The Sky Really Is Falling

I forgot to mention an important point: it's silly to assume that everyone who buys DSLRs ends up bringing them with them EVERYWHERE and "OMG LOOKING LIKE A DORK". In many cases, size and weight doesn't matter much or can be dealt with when it does. Personally, most of my photography is done at home (pet and macro photography) in very suboptimal lighting conditions, where having a DSLR is exactly the beneficial route to go. I don't care how much my camera weighs or how much room it takes up at home. And for travel--I want the best photographs and can put up with extra weight. I'm thinking for average users it's similar: kid/pet/hobby photography at home (frequently in suboptimal light) and travel photography + event photography. How many people want fast autofocus in poor light and good sharp low noise photos of their kids with no flash? I see these questions a lot, looking for camera recommendations. That would be a DLR with a fast prime lens. For everything in between, there are cell phones and small cameras to fill in.

Anywhere your photography will raise eyebrows, it will probably NOT be because of the size of your camera. It will probably be because of a certain amount of obvious or implied invasion of privacy--and it can be just as awkward to think someone's taking photographs of you with their small P&S or a phone--or plain disregard for others' comfort, such as using excessive amounts of flash and loud shutter noise.
 
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I am surprised by all the antagonism that the OP raised. There have been too many generalities about why people do things. Right now I am shooting film in my old Nikon FM2n because I want to do that rather than pull out the digicams. I don't need to justify this to anyone, and I don't need an analysis by bloggers who don't know me. All you pseudo psychologists need to have a beer, and relax. You don't know what is going on in anyone's head.
Well Tom, it was a discussion about declining sales for all digital gear. Some will take personal offence when anyone suggests their precious camera is being upstaged by a new concept that just might render their chosen toy obsolete. Seriously it's quite funny. :-P
The sky is going to fall a little bit more, imo.

Nick Woodman is a lot like Oscar Bernack. Oscar was a mountaineer who wanted to show his friends pictures of the majestic vistas he saw on his hikes. At that time, the View Camera was heavy and needed a tripod, which Oscar was not going to carry on his treks. So he invented the famous small 35mm Leica. Everyone could carry it everywhere they wanted, of course its image quality was nowhere that of the View Camera.

Now Nick Woodman, was a surfer. He too wanted a camera that he could carry to show his surfing abilities and the surfing views he saw to his friends. There was no camera that could do that. So he invented the Go Pro. It shoots HD Video and Stills and you can shoot it sky diving, skiing, racing, use it in drones ... whatever. His company recently went public and he is now worth 2 Billion Dollars.

Now all the sports people will be buying that camera, whereas hitherto, they would have bought a dslr, so that market to is lost.
 
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GoPro, tiny sensor, nobody in sports will strap a DSLR to their head or helmet anyway, I don't think the video is very good on them let alone stills, anything looks okay to most people with a wide angle lens. People interested in DSLRs will still buy DSLRs, GoPro is small, waterproof and can be strapped or bolted to almost anything and is pretty limited by its sensor size and a 5mm lens? I have several cameras but have no desire for a go pro and personally, I believe it's just another fad. I have a bluetooth speaker for my phone but that doesn't mean I'm going to get rid or never buy a home stereo again.
 
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Size: certainly, smaller is generally more convenient (to a certain extent), so the decreasing size with increasing capability is a good trend. I don't think anyone's going to argue that they prefer larger and heavier.
Actually, for my serious landscape shooting I prefer my 1DMKIV which, with a good lens, is a bit of a hunk. I think that you should avoid broad generalizations as there are a lot of photographers doing a lot of different things out there.
 
Size: certainly, smaller is generally more convenient (to a certain extent), so the decreasing size with increasing capability is a good trend. I don't think anyone's going to argue that they prefer larger and heavier.
Actually, for my serious landscape shooting I prefer my 1DMKIV which, with a good lens, is a bit of a hunk. I think that you should avoid broad generalizations as there are a lot of photographers doing a lot of different things out there.

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Leon
http://pws.prserv.net/leons_pics/landscapes.htm
You've missed the point: if your lens could have been significantly smaller and lighter while offering the same results, would you not prefer that over its current version? I was talking about the progress of technological evolution in my post--I don't think anyone's against new things being smaller and lighter, IF they can offer the same or better results.
 
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I just saw an article in EE Times about camera ICs that shows use in stand alone digital cameras is declining and in 2013 was surpassed (in billions of dollars spent) by cameras in cell phones. Here is their graph and table:



icinsightscamchips440.jpg


In 2011 and 2012, stand alone camera were the largest piece of the market for camera ICs. In 2013 camera phones became the largest segment. if the trend continues as forecast, in 2016 camera phone segment will be more than twice as large as stand alone cameras. The only good news is that stand alone cameras will still be comfortably in second place.

I'm trying to think of what Nikon, Canon and Olympus are thinking as they look at projections like this. Sony makes chips for smart phones, and for digital cameras, they will probably do OK. Panasonic is kind of similar, I suppose, but I think Sony is advancing the state of the art more than Panasonic (and I own a Panasonic micro 4/3 camera, and like it). Canon and Nikon ... either they should start making sensors for cell phones, or they may not have enough market to justify making their own sensors for cameras in just a few more years. I think we may see Sony sensors in more cameras from other companies in the future.

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js
 
I just saw an article in EE Times about camera ICs that shows use in stand alone digital cameras is declining and in 2013 was surpassed (in billions of dollars spent) by cameras in cell phones. Here is their graph and table:

icinsightscamchips440.jpg


In 2011 and 2012, stand alone camera were the largest piece of the market for camera ICs. In 2013 camera phones became the largest segment. if the trend continues as forecast, in 2016 camera phone segment will be more than twice as large as stand alone cameras. The only good news is that stand alone cameras will still be comfortably in second place.

I'm trying to think of what Nikon, Canon and Olympus are thinking as they look at projections like this. Sony makes chips for smart phones, and for digital cameras, they will probably do OK. Panasonic is kind of similar, I suppose, but I think Sony is advancing the state of the art more than Panasonic (and I own a Panasonic micro 4/3 camera, and like it). Canon and Nikon ... either they should start making sensors for cell phones, or they may not have enough market to justify making their own sensors for cameras in just a few more years. I think we may see Sony sensors in more cameras from other companies in the future.
I think you're assuming that "making sensors" is horrendously expensive. It used to be. But it's not nearly as expensive as it used to be. In fact, it's as inexpensive as its ever been. So while the camera market is smaller today, the cost of making sensors is also a lot smaller, too. Therefore, the amount of market needed to "justify" making their own sensors is less than it used to be, and less than it has ever been. Sure, they may have to scale back a bit. But there will always be a need for sensors, in products and product categories that we have yet to realize. Imaging sensors are not going to go the way of film.
 
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"Canon expects to sell 7.6 million single-lens reflex cameras in 2014, which is 50,000 fewer than last year, while sales of compact models are forecast to drop 20 percent to 10.5 million units, the company said." -Bloomberg

Compact camera sales are sharply down.

DSLR sales are slightly down.

Mirrorless cameras sell poorly in North America and Europe, and may never be popular in those regions. Has the camera division of any mirrorless camera company managed to make a profit? Olympus "forecast a fifth annual loss for the camera business".
 
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We haven't seen the worst yet, if you think 2013 is bad, wait for final 2014 figure. By 2016, we will see heavy consolidation in camera makers: most won't survived, or be force into an insignificant niche market.
  • Average Joe are happy with cellphone quality and don't see a need to spend $400+ for any dedicated camera or a camcorder
  • Anyone who wants a DSLR or advance camera has already bought one
  • In fact, many Camera Enthusiast is trying to sell off their excess camera and consequently flooded Ebay and Craigslist with endless used camera at fraction of the retail cost
  • Lack of true innovation in STILL PHOTO, majority of innovation are in the VIDEO front (1080p, and now 4K) which most still photographer don't' care about
I see no END in sight. It'll get much MUCH WORST, we haven't even see the bottom yet.

You cannot possibly speak for every average joe. DSLRs, like computers, are upgradable devices that people will buy every so often. People flood ebay and craigslist because they want to buy newer cameras. Digital is in its infancy... this technology will change in many ways we won't see coming.
 
I just saw an article in EE Times about camera ICs that shows use in stand alone digital cameras is declining and in 2013 was surpassed (in billions of dollars spent) by cameras in cell phones. Here is their graph and table:

icinsightscamchips440.jpg


In 2011 and 2012, stand alone camera were the largest piece of the market for camera ICs. In 2013 camera phones became the largest segment. if the trend continues as forecast, in 2016 camera phone segment will be more than twice as large as stand alone cameras. The only good news is that stand alone cameras will still be comfortably in second place.

I'm trying to think of what Nikon, Canon and Olympus are thinking as they look at projections like this. Sony makes chips for smart phones, and for digital cameras, they will probably do OK. Panasonic is kind of similar, I suppose, but I think Sony is advancing the state of the art more than Panasonic (and I own a Panasonic micro 4/3 camera, and like it). Canon and Nikon ... either they should start making sensors for cell phones, or they may not have enough market to justify making their own sensors for cameras in just a few more years. I think we may see Sony sensors in more cameras from other companies in the future.

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js
Canon and Microsoft Agreement:

 
I don't think the slump is only due to people preferring mirrorless and smartphones that take "good enough" photos. It's also the fact that many people who bought a DSLR produced in the last five years (or even older) think that it's still good enough and they see no reason to upgrade (except for pros and gearheads). They prefer to invest in lenses, flashes etc, or just keep snapping away with kit lenses or superzooms.

You can see the same trend in the desktop/laptop/smartphone/tablet industries. Progress is much faster when a new technology is introduced and there's a real need to upgrade. As the technology matures, this need almost disappears and is replaced in some people by the "itch" to upgrade. PC sales have plummeted, but many people still need PCs for the performance, laptop sales have slumped but they still sell because they allow for more serious computing than tablets, tablet sales are now cannibalized by phablets and smartphone growth is slowing because people find their 2-yo phone still good enough (which was not the case 3-4 years ago when new models offered a substantial real-world performance increase.)
 
In a nutshell - you can't scale to infinity. And that is what the manufacturers have done. They didn't think about saturation and product life cycle. We see manufacturers do this time and time again - TVs, computers, cell phones, ..... and now cameras. When will ever learn?
 
Totally agree! There is just one planet here. But wouldn´t it be healthy to grow for some time, and then settle on some level? You know, people wants new cam, new people born, so there should be about steady demand, if there doesn´t come some disruptive technology. There is no other reason to go down if you don´t fail.

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Why does he do it?
 
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In a nutshell - you can't scale to infinity. And that is what the manufacturers have done. They didn't think about saturation and product life cycle. We see manufacturers do this time and time again - TVs, computers, cell phones, ..... and now cameras. When will ever learn?
I think that's the wrong perspective. Every product category has its limits. But until you hit that limit, you need to sell as many units of that particular product as you can. That's what manufacturers do. They capitalize on a product, and they sell it. It's foolish and naive to think that manufacturers should, instead, sell products at a much lower rate. What would that gain them? It only "gains" them lower sales-- and higher production costs because of lower economies of scale. Even if camera manufacturers had done that (purposely sell cameras at a slower rate), smartphone cameras still would have come along regardless! You can't stop the march of technology, and the inevitable decline in popularity of certain products. You can only sell as many of those products as you can until the day when it stops being so popular. Eventually, something is going to come along that sends your product into decline. In the mean time, manufacturers are smart to sell as many as they can until that point comes. If you're not selling to the point of "saturation", then you're just leaving money on the table.

Take a look at Apple. They know that every one of their products has a saturation point. They don't expect to survive on any one of their products. Computer sales would eventually hit a saturation point, so they moved on to the iPod. iPods would eventually hit a limit, so they moved on to the iPhone. iPhone would eventually hit a limit, so they brought out the iPad. Now iPad sales are hitting a saturation point, and they'll move on to something else. I think manufacturers are far more aware of "saturation and product life cycle" than you give them credit for. But from the perspective of being the armchair CEO that you are, you think, "My God, aren't they seeing this!?!? I'm so much smarter than them! Don't they realize what's happening?" The answer is yes, they know, they see, and they understand that it's a perfectly natural product arc.
 
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In a nutshell - you can't scale to infinity. And that is what the manufacturers have done. They didn't think about saturation and product life cycle. We see manufacturers do this time and time again - TVs, computers, cell phones, ..... and now cameras. When will ever learn?
I think that's the wrong perspective. Every product category has its limits. But until you hit that limit, you need to sell as many units of that particular product as you can. That's what manufacturers do. They capitalize on a product, and they sell it. It's foolish and naive to think that manufacturers should, instead, sell products at a much lower rate. What would that gain them? It only "gains" them lower sales-- and higher production costs because of lower economies of scale. Even if camera manufacturers had done that (purposely sell cameras at a slower rate), smartphone cameras still would have come along regardless! You can't stop the march of technology, and the inevitable decline in popularity of certain products. You can only sell as many of those products as you can until the day when it stops being so popular. Eventually, something is going to come along that sends your product into decline. In the mean time, manufacturers are smart to sell as many as they can until that point comes. If you're not selling to the point of "saturation", then you're just leaving money on the table.
Agreed. And like all technologies, the real improvements from model year to model year are getting fewer and fewer and harder to get excited about. Now that the smartphone can change your TV channel, operate your heating and air conditioning, take your pulse, tell you where gasoline is cheaper, replace a camera, GPS, wristwatch, and personal computer... then what is left to do next?

At some point, "feature overload" sets in, and people stop getting excited about the 20,000th new app....
Take a look at Apple. They know that every one of their products has a saturation point. They don't expect to survive on any one of their products. Computer sales would eventually hit a saturation point, so they moved on to the iPod. iPods would eventually hit a limit, so they moved on to the iPhone. iPhone would eventually hit a limit, so they brought out the iPad. Now iPad sales are hitting a saturation point, and they'll move on to something else. I think manufacturers are far more aware of "saturation and product life cycle" than you give them credit for. But from the perspective of being the armchair CEO that you are, you think, "My God, aren't they seeing this!?!? I'm so much smarter than them! Don't they realize what's happening?" The answer is yes, they know, they see, and they understand that it's a perfectly natural product arc.
Apple is a good example. To survive, a company must stay ahead of the technology, and be able to move quickly after the market saturation point is reached. It probably is important to note that many of the car builders were initially carriage builders who make the transition successfully to the new technology.

To a large extent the camera makers are adjusting to the changing market. They are making more high end cameras, more superzoom cameras, more rugged cameras.... in effect, going where the cell phone can't go. At least for now.

But the bottom line is that two thirds of their sales have evaporated in the past four years. If the CIPA numbers are to be believed, the same number of companies are fighting for a market that has shrunk by two thirds. This can't be good news for anyone in the industry.

The camera makers can improve their margins a little by selling higher end goods. But they cannot do much about a drop of 80 million cameras being sold. Many of these companies weren't profitable when the market was three times larger than it is today. Now, they may have no hope at all. This is why I see consolidation coming.

Wasn't General Motors once a dozen different companies? It started out with one brand, Buick, then kept acquiring other companies.
 
Agreed. And like all technologies, the real improvements from model year to model year are getting fewer and fewer and harder to get excited about. Now that the smartphone can change your TV channel, operate your heating and air conditioning, take your pulse, tell you where gasoline is cheaper, replace a camera, GPS, wristwatch, and personal computer... then what is left to do next?

At some point, "feature overload" sets in, and people stop getting excited about the 20,000th new app....
Good talk.

Now I believe this is the key. They had the power to show how mobile phones are lousy at all that. They didn´t , and they also killed it with very limited set of features. This is the answer, at least in my eyes.
To a large extent the camera makers are adjusting to the changing market. They are making more high end cameras, more superzoom cameras, more rugged cameras.... in effect, going where the cell phone can't go. At least for now.
They should do that decades ago. Milked it to death instead.
But the bottom line is that two thirds of their sales have evaporated in the past four years. If the CIPA numbers are to be believed, the same number of companies are fighting for a market that has shrunk by two thirds. This can't be good news for anyone in the industry.
I believe it is not that bad due to certain things, but anyway, even half is very much. But keep in mind that even with half, they still generate profit. There are not many reasons to shut down your good business, when it halves. It still makes good living, right? So I believe most companies are not going anywhere, untill they decide they can find more profitable business. No reason to go bankrup in current situation, unless they did something very wrong.
The camera makers can improve their margins a little by selling higher end goods. But they cannot do much about a drop of 80 million cameras being sold.
There are things to do. Some you mentioned, and some you didn´t . They still can mount high quality camera modules in phones. I´m waiting for that with my cash... This kind of infiltration would propably bring half of that lost money back. But they still stuff those small sensors in phones.
Many of these companies weren't profitable when the market was three times larger than it is today. Now, they may have no hope at all. This is why I see consolidation coming.
I hope they have leaders with different angle of view. It´s the same as world so called crysis - this doesn´t mean that you can make twice as more compared to previous year, when you are good enaugh. It´s just statistical thing made from dated results. You have the power to be different. So it might be falling with free fall, if they do nothing or they help it to fall, but there also are ways to stay or rise. It all depends on "driver"...

The same with women. They can´t make you do what they want, because YOU are the man, you decide, and you wear the pants. Untill she finds a way to make you want to do that thing she wants. She has the power, so.... It all needs a little bit of brain utilisation.
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Why does he do it?
 
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The camera makers can improve their margins a little by selling higher end goods. But they cannot do much about a drop of 80 million cameras being sold. Many of these companies weren't profitable when the market was three times larger than it is today. Now, they may have no hope at all. This is why I see consolidation coming.

Wasn't General Motors once a dozen different companies? It started out with one brand, Buick, then kept acquiring other companies.
The difference is that most of today's "camera manufacturers" don't just make cameras. Canon makes less than a third of their revenue from "imaging", and even less of that "imaging" money comes from consumer camera products. Fuji only makes 11% from imaging. Olympus only makes 15% of their revenue from imaging. Ricoh/Pentax only makes 5% of their revenue from imaging. In other words, most of these companies don't depend on camera sales to survive. A company like Nikon, which gets most of their revenue from "imaging", are in a more precarious situation when it comes to the ups and downs of the camera business. But that's not the case with many other "camera" companies. A company like Fuji will probably do just fine selling to a niche market of photo enthusiasts. After all, with only 11% of their revenue coming from "imaging" (and even a smaller percentage coming from actual consumer camera and lens sales), it's not as if they depend on huge camera sales to stay in business.

The car industry, especially in the early days of the automotive industry, was quite different because all these car companies did was make cars. They weren't anywhere close to being as diversified as many of today's "camera" companies are.

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But I do agree that, in the years to come, we'll probably see shifts resulting in the decline in camera sales. However, that's not exactly an insightful revelation. Business is constantly shifting throughout time. The only constant is change.
 
In other words, most of these companies don't depend on camera sales to survive.
True, but in the long run, will the "smaller camera players" tolerate the existence of unprofitable camera divisions?
 

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