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X-M1 default JPEG has overly deep shadows

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EvgeniK

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Let me start by saying that I am very experienced with DSLR photography and RAW editing, please read the end of this post, I don't want to bother you from the beginning :) Long story short: based on research I've done on the Internet, I've bought X-M1 with the intention of using it exclusively in fully automatic mode, JPEG only. I am kind of disappointed that most of the pictures come out very dark, specifically the shadows are so deep that they lack any detail at all.

So, I've experimented a little and believe that this could be fixed by setting shadows to -2, highlights to -1, DR 400. However, the problem is those settings can be used only in P, A, S, M modes. I specifically need those to be available in fully automatic mode. First because of my girlfriend and second because I intentionally don't want to bother myself with settings, RAW files, post processing, etc. The camera is great at recognizing correct scenes and the only flaw it has is it doesn't fill the shadows better. I thought I was buying the greatest travel camera with the greatest OOC JPEG files. Well, this is not exactly the case. I understand perfectly that if I want better pictures, I should use the more advanced modes, but come on, most cheapish point and shoot cameras did better in fully automatic mode.

And here's something about myself. Until a year ago I've been very keen DSLR user, I've had numerous cameras, most lately a Nikon D700. I consider myself an advanced amateur and very proficient in RAW editing, post processing in PS, using layers, etc. I believe I know how to shoot a technically perfect picture and how to obtain the best from a RAW file. I have used studio lighting and know a lot about exposure. Anyway, photography was my second hobby and I felt kind of exhausted at some point, so I just sold everything. Since then I am shooting rarely, with my iPhone only and with no postprocessing at all. Just point and shoot. That being said, I don't want to go back to DSLRS and all the hassle anymore :) I just need a camera with big sensor and good optics that can shoot in automatic mode :) Do you believe we could reach Fujifilm in some way, so they can fix their automatic mode a little or I should go for another brand/model?
 
EvgeniK said:
However, the problem is those settings can be used only in P, A, S, M modes. I specifically need those to be available in fully automatic mode. First because of my girlfriend and second because I intentionally don't want to bother myself with settings, RAW files, post processing, etc.
Click to expand...
What is so lacking in P mode vs A that it cannot be used instead?
 
Jared Huntr said:
EvgeniK said:
However, the problem is those settings can be used only in P, A, S, M modes. I specifically need those to be available in fully automatic mode. First because of my girlfriend and second because I intentionally don't want to bother myself with settings, RAW files, post processing, etc.
Click to expand...
What is so lacking in P mode vs A that it cannot be used instead?
Click to expand...
Actually I am referring not to A mode but SR+ which is recognizing different scenes such as greenery where it improves the green color, blue skies, portrait where it renders the skin with better color, night scenes, etc - there are probably more than 20 different scenes and it switches between them on the fly showing the currently detected scene on the screen. I can see it is really good at detecting those scenes. In P that would be impossible since the camera is only choosing a good exposure value and that's it. It won't change its color settings, nor will optimize aperture for shallower depth of field in case of portraits, and all other stuff the camera is doing behind the scene (no pun intended) in an instant.

I know it isn't exactly a point and shoot camera and the SR+ is mostly a bonus but why not perfecting it? I believe photography should be fun. On the other hand, X-M1 is not exactly a pro tool, it doesn't even have a viewfinder, so I believe automatic modes should be emphasized.
 
Any current generation Fuji camera in fully automatic mode is a bad idea. In spite of some popular features meant to appeal to the general public, the X-M1 is a professional camera and it's potential can only be realised when the person behind the camera gives a careful consideration to what's his doing. I, personally, hardly ever use those fully automatic modes because they are too restricting. Though the "night" mode is very good for shooting at night and it delivers nice results. As far as I know you can't change the "shadow" setting for the fully automatic modes (unless you convince Fuji to come up with a firmware update to fix this). I am using "A" almost all the time. And I also like to select ISO and DR manually because the camera doesn't always make the best decisions in this regard. If you know how to use the camera you can achieve the same image quality as you would with a T1. It's worth learning how to use it.
 
There are a couple of options that might work for you.
  1. Leave the camera in Auto and try changing the film simulation to Astia to see if that is more to your liking.
  2. Put the camera in P mode and set the film, shadows, and highlights. You can continue to shoot JPEG in this mode or shoot Raw+JPEG, and then only process the images that need it. P mode is just as easy to use as Auto (IMO).
  3. As you stated you are proficient in raw editing, it might be best to simply create a couple of import presets that give the tonality you desire. You can shoot raw and convert the files automatically during import to your computer. You don't need to spend any time post-processing when using this method; it's as easy as JPEG once you spend a few minutes setting it up.
 
EvgeniK said:
Let me start by saying that I am very experienced with DSLR photography and RAW editing, please read the end of this post, I don't want to bother you from the beginning :) Long story short: based on research I've done on the Internet, I've bought X-M1 with the intention of using it exclusively in fully automatic mode, JPEG only. I am kind of disappointed that most of the pictures come out very dark, specifically the shadows are so deep that they lack any detail at all.

So, I've experimented a little and believe that this could be fixed by setting shadows to -2, highlights to -1, DR 400. However, the problem is those settings can be used only in P, A, S, M modes. I specifically need those to be available in fully automatic mode. First because of my girlfriend and second because I intentionally don't want to bother myself with settings, RAW files, post processing, etc. The camera is great at recognizing correct scenes and the only flaw it has is it doesn't fill the shadows better. I thought I was buying the greatest travel camera with the greatest OOC JPEG files. Well, this is not exactly the case. I understand perfectly that if I want better pictures, I should use the more advanced modes, but come on, most cheapish point and shoot cameras did better in fully automatic mode.

And here's something about myself. Until a year ago I've been very keen DSLR user, I've had numerous cameras, most lately a Nikon D700. I consider myself an advanced amateur and very proficient in RAW editing, post processing in PS, using layers, etc. I believe I know how to shoot a technically perfect picture and how to obtain the best from a RAW file. I have used studio lighting and know a lot about exposure. Anyway, photography was my second hobby and I felt kind of exhausted at some point, so I just sold everything. Since then I am shooting rarely, with my iPhone only and with no postprocessing at all. Just point and shoot. That being said, I don't want to go back to DSLRS and all the hassle anymore :) I just need a camera with big sensor and good optics that can shoot in automatic mode :) Do you believe we could reach Fujifilm in some way, so they can fix their automatic mode a little or I should go for another brand/model?
Click to expand...
Post pics.
 
EvgeniK said:
Jared Huntr said:
EvgeniK said:
However, the problem is those settings can be used only in P, A, S, M modes. I specifically need those to be available in fully automatic mode. First because of my girlfriend and second because I intentionally don't want to bother myself with settings, RAW files, post processing, etc.
Click to expand...
What is so lacking in P mode vs A that it cannot be used instead?
Click to expand...
Actually I am referring not to A mode but SR+ which is recognizing different scenes such as greenery where it improves the green color, blue skies, portrait where it renders the skin with better color, night scenes, etc - there are probably more than 20 different scenes and it switches between them on the fly showing the currently detected scene on the screen. I can see it is really good at detecting those scenes. In P that would be impossible since the camera is only choosing a good exposure value and that's it. It won't change its color settings, nor will optimize aperture for shallower depth of field in case of portraits, and all other stuff the camera is doing behind the scene (no pun intended) in an instant.

I know it isn't exactly a point and shoot camera and the SR+ is mostly a bonus but why not perfecting it? I believe photography should be fun. On the other hand, X-M1 is not exactly a pro tool, it doesn't even have a viewfinder, so I believe automatic modes should be emphasized.
Click to expand...
I agree that the intelligent auto (SR+) works well in A1/M1 detecting modes and choosing shooting parameters. I would even say it does a better job than the majority of the pictures people take in the manual modes. And, of course, in the situations when you don't have time to set up shooting parameters manually, it's the best option you have. There are only two things I don't like: you can't save raw with jpeg, and you can't use exposure compensation. SR+ does tend to increase contrast in the dark areas for more dramatic look. Overall I actually like this rendering, though I would still do corrections in LR. I haven't seen a camera yet, which would consistently produce great OOC jpegs and wouldn't benefit from LR corrections.
 
EvgeniK said:
Let me start by saying that I am very experienced with DSLR photography and RAW editing
Click to expand...
Me too.

I've been shooting RAW for 10 years with Fujifilm S5 DSLR. Although I started out shooting jpeg way back, the versatility of RAW quickly converted me and I didn't look back.

When I got the X-M1, I thought with all the rave real-user reviews that the SOOC jpegs were so wonderful this might put an end to or at least diminish my RAW workflow, but my experience and conclusion about SOOC jpegs on the X-M1 are the same as yours.

The tone curve for SOOC jpegs is simply too dark in the shadow regions.

So now I shoot RAW again. Unlike others, I just shoot RAW exclusively. The idea that RAW+JPEG is a simpler workflow doesn't make sense to me. If you have to sort between the ones that need PP or not, especially as most of the jpegs aren't up to scratch, re the tone curve, it means more work. Might as well just have your own RAW processing settings and apply them across all files as a starting point. With LR you can even choose Provia, Astia or Velvia, as desired.

I'm an old fashioned shooter so only really interested in 4, on-camera things when shooting - focusing, aperture, shutter and ISO.

I usually shoot in A mode. Having set the ISO for the general lighting conditions, I can set the aperture and correspondingly the shutter, as desired using only one dial, although the compensation dial is often rotated too.

I feel the default setting over-exposes 90%+ of the time and so almost always use the -1 compensation as my own standard setting when shooting, to keep the general exposure and highlights in check. I do always adjust the compensation and can go to -2 or up to +1 so it does require a watchful eye. But -1 is my most common setting. If it goes outside the compensation limit I switch to M to set them manually.

As you want a fully automated camera for your GF, probably all this doesn't help you, apart from to agree with your findings and say that the idea this is a simple, automated, point and shoot device is not very realistic, IMHO.

Given all the auto settings, scene modes and the budget price relative to the others in the Fujifilm range, it should be an easy to use point and shoot (PAS), but that's not my experience. Maybe I gave up too easily and went back to my simple 4 basic settings and RAW too easily. With the scene modes I never got pleasing results, so had to reverse-engineer the thinking behind it, second guess a workaround and then not be happy with the end result. It was simpler to stick with what I know.

The X-M1 is capable of stunning results, given the time and patience to learn how to get the best out of it.

The (RAW) image quality it produces can hold up against many of the latest cameras including some 24MP DSLRs. At low ISO the 24MP will win on resolution but bump up the ISO a bit and a clean 16MP image from the X-M1 is arguably worth more than a noisy mid-range 24MP. Any benefit of additional resolution is diminished by noise. This is one place I think the X-Trans sensor system does produce better results. It is only marginal but it does slightly outperform bayer at 1600-6400 ISO, IMHO.

Ergonomics, handling and speed are another discussion. The X-M1 is slightly slower and in some shooting situations noticeably lacks an OVF.

Overall I would say this isn't a camera for novices unless they are prepared to learn the basic principles of photography.

It does shoot RAW too but if someone is just going to shoot jpeg and wants an easy to use PAS, I might be inclined to recommend looking at things like the Panasonic Lumix TZ60 or similar. Although I haven't tried them I believe they are better suited to novice users and the results from them can be very good.

Norman Young
http://www.noyo.co.uk/
 
Last edited:
noyo said:
EvgeniK said:
Let me start by saying that I am very experienced with DSLR photography and RAW editing
Click to expand...
Me too.

I've been shooting RAW for 10 years with Fujifilm S5 DSLR. Although I started out shooting jpeg way back, the versatility of RAW quickly converted me and I didn't look back.

When I got the X-M1, I thought with all the rave real-user reviews that the SOOC jpegs were so wonderful this might put an end to or at least diminish my RAW workflow, but my experience and conclusion about SOOC jpegs on the X-M1 are the same as yours.

The tone curve for SOOC jpegs is simply too dark in the shadow regions.

So now I shoot RAW again. Unlike others, I just shoot RAW exclusively. The idea that RAW+JPEG is a simpler workflow doesn't make sense to me. If you have to sort between the ones that need PP or not, especially as most of the jpegs aren't up to scratch, re the tone curve, it means more work. Might as well just have your own RAW processing settings and apply them across all files as a starting point. With LR you can even choose Provia, Astia or Velvia, as desired.

I'm an old fashioned shooter so only really interested in 4, on-camera things when shooting - focusing, aperture, shutter and ISO.

I usually shoot in A mode. Having set the ISO for the general lighting conditions, I can set the aperture and correspondingly the shutter, as desired using only one dial, although the compensation dial is often rotated too.

I feel the default setting over-exposes 90%+ of the time and so almost always use the -1 compensation as my own standard setting when shooting, to keep the general exposure and highlights in check. I do always adjust the compensation and can go to -2 or up to +1 so it does require a watchful eye. But -1 is my most common setting. If it goes outside the compensation limit I switch to M to set them manually.

As you want a fully automated camera for your GF, probably all this doesn't help you, apart from to agree with your findings and say that the idea this is a simple, automated, point and shoot device is not very realistic, IMHO.

Given all the auto settings, scene modes and the budget price relative to the others in the Fujifilm range, it should be an easy to use point and shoot (PAS), but that's not my experience. Maybe I gave up too easily and went back to my simple 4 basic settings and RAW too easily. With the scene modes I never got pleasing results, so had to reverse-engineer the thinking behind it, second guess a workaround and then not be happy with the end result. It was simpler to stick with what I know.

The X-M1 is capable of stunning results, given the time and patience to learn how to get the best out of it.

The (RAW) image quality it produces can hold up against many of the latest cameras including some 24MP DSLRs. At low ISO the 24MP will win on resolution but bump up the ISO a bit and a clean 16MP image from the X-M1 is arguably worth more than a noisy mid-range 24MP. Any benefit of additional resolution is diminished by noise. This is one place I think the X-Trans sensor system does produce better results. It is only marginal but it does slightly outperform bayer at 1600-6400 ISO, IMHO.

Ergonomics, handling and speed are another discussion. The X-M1 is slightly slower and in some shooting situations noticeably lacks an OVF.

Overall I would say this isn't a camera for novices unless they are prepared to learn the basic principles of photography.

It does shoot RAW too but if someone is just going to shoot jpeg and wants an easy to use PAS, I might be inclined to recommend looking at things like the Panasonic Lumix TZ60 or similar. Although I haven't tried them I believe they are better suited to novice users and the results from them can be very good.

Norman Young
http://www.noyo.co.uk/
Click to expand...
Thank you for the detailed answer. Seems we're in the same boat. The thing is I didn't want to go back to RAW photography and all that stuff. I may give a try though to the predefined RAW preset workflow as suggested by you and another guy here.
 
Here are some examples. Here's a picture shot with all settings default in the fully automatic SR+ mode:



798d2520ea6e44c69b7d994bc9e298e4.jpg

It seems like it's been dark. However it was a bright sunny day. As you can see, the camera has exposed for the sky and it is indeed a very dynamic and detailed sky, but everything else is almost totally lost.



Here's another example, first the default result in SR+ mode:

1c91682ca1a540c59558b761c7949ee5.jpg



And here's the same frame shot in P mode with shadows -2, highlights -1, DR 400, ISO auto (lower limit is 800 when DR is 400):

f9d96fea673f4f4fb70d981a96a31421.jpg



I don't see a problem shooting in P with those settings all the time, the problem is it isn't that good for low contrast types of scenes such as portraits. I am not sure what the solution is but it is obvious the camera does very dark pictures in most outdoor situations and I don't see this as normal at all.
 
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