sensor is not good. It is noisy and very out of date. It seems you feel that by 'graduating' to a DSLR you will get better images? The difference in IQ between the current generation of u4/3 and APS-C is smaller than it has ever been, so you'll have to weigh up the cost of lenses and decide how good your current lenses are. Thre is no point spending a fortune for minimal improvement. Having said that, the D5300 has the best IQ of the cameras you suggest and you should see an enormous improvement in your pictures from your current u4/3 if you get the right lens for it. I personally avoid Nikon due to shocking q.c. and an OMD, GH4 or GX7 will also give you very real improvements to your photography. But your pre-occupation with long FLs, indoor shooting and noise suggest an improvement in technique would be better. This could possibly save you a lot of money or inform your eventual upgrade path. The ability to use off-camera flash in an intelligent way would greatly increase the quality of your indoor pictures and for that you would admittedly be far better off with a DSLR, but that would entail some learning and a few additional pieces of equipment. You also must get a sturdy tripod if you don't already have one. I'd track down a camera club and ask one of the co-ordinators if you could be part of the group next time they meet.

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Thanks. I cannot use a Flash because the indoor,gym doesn't allow flash photography

and often cannot get that close ( 14-42mm lens ) just usually isn't quite long enough and the 40-150mm is often good when i shoot video, and a little dark or noisy when taking indoor low light photos.

I am more informed , but also more confused. I prefer the advise here vs. local stores, they tend to push the EOS60D (as a end to all other cameras, best period ) with the standard zoom lens.

I seem to see a trend here that the OMD is the way to go, I seen the OMD-M5 and M10 online, no real offers on the newer M1 of course. Also, E-pl5 looks nicer than my E-pl2, just not sure how much better it would be. at first it looks identical , still missing view finder, not a deal breaker.

If I get the E-pl5, or one of the OMD ( I would probably try the newer 14-50mm )faster AF lens

all of the above are around the price, except the M1 ( suggesting, that prob is the best choice )

maybe the OMD-M5 might be a the best overall improvement M10 just seems to have wifi, but missing a few other features that the M5 and M1 have.

M1 AF is better than the M5 or M10. If you learn to use the manual pre-focus technique instead, then this advantage becomes moot.

For a still subject, still photo quality will be comparable between all of these, Canon and Oly. The Canon and M1 advantage is AF with an action subject.

Dunno how the video quality compares, I'm kind of disappointed with my PL2 in that regard. My guess is that the T5i would have the top video quality.

I have not had a chance to play with the OM-D models either, most of the stores around here stock only Samsung and Sony when it comes to mirrorless cameras.

There are an awful lot of happy Canon owners to "avoid Canon whatever you do"!!!

The "end to all other cameras, best period" are $3000 USD and up. The 60D, M1, and M5 are among the best consumer sector cameras.

The PL5 should be priced well under the others you are considering. Or you are talking to the wrong store.

Kelly

KCook said:

M1 AF is better than the M5 or M10. If you learn to use the manual pre-focus technique instead, then this advantage becomes moot.

For a still subject, still photo quality will be comparable between all of these, Canon and Oly. The Canon and M1 advantage is AF with an action subject.

Dunno how the video quality compares, I'm kind of disappointed with my PL2 in that regard. My guess is that the T5i would have the top video quality.

I have not had a chance to play with the OM-D models either, most of the stores around here stock only Samsung and Sony when it comes to mirrorless cameras.

There are an awful lot of happy Canon owners to "avoid Canon whatever you do"!!!

The "end to all other cameras, best period" are $3000 USD and up. The 60D, M1, and M5 are among the best consumer sector cameras.

The PL5 should be priced well under the others you are considering. Or you are talking to the wrong store.

Kelly

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Thanks, I have to drive about 2hours to get to a store that carries the OMD, which i will be doing soon.

OLY(mfg.) website has the M10 with 14-42 and 14-50, with a case at $949 free shipping

other places have the OMD M5 ( 14-50mm kit ) for around $1K with free shipping as well

after I can see them in person, I hopefully will have a better perspective.

**seems like the M5 and M10 are very similar few different features for each, but IQ looks to be about the same**

was thinking the built in flash would be nice to have,( just incase ) for the M10, but my E-pl2 flash does more harm than good. photos look soo much better or more natural when you don't use the flash.

Local stores - bestbuy and a few camera places must have stock in Canon as they assured to me the EOS60D ( 18-135 or 18-200 ) is the best choice ( for the money ), also they don't have any olympus mirrorless ( used to a few years back )

only Sony ( I was not that impressed with the a6000 )

the EOS60D was nice and relatively easy to use, but it was a big camera..

* I think I going to end up with either the M5 or M10, depending on how it feels to use *

hopefully !!! what a change from what I originally was looking into

That's odd. The built-in flash for my PL2 is outstanding (by built-in flash standards). Easily better than the flash with my 50D.

Kelly

KCook said:

That's odd. The built-in flash for my PL2 is outstanding (by built-in flash standards). Easily better than the flash with my 50D.

Kelly

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I guess its ok, on P(200 iso) or auto - seems to come out clearer when you can use a flash indoors, just makes the colors less natural ( maybe no worse than any other camera though )

I found the M5 and M10 prices about the same right now, and a used M1 for a resaonable price too, hopefully I'll get to that store tomorrow or Tuesday to see in person.

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

I am more informed , but also more confused. I prefer the advise here vs. local stores, they tend to push the EOS60D (as a end to all other cameras, best period ) with the standard zoom lens.

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They are pushing because they have a bonus. Moreover the lens and the sensor are not very good in today's standards. So Olympus is narrowing the gap because Canon was lagging seriously behind other manufacturers.

The big issue of the mirrorless system is the price/performance ratio. A combo that will perform worse than a real dSLR costs twice as much. Fuji and Sony have sensors that deliver the same quality as dSLRs (with the exception of AF system but this is not related to the sensor) but either the lens are expensive or not very good.

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

I seem to see a trend here that the OMD is the way to go, I seen the OMD-M5 and M10 online, no real offers on the newer M1 of course. Also, E-pl5 looks nicer than my E-pl2, just not sure how much better it would be. at first it looks identical , still missing view finder, not a deal breaker.

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These will provide a small improvement that you will appreciate. I, personally, would not invest more for that slight improvement that you'll barely notice unless I would have very good lenses in that system.

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

KCook said:

There may be a little confusion on M4/3 lenses here. The only 18-140 is a Nikon for the D5300, etc, APS-C DSLR. Oly has a 14-150 and Panny has a 14-140. While not bad, the Oly 14-150 is a little funky wide open at the tele end. Needs to be stopped down to f/8, so not tops indoors. The Panny 14-140 can be used with the Oly M10, but I would not expect to find the Panny lens in a bundle with the Oly body!

Any of these cameras will have noticeably less high ISO noise than the Oly PL2 (I also experience that noise with my PL2).

Kelly

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Hi thanks.., the 14-150 micro lens would not be a good choice ? M.Zuiko ED 14-150mm f4.0-5.6

would the Oly M10 with the above not be good together, as compared to DSLR EOS60D.

Olympus web site actually has everything on sale right now when purchased together.

also, I seen this lens too: M.Zuiko ED 12-50mm f3.5-6.3 EZ

Already own the 17mm, 14-42, and 40-150

I originally stayed away from DSLR's because of the size, seems my Pen E-PL2 is not performing as well as I need it, my first thought was to just finally get a full DSLR T5i,now leaning toward EOS60D ( 18-135mm IS lens ) or OMD-EM10

I found a store that has the OMD series which I am going to check out in person on Monday or Tuedsay

Appreciate all the help

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the em-10 body only and be done with it!

It you absolutely have to have good tracking AF (I never have) then open up your wallet and get the Em-1.

TEdolph

baloo_buc said:

advise needed moving up from micro 43 to dslr said:

I am more informed , but also more confused. I prefer the advise here vs. local stores, they tend to push the EOS60D (as a end to all other cameras, best period ) with the standard zoom lens.

Click to expand...

They are pushing because they have a bonus. Moreover the lens and the sensor are not very good in today's standards. So Olympus is narrowing the gap because Canon was lagging seriously behind other manufacturers.

The big issue of the mirrorless system is the price/performance ratio. A combo that will perform worse than a real dSLR costs twice as much. Fuji and Sony have sensors that deliver the same quality as dSLRs (with the exception of AF system but this is not related to the sensor) but either the lens are expensive or not very good.

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And then there is E-PM2 for $199 with lens. For those who shoot DSLRs with rear screen in Auto mode (which covers most people with DSLRs I have seen in the wild), it is perfect - and 3 times less than a similar T5, SL1 or D3300.

What you need is a full frame camera, a good fixed focal length telephoto and a tripod. That will cost you a very large amount of money! In the short time I have been doing photography I have learned at least one valuable lesson; there is no point trying to use a camera to do something it cannot do. I suggest you find something else to photograph. I am not being cruel or dismissive. Photography can easily become very expensive. Think of those who have spent tens of thousands of pounds and countless hours getting the perfect, elusive shot of a snow leopard in the himalayas, those who go on safari or the poor landscape photographers getting up at 5am to catch the sunrise. I feel your frustration! But one of the most valuable lessons is the one above. If a piece of equipment is inadequate for the task, find another task. :-D