The Moon tonight

alexisgreat

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I shot a bunch before the clouds rolled in, at different ISO settings (100,200,400) full manual mode, L size DR 100, since I was trying to see what the most number of pixels I could get on the moon. Main issue seems to be that the HS20+58A combo is very hard to handhold, it weighs about 3 pounds altogether. These are the best of the lot at each ISO that I got.

The moon diameter with this combo and these settings was around 1,360-1,365 pixels.



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Conditions can also play a HUGE roll in shooting the Moon.

Here was my very first attempt (on the 4th). This is the cropped version - handheld, 1000mm plus 1.4x IDZ:

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Also....look at the difference between my aperture and yours. I'm at f/11.
 
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Wow f/11.....you must be using a tripod right? I need to use one myself. Was this at L size? Even at f/5.6 I needed 1/80 sec shutter speed and the moon still came out dark.
 
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The diameter of the moon was approximately 1,360 pixels, using the standard diagonal to determine field of view (5760 pixels), that gives us a field of view of 2.25 degrees or about the same as using a 32mm EP on a 700mm telescope

http://dvaa.org/Epp.html

input 700mm for focal length and 60mm for aperture, and scroll down to Orion Sirius 32mm EP

On a telescope this gives us a magnification of (700/32) or 21.875x (50mm=1x) or approximately 1,094mm (close enough to 1,000mm!)

Using the image height for field of view (3456 pixels), we get 1.35 degrees or about the same as using a 40mm EP on a 1250mm telescope

input 1250mm focal length and 90mm aperture into the above link and scroll down to Orion Sirius 40mm EP.

On a telescope this gives us a magnification of (1250/40) or 31.25x or approximately 1,563mm.

All this assumes a lunar diameter of 0.53 degrees, it can vary from 0.49-0.57 degrees, depending on the moon's distance from the Earth.

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https://supermanalexthegreat.shutterfly.com/
 
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Wouldnt it be easier to just buy a nikon P600 lol 1440mm of reach without converters .
 
I was thinking about it and then saw all the bad reviews :(

The combo I used weighs a ton and I'm hoping I dont damage the lens assembly....... when I point it up the lens collapses towards the camera and when I point it down it goes all the way in the other direction haha.

How come they didn't build a zoom lock into these cameras?
 
I've found a couple that turned out better, using an old Nikon trick (from Best Shot Selector) by sorting the photos by size- usually the larger sized pics have more detail to them. I discovered that for the most part, the ones with the most detail were taken at ISO 200...... ISO 400 was too mushy and ISO 100 was not handholdable, so it seems like the ISO 200 pics had the most detail.



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It was handheld actually. I even tried one braced against a deck rail right after but the handheld one had come out better.
 
I shot a bunch before the clouds rolled in, at different ISO settings (100,200,400) full manual mode, L size DR 100, since I was trying to see what the most number of pixels I could get on the moon. Main issue seems to be that the HS20+58A combo is very hard to handhold, it weighs about 3 pounds altogether. These are the best of the lot at each ISO that I got.

The moon diameter with this combo and these settings was around 1,360-1,365 pixels.
This may sound harsh, Alex, but try to understand where I'm coming from. You're obsessing too much on measurements based on pixels. Wildlife photographers often describe their choice of gear as what "puts more pixels on the subject" but that's shorthand for saying "maximizing the subject in the frame", which ultimately increases the number of pixels used for the subject. You'd be better off (as I've already told you) to simply use a TC that provides the largest image size (and none of them entirely fill the frame with the moon) without ruining image quality.

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The diameter of the moon was approximately 1,360 pixels, using the standard diagonal to determine field of view (5760 pixels), that gives us a field of view of 2.25 degrees or about the same as using a 32mm EP on a 700mm telescope

http://dvaa.org/Epp.html

input 700mm for focal length and 60mm for aperture, and scroll down to Orion Sirius 32mm EP

On a telescope this gives us a magnification of (700/32) or 21.875x (50mm=1x) or approximately 1,094mm (close enough to 1,000mm!)

Using the image height for field of view (3456 pixels), we get 1.35 degrees or about the same as using a 40mm EP on a 1250mm telescope

input 1250mm focal length and 90mm aperture into the above link and scroll down to Orion Sirius 40mm EP.

On a telescope this gives us a magnification of (1250/40) or 31.25x or approximately 1,563mm.

All this assumes a lunar diameter of 0.53 degrees, it can vary from 0.49-0.57 degrees, depending on the moon's distance from the Earth.
Try to remember that this is a camera forum, not a telescope forum. While you may understand all of what you've written, for most people in this forum it comes across as gibberish. Possibly impressive sounding but gibberish nonetheless.

The whole point of getting to use as many of the sensor's 'pixels' is to maximize resolution, yet your photos invariably have next to the lowest, most dismal resolution I can recall seeing in this forum. I won't mention the name of the worst since he tremendously overreacts to criticism, even positive criticism. If resolution means anything to you, Fuji's HS## cameras are the worst possible choice. They're great for DR, but for resolution they're bottom dwellers. If you like the mechanical zoom and the way they feel in your hand that's one thing, but for your purposes the HS20 needs to be replaced, stat!

You also wrote "Even at f/5.6 I needed 1/80 sec shutter speed and the moon still came out dark."

Well yeah, I'd say so. According to the "Looney 11 rule" that I know you've heard of before, several times in fact since I have a tendency to repeat myself, says that for a good moon exposure you'd use f/11 with a shutter speed equal to the reciprocal of the ISO. So for ISO 100, you'd use f/11 @ 1/100th sec. You used 1/80th sec. at ISO 100 which is close enough to 1/100th, but your f/5.6 should have produced a moon that was two stops brighter than most people would have wanted, but your photos were 2 to 3 stops darker, so your photos are off by 4 or 5 stops which is a HUGE amount. It's enough to make one stop and wonder what's going on?

Here are two crops of your moon moon photo, excluding most of the dark sky that allows the histogram to only show the moon's distribution of tones. The second looks closer to see if any detail can be found. I can't. Either you should have used a tripod, waited for another day when the approaching storm might not have helped to ruin the photos, or ... replace your HS20 with one that doesn't always seem to produce photos that look like they were shot through dirty windows or that has a lot of internal haze-producing fungus. I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't want to spend a lot of time examining photos in detail only to later hear "Oh, the window I shot them through was dirty."

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The combo I used weighs a ton and I'm hoping I dont damage the lens assembly....... when I point it up the lens collapses towards the camera and when I point it down it goes all the way in the other direction haha.

How come they didn't build a zoom lock into these cameras?
Because Fuji never made any TCs that weighed more than 1/4 of what Canon's and Nikon's huge TCs weighed. But the Fuji cameras that did have TCs designed for them mounted the tele lens adapters using rigid tubes that were firmly attached to the camera bodies, not hung off the end of a delicate lens assembly. Nikon and some other companies added a lock to some of their lenses, but they were designed for only for the lens with at most a light plastic lens hood attached to the end, not for a lens that's trying to support a pound or two of additional glass.
 
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Thanks PR, all criticism is much appreciated! I was actually going to ask you what you thought was going on with how dark the moon was at that exposure. And I shot these outside, from my drive way.......... I also cleaned all glass surfaces on the camera so I just dont understand what's going on? My next idea is to use a tripod, but as Astropin mentioned, he didn't use a tripod for his shot. Since you have the exact same combo I have and since the moon will be the same phase tonight could you possibly shoot the HS20+58A and HS50+58A tonight and let me know how they turn out plus what kind of exposure times you get? I'm going to do the same with my combo, I'll be shooting at around 10 PM tonight. If it's cloudy tonight we could do this Thursday night- one of the next two nights should be fine.

Also, the settings I am using for this L size DR 100 NR Low Sharpness Soft Spot Metering could this have something to do with it?

I suggest we use f/6.4 (I remember you mentioned the Fuji lenses give maximum resolution at this aperture at full zoom) and ISO 100 and ISO 200 in manual mode with spot metering and lets see what kinds of shutter speeds we get.

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https://supermanalexthegreat.shutterfly.com/
 
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Thanks PR, all criticism is much appreciated! I was actually going to ask you what you thought was going on with how dark the moon was at that exposure. And I shot these outside, from my drive way.......... I also cleaned all glass surfaces on the camera so I just dont understand what's going on? My next idea is to use a tripod, but as Astropin mentioned, he didn't use a tripod for his shot. Since you have the exact same combo I have and since the moon will be the same phase tonight could you possibly shoot the HS20+58A and HS50+58A tonight and let me know how they turn out plus what kind of exposure times you get? I'm going to do the same with my combo, I'll be shooting at around 10 PM tonight. If it's cloudy tonight we could do this Thursday night- one of the next two nights should be fine.
Clouds and moon visibility permitting, I'll see. But there's something that doesn't make any sense. The lens could be dirty, it could have an ND filter, it still should provide good exposures because they're all taken into account by TTL metering. When I did my test shots with the HS35 with/without two different TCs the exposures were the same, so you should have the same underexposure problems even without mounting the DC58A. Because your photos weren't uploaded to your gallery and DPReview's stripping EXIF data out of in-line images, I couldn't check most of the EXIF values but one that was included was EC. Your photo shows 0 EC so I can't understand why your photos were so terribly underexposed unless your HS20's metering is defective. How does it do for normal daytime photos? Use one of your other cameras and compare what shutter speeds and apertures the meters try to use for the same ISO. Are they very similar for daytime photos? If not, see if resetting the HS20 helps. If they're the same, compare the metering for dark nighttime photos (not necessarily of the moon).

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Also, the settings I am using for this L size DR 100 NR Low Sharpness Soft Spot Metering could this have something to do with it?
No. Using the softest sharpness setting actually produces the highest possible resolution even if it doesn't seem like it at first glance. Higher sharpness settings only wipe out detail by highlighting/darkening edges to make them stand out, and it also adds artifacts that can be mistaken for extra detail. Higher DR levels are appropriate if you're trying to capture extremely contrasty images, but those moon photos have very little contrast. The right side of the histogram shows no tone levels at all so DR100% wasn't a problem. Spot metering couldn't have been a problem because to get an underexposed photo the spot would have had to have been on something much brighter than the moon. That could have happened if metered on a bright streetlight that was in the frame and that was cropped out of your photo, but I'm pretty sure that you didn't do that. If the HS20 had metered on the surrounding dark sky, the moon would have been overexposed, not underexposed, so I can't understand why you got those results unless your HS20 isn't metering properly, at least at night under those conditions. That's why I think that you should compare the HS20's metering with the metering from another camera, and/or test both cameras using manual mode using the same aperture and shutter speeds to see if the exposures are sometimes or always similar, and if not, whether they're always different or just sometimes, and under what conditions.

 
Thanks, PR I'll do that tonight! There is no streetlight in the frame but there is one just outside the frame- could that be it? It shines on my back and it's what I used to see the buttons on the camera when I was changing ISO. What kind of exif info do you need? I can give you anything you need I have all the originals and Irfanview supports extended EXIF.

Okay I also took some pictures without the TC just before I took the ones with the TC and they gave the same kind of exposure values, I'll upload those too if you want. In daylight (like those windows photos) I can do something like shutter speed 1/1000 sec f/5.6 ISO 320, with the TC it's actually 1/3 stop faster or at worse same exposure levels as without. I always use the same settings. The only things I change is I use custom mode/shutter priority for everything but the moon and astro and I use macro mode for macros.

What do you think of shooting at f/6.4 to maximum resolution at full zoom ISO 100+200 and manual exposure mode with spot metering? Should I choose a different shooting mode or picture size or both?

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https://supermanalexthegreat.shutterfly.com/
 
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Thanks, PR I'll do that tonight! There is no streetlight in the frame but there is one just outside the frame- could that be it? It shines on my back and it's what I used to see the buttons on the camera when I was changing ISO. What kind of exif info do you need? I can give you anything you need I have all the originals and Irfanview supports extended EXIF.
I rarely need any specific setting, but when I need something it's a lot more troublesome to have to write another reply asking "what did you use for ..." when the person that shot the photo may not remember or might have remembered the wrong value. Sometimes just looking through the EXIF data something might stand out that I wouldn't have necessarily thought of. I use Irfanview but it doesn't matter what Irfanview supports. I can't see it using Irfanview unless I'm able to download photos that contain the full EXIF data and to do that, the photos need to be downloaded from a gallery that has be set in the profile to allow downloads, or downloaded from a decent photo host like Smugmug or Zenfolio. I cringe when I see photos I want to look at are hosted on Flickr or Photobucket. Maybe people that use them don't know the best way to present their photos.

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Okay I also took some pictures without the TC just before I took the ones with the TC and they gave the same kind of exposure values, I'll upload those too if you want.
No, no, a thousand times no. I believe you. :)

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In daylight (like those windows photos) I can do something like shutter speed 1/1000 sec f/5.6 ISO 320, with the TC it's actually 1/3 stop faster or at worse same exposure levels as without. I always use the same settings. The only things I change is I use custom mode/shutter priority for everything but the moon and astro and I use macro mode for macros.

What do you think of shooting at f/6.4 to maximum resolution at full zoom ISO 100+200 and manual exposure mode with spot metering? Should I choose a different shooting mode or picture size or both?
Aperture is irrelevant. Even at the HS50's minimum aperture that produces the worst diffraction blurring, you should have seen more detail that was contained in your moon photos. Don't worry about metering. Use the Looney 11 variant of the Sunny 16 rule. Maybe your photo's lack of resolution is because your HS20 is unable to focus accurately on the moon. What I sometimes do when I use cameras that can't focus accurately on some small distant objects such as the moon is to use manual exposure setting and then prefocus on some brighter, larger targets such as distant lighted buildings, billboards, etc. and they point the camera at the moon and snap!

To make it easier when taking multiple photos, use manual focus as well, but use the AF button that Fuji gives you to autofocus while in manual mode (AE/AF LOCK). From what I recall, if you chimp, that throws the focus off and you'll have to re-autofocus for subsequent shots.
 
PR, I'm thinking that the dark moon could be because of the streetlight's glare coming from behind me- although 1/80 ISO 100 f/5.6 should be over exposure if anything- maybe it drowned out the light of the moon?

Lack of details I'm putting down to needing a tripod, as focus lock was quick and easy (maybe it says focus is locked but it isn't? Should I try focusing on a tree or light or something and then recompose while half pressing the shutter button?) I do know that the combo seemed really heavy to me, I had pain in both my arms and my legs and I was taking the pictures while kneeling.
 
It's certainly looks like these are not in focus.

Try manual or try focusing on a distant object, locking and then pointing at the moon. Although you really should be able to focus on the moon. I had no problem with autofocus on mine.

I used:

Aperture priority (set to f/11)

ISO 200 (it selected that automatically)

I was in "M" mode with DR set to 400. I would like to try the moon again set in "L" size for comparison.

Adam
 
Thanks, Adam, I'm wondering if it gave me a "false positive" telling me that they were in focus when they weren't. I'll try the focus and recompose trick.

Sorry, I just read that when MF you dont need to shutter half press, you use the AE/AF lock button.

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https://supermanalexthegreat.shutterfly.com/
 
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Very soft and most likely OOF shot Alex. Even if it is cloudy and full moon, it shouldn't be this way. Have you checked (use a torch) the front lens assembly? Might be something (mold or something) that is the cause of the softness and tons of hazy shots you have posted so far.

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Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/joms_birding
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Thanks Joms, I've used a lens pen to clean everything but there are some little white spots that aren't quite coming out- could that be mold?

Speaking of cloudy, right now the moon is hazy through a midlevel cloud deck so I guess no shooting tonight until this clears. I have a tabletop tripod ready that I use with a 60mm refractor, that should be enough, no?
 
Thanks Joms, I've used a lens pen to clean everything but there are some little white spots that aren't quite coming out- could that be mold?
Crystal-ish and somewhat translucent? Try a vacuum first and if it won't come out, disassemble the lens (google for HS10 cleaning). Edit: Here yah go...


Speaking of cloudy, right now the moon is hazy through a midlevel cloud deck so I guess no shooting tonight until this clears. I have a tabletop tripod ready that I use with a 60mm refractor, that should be enough, no?
If you can't handhold a 1000mm EFL at 1/100s, go for it. =D
 
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Translucent, I see them inside the lens and also on the lens barrel. They almost look like dried water droplets but whiter.
 

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