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My boss found out...

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Uly,

Strange as it may seem, my job description does include that statement. I think most employers include that in their job descriptions.

I'd put money on the fact that that if you held a job working for somebody else, that it probably had that clause in it as well.

Anyways I'll be tracking my time and if I'm feeling "used", next year it will be a different conversation with the boss...

Lou

http://www.pbase.com/loug
Sony F717, MCON 35, TCON14B, WCON08B
Sunpak 383, Cokin / Hoya Filters, Epson Stylus 890
Ulysses said:
"anything else the job requires". Heheheheh... that's not a
contract I'd sign.
pickles said:
I work for a state university too....most employment agreements for
state universities have some wording that says "and anything else
the job requires." That loosely means if you're told/asked to do
something during your work day - you do it - no extra pay. State
institutions also usually don't let employees bid on jobs. If the
university wanted to hire a photographer, the job would be put out
on bids, and a university employee would not be eligible to bid on
the job. State unis also usually don't have a means of paying
overtime or for extra work - their means of compensation is usually
comp time. You give up quite a bit when you sign the contract with
the devil.
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
 
Phil,

I haven't spoken with anybody yet. I presented some rough images to my internal folks, they decided what they liked and tomorrow I'm scheduled to go out to the field again to capture some additional images just to make sure we capture some optimal images.

I will be asking the printer/layout responsibility questions come this Tuesday to get the details on all of this. Right now I beleive all I'm expected to do is to provide the image... but again, if more is required of me, then I'll need some help - hence this post. :)

Lou

http://www.pbase.com/loug
Sony F717, MCON 35, TCON14B, WCON08B
Sunpak 383, Cokin / Hoya Filters, Epson Stylus 890
Phil F said:
Hi,

Zipper does raise some good points here. It certainly gets
interesting when you start to think about who is responsible for
getting the job done correctly. In this case, Lou should ensure
that he doesn't have responsibility for the print. Hopefully, his
colleagues will have the relationship with the printer under
control.

Lou, have you spoken to the people who are doing the layout?

Patrick, Any thoughts on Zipper's comments?

Regards,
Phil
Click to expand...
 
The talk of "why" brought back memories for me from the late 1940's & 50's. I have always been the type of person the remembers things better longer if I know why. As a kid my Dad considered that "back talk" or "talking back". Mom had been a teacher and understood where I was coming from but Dad never did.
Jane
Jose Noway said:
Heh, it's the Mom-thing. Sorry about that. Good for you, wanting to
know all the whys-- it's so cool to know why something works (or
doesn't). You're going to have a ball doing this.

Nancy
Click to expand...
 
Experience is always good to have under your belt.

It wouldn't hurt to at least suggest to them that you'd like some sort of compensation, preferably monetary. They can only shrug their shoulders. Often they'll meet you somewhere in the middle. That's usually what I've done, particularly on such a job with a wide circulation.
Jose Noway said:
But did you get paid in the beginning?
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
That's all I'm getting at, Lou. :-)

And good for you. I'm not trying to turn you into a money-grabbing greedy guy. Honest. That's not me, and I'm sure it's not YOU.

But the worker is deserving of his wages, and I seriously doubt that photography comes under your job description even by reason of the clause in your contract (gawwd, they'd have you doing all sorts of unreasonable things otherwise.... why not have you use your car and gas to haul products across several states without compensation or some other nutty thing??).

You'll have adequate time to study technique, as well as how to price a job like this. I'm going to quote Shay here, with a a resource that will be of GREAT help to you so that you can find out how much a job like this would be worth. Hope this helps you in the future.

Perhaps the biggest lesson to be learned from this book is: Do NOT be afraid to charge what the job is worth! That's usually what holds people back, myself included. Thinking you're not good enough, or that they'll never pay THAT for a digital image. Well, guess what? They're not paying for a digital image. They're paying for a photographer .

You'll lose some jobs. And you'll retain others. In the end, you'll be happier that you and your skill were valued enough with some tangible demonstration of that value other than a handshake. And your future in photography will also be protected if you'd like to do more with it.

I do freebies for friends and family. So does Shay. But this one for you could be a stepping stone for future work.

Check out this quote from Shay:

=======================================

It is hard to answer the question without more information like how the images will be used, how many images, and who is using them. My best suggestion for anyone wanting to sell images is to pick up the book:

Pricing Photography
third edition
by Michal Heron and David Mactavish
Allworth Press

It can make the difference in the first sale you make. For example, a single billboard/transit display image can range in price from $2500 on the low side to $6000 in the USA depending on many factors. If you want your work to make what it is worth, definitely take a peek at the book.
Lou Gonzalez said:
Anyways I'll be tracking my time and if I'm feeling "used", next
year it will be a different conversation with the boss...
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
You don't start getting paid for photography until you start asking for it. The later you put off the asking the longer it takes to get paid.

There is no requirement to offer your stuff free the first time just to get started. It really does boil down to just negotiating every deal. If you don't, they get it for free (yay for them) and then they expect you to do it again for free in the future as well as tell their friends you do good work for free. Turns into a nasty little cycle that doesn't have to be.

So do this one for free if you feel you want to, but next time get at least something practical if not going rates. The more people give their work away the more people will come to expect photographers to work for free for the love of it and their name on a piece of paper (woo hoo).
Ulysses said:
It wouldn't hurt to at least suggest to them that you'd like some
sort of compensation, preferably monetary. They can only shrug
their shoulders. Often they'll meet you somewhere in the middle.
That's usually what I've done, particularly on such a job with a
wide circulation.
Jose Noway said:
But did you get paid in the beginning?
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
--
Shay

My Sony F707 & F717 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp
 
That book estimates the average price of this photography project would be around $775 - $950 for a front cover on an internal house publication for a corporation with a 5,000 to 25,000 unit circulation.

That is for using one of the photographers stock photos. You could get more if this were for a custom image shot on assingment ($1250 - $3500)

--
Shay

My Sony F707 & F717 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp
 
Being in Telecommunications, I'm sure Photography wasn't intended when they wrote "other duties as assigned" in my job description... :) and I guess thats why I don't really mind doing this as a freebie. And frankly speaking, photography is a hobby for me, at best. So right now I'm having fun. Its not my livelyhood.

My boss is a reasonable person and if this becomes a yearly event, I'll most certainly negotiate for fair compensation. And I will definitely look up that book that Shay metnions below.

Thanks for your encouraging words.

Lou

http://www.pbase.com/loug
Sony F717, MCON 35, TCON14B, WCON08B
Sunpak 383, Cokin / Hoya Filters, Epson Stylus 890
Ulysses said:
And good for you. I'm not trying to turn you into a money-grabbing
greedy guy. Honest. That's not me, and I'm sure it's not YOU.

But the worker is deserving of his wages, and I seriously doubt
that photography comes under your job description even by reason of
the clause in your contract (gawwd, they'd have you doing all sorts
of unreasonable things otherwise.... why not have you use your car
and gas to haul products across several states without compensation
or some other nutty thing??).

You'll have adequate time to study technique, as well as how to
price a job like this. I'm going to quote Shay here, with a a
resource that will be of GREAT help to you so that you can find out
how much a job like this would be worth. Hope this helps you in the
future.

Perhaps the biggest lesson to be learned from this book is: Do NOT
be afraid to charge what the job is worth! That's usually what
holds people back, myself included. Thinking you're not good
enough, or that they'll never pay THAT for a digital image. Well,
guess what? They're not paying for a digital image. They're paying
for a photographer .

You'll lose some jobs. And you'll retain others. In the end, you'll
be happier that you and your skill were valued enough with some
tangible demonstration of that value other than a handshake. And
your future in photography will also be protected if you'd like to
do more with it.

I do freebies for friends and family. So does Shay. But this one
for you could be a stepping stone for future work.

Check out this quote from Shay:

=======================================

It is hard to answer the question without more information like how
the images will be used, how many images, and who is using them. My
best suggestion for anyone wanting to sell images is to pick up the
book:

Pricing Photography
third edition
by Michal Heron and David Mactavish
Allworth Press

It can make the difference in the first sale you make. For example,
a single billboard/transit display image can range in price from
$2500 on the low side to $6000 in the USA depending on many
factors. If you want your work to make what it is worth, definitely
take a peek at the book.
Lou Gonzalez said:
Anyways I'll be tracking my time and if I'm feeling "used", next
year it will be a different conversation with the boss...
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
 
Wow! So now I understand why I got such spirited responses. Thanks for the info.

Lou

http://www.pbase.com/loug
Sony F717, MCON 35, TCON14B, WCON08B
Sunpak 383, Cokin / Hoya Filters, Epson Stylus 890
Shay Stephens said:
That book estimates the average price of this photography project
would be around $775 - $950 for a front cover on an internal house
publication for a corporation with a 5,000 to 25,000 unit
circulation.

That is for using one of the photographers stock photos. You could
get more if this were for a custom image shot on assingment ($1250
  • $3500)
--
Shay

My Sony F707 & F717 Gallery: http://www.shaystephens.com/portfolio.asp
My F717 Observations: http://www.shaystephens.com/f717.asp
Click to expand...
 
Hi there, Lou.

This has been a most stimulating and educational thread on several different levels.

That's one reason I enjoy the forum so much. The sum total of knowledge that you receive here can be likened to several hours of college educational credit (once you sort through the noise and get to the real meat of good discussions).

Thanks, also, for understanding where Shay and I were coming from. It's going to benefit you in the future. Photography is not my primary livelihood either. But what I've gotten from it both on a level of joy as well as on a professional level has been equally fulfilling. I'm sure it will be for you, as well.

Enjoy the job. Experiment with it as you are able. Find a way to drop some seeds so as to lay the groundwork for more fair compensation the next time this rolls around.

And have a good time! :-)

--

Ulysses
 
Patrick Murphy said:
Phil F said:
Patrick, Any thoughts on Zipper's comments?
Click to expand...
Yes. ZipperZ and I are actually saying similar things. I agree with
many points he makes, such as keeping in mind potential future uses.
Click to expand...
Patrick Murphy said:
TIFF VS. JPEG

I agree that if you look closely you can detect differences between
TIFF and JPEG. No doubt about it. And if you have Memory Stick
space (14 extra MB per TIFF) and time (30 seconds to write each
TIFF to the Memory Stick), you should feel free to shoot everything
in TIFF.
Click to expand...
agreed.
Patrick Murphy said:
But the real question is whether any detectable TIFF/JPEG
differences are significant or objectionable to the end viewer.
This factor, plus the factors of memory size and writing time and
potential end use, will be weighted differently by different people.
Click to expand...
also agreed
Patrick Murphy said:
For example, Phil Askey feels the F717's TIFF mode would not
normally be necessary assuming you turn down in-camera sharpening:
"there's little reason to use TIFF (unless you like the idea of
using 14 MB a shot), JPEG Fine provides all the detail with little
in the way of artifacts."
Click to expand...
i never read that before. interesting
Patrick Murphy said:
Every person deciding whether to use TIFF or JPEG will arrive at a
slightly different decision based on how they weigh factors and on
their value system. The result is like religion or politics -- any
words I write here will not change peoples' opinion.
Click to expand...
Agreed and neither will mine. Its good to have individuals like yourself to inform this evolving STF forum. If you havent noticed theres a bit of a trend of more and more people having prints professional printed (4color) or getting hired to do jobs. It is best that every photographer knows everything about pre-press full color. I firmly believe a photographer 'can' be a 1stop shopping professional offering print services, promotion and graphic solutions or even mailing and distribution. Become a total marketing guru. Also note that with knowledge and jobbing services will result in additonal markups and additional income. Well worth it. Less worries for my client. He tells me what he wants. I do it all. Something for all to think about. Grab a piece of the pie :o)
Patrick Murphy said:
WHO SHOULD CONTROL PRINTING: PHOTOGRAPHER OR PRINTER?

On who does what in pre-press, ZipperZ and I come at this from
slightly different angles.

ZipperZ's view is to have the photographer be in control of how the
final image looks. I completely agree with him -- but only if the
photographer knows about bleeds and colorspaces and CMYK and dot
gain and screen angles and other printer-related factors.
Click to expand...
I agree too but i dont know if its imperative that the photographer know if his photo is run 2-up or 4-up or what type of paper or metal plates are used. I would think the photographer is maily concerned is the end result is exactly as photographed.
Patrick Murphy said:
For Lou Gonzalez, my advice was aimed at a non-professional
photographer getting a photograph offset-printed for the first
time. My view is that the printer has the ultimate responsibility
for pre-press issues.
Click to expand...
Patrick Murphy said:
Ideally, the photographer's main concern is to create his desired
high-quality image in the right size and proportion, and to provide
a sample (or approve a proof). Then, the printer should know best
to turn that image into thousands of high-quality offset-printed
copies.

WHO SEES RED WHEN RED = FUSCHIA

ZipperZ writes:
Patrick Murphy said:
Your client is not going to pay you for something
that comes out printed red when it should be fushia.
Gonna blame it on the printer???
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Patrick Murphy said:
An excellent question. To decide this, consider Lou Gonzalez and
his particular situation.

If Lou provided the printer with a file that had red, and with a
sample that had red, and the printer agreed to do the CMYK
conversion ... then I would blame the printer if red came out as
fuschia.

Even if Lou was forced by the printer to do the CMYK and it came
out fuschia, I would STILL blame the printer. That's because Lou
does not have print experience and should not be expected to know
what tweaks are necessary to get RGB red to print as CMYK red on
paper.

I would only blame Lou if he provided a CMYK file against the
printer's recommendation that he (the printer) do the RGB-to-CMYK
conversion.
Click to expand...
agreed on all points but its through knowledge and possibly some mistakes that he and others learn how to control their output image.

My point is if the photographer does the CMYK conversion him/herself and sees the color shift then it can still be tweeked in PS. Saves a full day of pre-press work and set-up. We shoot fashion merch for a fairly big client and we cannot have printer issues even at the proof. Chocolate brown sweaters must look choc-brown not black.
Patrick Murphy said:
I could go into more detail on what ZipperZ wrote. However, I think
the above will give a general idea of the similarities and
differences between ZipperZ and me. My guess is he has done a lot
of pre-press and thus prefers close control of the image -- which
as an expert he should have. I hope Lou gets to do many more print
jobs and can eventually learn more about pre-press production.

-- Patrick Murphy
Click to expand...
great info Patrick

--
Posting these days requires either dedication or medication...
cheers
Zip:P

 
Shay Stephens said:
So do this one for free if you feel you want to, but next time get
at least something practical if not going rates. The more people
give their work away the more people will come to expect
photographers to work for free for the love of it and their name on
a piece of paper (woo hoo).
Click to expand...
I don't see anything wrong with that. Not everybody is interested in making photography into a business for themselves.

Roy.
 
Roy van der Woning said:
I don't see anything wrong with that. Not everybody is interested
in making photography into a business for themselves.
Click to expand...
And there's nothing wrong with trying to make a reasonable and honest $$$ if the company will pay for it either. Remember, this isn't like doing a freebie for Nana. :-)

--

Ulysses
 
Jpak --

Good point. Yes, save your "digital negatives" -- what you get from the camera. If you do a lot of Photoshop work on the photo AND you may do additional work later, then save your changes in PSD or TIFF format.

In my situation, many of my photos get a minute of routine work (level adjust/sharpen) and then get printed one time. I save in high quality JPEG because
1) it saves roughly 80% in space (bytes), and

2) if I need to do additional edits it only takes a minute or two to re-adjust starting from the "digital negative" (original camera file).

And I agree with you. Even in my workflow where the result is high quality JPEG, I would not keep re-editing my JPEGS since after a while the image quality loss would become noticeable or objectionable. I would go back to the digital negatives or any PSDs/TIFFs saved from intensive photoshopping sessions.

-- Patrick Murphy

BTW, I put up a thread about TIFF vs. JPEG for print with an example image saved in three different quality levels of JPEG.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=5386854

This is not what you brought up about re-saving JPEGs a number of times but the general principle is the same -- at some point you do lose real, noticeable quality.

Thanks for the reminder about re-saving.
 
Well, yeah. I'd do it for free if he promised to be my friend. Nothing wrong with that. :-)

Besides, most of their wallpaper is pretty stinky. I'd be happy to give them some nice wallpaper.
Shay Stephens said:
So if Bill Gates approached you and asked you to provide the
picture that will be the default wallpaper for the next version of
Windows, you would give him the picture for free?
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
 
Ulysses said:
Besides, most of their wallpaper is pretty stinky. I'd be happy to
give them some nice wallpaper.
Shay Stephens said:
So if Bill Gates approached you and asked you to provide the
picture that will be the default wallpaper for the next version of
Windows, you would give him the picture for free?
Click to expand...
--

Ulysses
Click to expand...
--
Lou

http://www.pbase.com/loug
Sony F717, MCON 35, TCON14B, WCON08B
Sunpak 383, Cokin / Hoya Filters, Epson Stylus 890
 
Lou -

I never asked before, but what exactly are you going to be taking a picture of?

Will it be the college grounds?
Will it be a particular building or monument?
Will it be a portrait of someone on the staff?
Will it be a shot of some scene in the local community?

Since there are no real licensing rights or so forth this time around, I'm sure the forum would be interested in knowing and following in detail how you go about this process from day to day.

The best alternative to making up a weblog about it is to keep us posted! :-)

Thanks

--

Ulysses
 
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