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Nikon snobbery is typical

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Anthony Agee said:
Honestly, 5 minutes with the 5700's menu system back-to-back with
the Sony's said all I needed to know: Sony knows how to make great
consumer products that are easy to learn to use.
Click to expand...
I borrowed a friends CP5000 for a weekend once. I'm computer & camera literate, but couldn't figure out how to do much of anything on that camera without the manual ... whereas I barely reference the manual for anything on the F717. This guy gets pretty good results from the 5000, and he bought it for the 28mm equiv. wide end. But what an awful camera to actually use !
  • Dennis
 
I've had Olympus, Nikon and Sony cameras. I had a lot of problems with Sony repair but the Nikon I hated with a passion. I donated the 995 to the local zoo...hopefully they're having fun with it.

d
Akkers said:
I am sorry, but I disagree with you.

Whilst Nikon and Cannon have a pedigree in optics, Sony has come
from integrated circuits and this shows in some of their poor
efforts so far (hell they cant get the focus right in 4 years). If
you want a snap-happy camera and a posing toy - go for a Sony. If
you after a real camera and glass you better look at Nikon and
Cannon. You only have to look at these forums to realise how many
people are moving to the Nikon/Cannon camps.

My bad experiences and frustrations with 505v and 717 mean that I
will never buy a Sony camera again. Thats the bottom line as far as
I am concerned.
Click to expand...
 
Akkers,

I suppose that if I had the troubled history w/ Sony that you have had, I might be more inclined to agree w/ you. Nobody likes to feel like they've invested a grand into a product that doesn't deliver what they expected. That being said, it sounds as though you're level of expectation won't fully be satisfied by ANY of todays digicams. If low light, fast AF, and shutter lag are really big issues for you, why not stick w/ an SLR and film until the days when these things are resolved in the digital world? For the price of a D100, you can get an N90s and a great lens or two, and spend ALL of your time on the creative stuff.

-Marc
Akkers said:
I just dont have the time to 'fight' a machine. I want to spend my
time on the creative side. I accept that every electro-mechanical
machine has problems and quirks which you have to learn to live
with and make the best. However, the 717 was driving me up the
wall. So the 717 has gone into a cupboard and the D100 has taken
its place. Mind you, its not all green grass on the other side
either. Using the D100 is much harder; you have to put a lot of
effort into getting the exposure etc right. But when you do get it
right....boy!!! The shutter speed and the DOF - you can only dream
about. For the price I would have paid for 256MB memory stick, I
bought 1Gb of compact flash.

As I said, I still have the 717 and I am no Nikon snob. I could not
give 2 hoots about what the name was on the machine as long it
performs.
Click to expand...
 
Akkers said:
Bad focusing in low light. Even the HAF has not really solved the
problem.
Click to expand...
Low light is a problem for digital cameras period. Not just for focusing, but also in terms of noise, dynamic range, etc. With that in mind, I'd like to see you point out a better performer in this area. And no, a dSLR at twice the price of an F717 (sans lenses) doesn't count.
Akkers said:
Terrible flash pics.
Click to expand...
Same as above. I don't think that the F7x7 performs any worse (or better for that matter) than its direct peers.
Akkers said:
Lack of flashgun choice. Here in the UK, its the Sony flash or the
Sony flash...
Click to expand...
I'm using an excellent Metz flash unit with my F717. Others have equally satisfying experiences with Promaster and Sunpak flashes. You can't blame the F717 for their lack of availability in the UK.
Akkers said:
Shutter lag problems. Even though I did not attempt many sport
shots with the 717, I still had problems taking family pics. By the
time you frame, and press the button and the camera has thought
about it, the photo moment has gone. Whilst the Sony apologists did
not accept that it was a problem with Sony cameras and were aready
to otracise anyone who spoke out, now it is a commonly accepted
fact that the shutter lag is a BIG BIG problem.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if any serious Sony owner would dispute that shutter lag is a problem. I have to refer to my first comment again though: name me a better performer in the same price class.
Akkers said:
In 2 years that I had the 505v and the 6 months I have had the 717,
I have yet to attain consisten landscape photos. Everytime I go out
on a shoot (under similar lighting/weather conditions), I get
different results. Hell, since when did trees go neon green.

Focusing is a problem even on landscape pics (maybe its just my
camera). It regularly tries to focus on 10-15 feet in front of the
camera instead of the distant secenery, even when focus is set to
landscape. Setting to infinity on manual is a workaround.
Click to expand...
You either had a dud or this is due to user error. Landscapes make up about 50% of what I shoot and I never experienced the results you describe here.
Akkers said:
Manual focus is non-existent (go on admit it - its a joke).
Click to expand...
I usually rely on autofocus, but have used manual focus on numerous occasions. It's not ideal, but it did allow me to get the shot I would normally have to pass on.
Akkers said:
Having said all that, I do miss some of the things on the 717 (now
that I have a D100 and the 717 is lying a cupboard). The swivel
body and the live EVF/LCD are sadly missed. I also miss the zoom
buttons. But these are insignificant things compared to being able
to take good pics.
Click to expand...
The F717 does take good pics when used correctly. It does not yield perfect results under every imaginable condition, but it doesn't get much better than this within the F717 budget.
Akkers said:
These are my personal opinions based on my experiences.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry you were not satisfied with your camera.

Roy.
 
Akkers said:
FYI I have been on STF since year 2000 when I bought the 505v. I
stuck with Sony and eventually went with the 717 hoping they would
get things right. They did not. I bought the 717 when it first came
out - it had bad focusing problems. Nobody here would accept that
nor would Sony. I had to send the camera back to the retailer at a
huge shipping cost to me to get a refund. A few weeks later, Sony
admitted that batches of 717 did indeed have focusing problem and
recalled them. My retailer did not refund my shipping costs even
after this news.

When things settled down, I bought the 717 again. I struggled to
get any kind of consistency from this camera for several weeks. The
shutter lag problems had not gone away. Whilst Sony fan club will
tell you one thing, I felt that in some cases, the shutter lag on
717 was slightly worse than 505v. I put down my problems to bad
weather and lack of light (we dont see much light in the UK until
about April/May). Anyway, come April and May, I did a lot of shoots
and I kept getting different results. My final conclusion was that
this camera performed brilliantly under perfect laboratory-like
conditions but anything else and I had no chance - it was like a
spoilt Spanish bull.

I just dont have the time to 'fight' a machine. I want to spend my
time on the creative side. I accept that every electro-mechanical
machine has problems and quirks which you have to learn to live
with and make the best. However, the 717 was driving me up the
wall. So the 717 has gone into a cupboard and the D100 has taken
its place. Mind you, its not all green grass on the other side
either. Using the D100 is much harder; you have to put a lot of
effort into getting the exposure etc right. But when you do get it
right....boy!!! The shutter speed and the DOF - you can only dream
about. For the price I would have paid for 256MB memory stick, I
bought 1Gb of compact flash.

As I said, I still have the 717 and I am no Nikon snob. I could not
give 2 hoots about what the name was on the machine as long it
performs. However, I know that I have to avoid the name Sony on
digital cameras. But on digital camcorders, Sony is the big boss -
nobody can touch them. All my camcorders have been Sony since 1993.
Click to expand...
You have every right to be mad at all these digital contraptions that cost a lot of money and then don't work right.

The problem is not just with Sony (but Sony has problems: like DLS which was not just an isolated problem but infected most cameras that went out the factory during a certain time period), but with other manufacturers. The Canon 10D has focusing problems, and I know that my Canon film scanner isn't working according to specifications either.

It makes me mad when you spend $700 for something ($1500 in the case of the 10D) and it doesn't work the way it's supposed.

I think the companies figure that 95% of the customers won't complain that it doesn't work properly and it's cheaper for them to fix the 5% that complain than it is to actually get the thing working correctly out the factory door the first time.
 
Mark J said:
I stopped reading your thread after this following statement of
yours regarding the way Sony manufactures it's line of cameras......

they're dumbed down for the folks at Best Buy

Do you realize how down you are talking to US Sony camera owners by
saying that? You are implying that the cameras are creating for
dumbies who need their hands held to make a camera purchase (or to
use one for that matter)
Click to expand...
I don't mind the comment ... the camera is tremendous; capable of great images. It has a few features & safeguards that are probably "dumbed down" that more serious photographers would prefer to control. And the manual is definitely geared towards a non-photographer consumer rather than someone who knows a good bit about photography.

Doesn't make the camera a bad choice for a serious photographer or dumb down the photographer !
  • Dennis
 
It doesn't care what the thread author calls it.

Best Buy doesn't care what the thread author of for that matter, what Sony calls it.

However.....

What I didn't think was nice was, implying that those who buy the F707 are of "dumb down" level of experience or intelligence

I'm not really all that bent out of shape over this...
there are more important things to worry about in life than this.
Just want to make sure the author of th thread understands it's
always best to use caution when you imply something negative of
people you do not know.

Mark J
ctyankee said:
Mark J said:
I stopped reading your thread after this following statement of
yours regarding the way Sony manufactures it's line of cameras......

they're dumbed down for the folks at Best Buy

Do you realize how down you are talking to US Sony camera owners by
saying that? You are implying that the cameras are creating for
dumbies who need their hands held to make a camera purchase (or to
use one for that matter)
Click to expand...
I don't mind the comment ... the camera is tremendous; capable of
great images. It has a few features & safeguards that are probably
"dumbed down" that more serious photographers would prefer to
control. And the manual is definitely geared towards a
non-photographer consumer rather than someone who knows a good bit
about photography.

Doesn't make the camera a bad choice for a serious photographer or
dumb down the photographer !
  • Dennis
Click to expand...
 
Does it really matter what name the camera has on the front or who made the lens?

Surely as long as it takes good pictures and the people who use it are happy with it, then people should stop worrying and just take some photos?

I don't understand why people get so protective over brands, and start playing the 'my camera's better than your camera game' (then pretend that they're not, and that they're having a 'serious discussion'). Do you really think Sony, Canon, Nikon or whoever CARE about you? (They might want to please you with their products so you spend your money, but please don't confuse that with caring.)

Now why don't you all go outside, and actually take some pictures?
 
Not really. I just finished reading a biography of Gallileo and I can report that he did not invent the lens, nor did he invent the telescope. What he did was refine the telescope, making it powerful enough to see things in the heavens that had previously been unseen.
Dazed and Confused said:
I think you're thinking of Galileo Galilei. He invented the lens.
Click to expand...
--
JohnK
 
What about Sony snobbery? First they came out with memory stick and announced that 256 MB and 512 MB would be available soon (even after F707 was in the market) and then suddenly they came out with incompatible memory stick pro. Many of us are angry at Sony who bought camera thinking they will be able to upgrade memory stick to higher capacity.

Also, look at how ridiculously priced their memory sticks are compared to Compact flash. Even SD/MMC cards are cheaper and xD cards are getting cheaper too. Worse, Sony only supports TIFF for uncompressed mode which means it is useless to most people since memory stick prices are so high.

Their 505/505v/707/717 all share nearly identical lens. The lens is swivel and is fully outside the main camera body. Couldn't they make this lens reusable? My feeling is that among all non SLR digital cameras, Sony 505/505v/707/717 series have the highest proportion of the cost in lens. Making it removable could have reduced great pain in upgrading (in other cameras, either optics were upgraded too or the optics were not too expensive compared to camera or the pixel count change wasn't there or the CCD size had changed).

Sony cameras are either bulky (717 etc) or they don't offer swivel LCD. The swivel lens on 717 is useless for one hand photography. Canon, Nikon, Olympus all of them offer swivel LCD.

Yes, Sony has technological advantage, but when it comes to defining a product, they are really poor. I guess, Canon is the best in this category. No new technology in G1/G2/G3/G5, but look how popular they were/are.

--dhiraj
Anthony Agee said:
As a former Nikon film SLR devotee, I can tell you that what you
experienced at that shop is pretty typical.

The simple fact is that in the year 2003, with photography heading
nowhere BUT digital, Sony has the technological edge over the
Nikons and the Canons. They can produce and manufacture superior
cameras for less money. Yes, they're dumbed down for the folks at
Best Buy. Yes, Nikons are aimed more at the "pro". But Nikon SIMPLY
cannot compete with Sony in anything less than the Digital SLR
field. Anybody who is picked up and used a Nikon 5700 and then
used a 717 knows what I am talking about. The 5700 has laughable
low-light performance and a shutter simply too slow for any
prosumer.

Yes it hurts to say this. Yes, I miss my days as a N70/N90 snob
with $800 lenses. Yes, I hate to be confused with Joe Schmoe and
his $200 Sony special taking shots of flowers on a cloudy day, but
the bottom line is, and Phil Askey even says so in his review, the
717 is superior to every other 5 mp camera on the market.

It won't be too many years before Nikon or Canon will be a
subsidiary of Sony....Sony will market their upscale cameras as
"Nikons". Just you wait. It is unfortunate, but inevetible.
Click to expand...
 
traded Nikon snobbery for Sony snobbery. Your inaccurate post is proof of that. I handled the Sony and never considered it after the nikon, so your statement at the bottom of paragraph 2 is wrong.

As for Phil's review, here is what he did say

"But, taking all this into account the DSC-F717 is still one of the best five megapixel prosumer digital cameras and certainly deserves a 'Highly Recommended' rating. Sony have done enough with this 'product refresh', they have not only added new software features and new hardware features but have also improved image quality and that makes the DSC-F717 one of the most attractive proposals for the price."

Show me where he stated the
Anthony Agee said:
717 is superior to every other 5 mp camera on the market.
Click to expand...
as you implied below. As for low light, perhaps it was not the camera that had issues when you used it. Or did you in fact ever use one? Just go to the NTF for examples or lessons on low light photography.

In any event, enjoy whatever camera you have.

Harris

Its a camera, and the person behind the eyepiece with his finger on the shutter takes and makes the photo. Get real for a change, and give up on all this snobbery. Either camera will do the job.
Anthony Agee said:
As a former Nikon film SLR devotee, I can tell you that what you
experienced at that shop is pretty typical.

The simple fact is that in the year 2003, with photography heading
nowhere BUT digital, Sony has the technological edge over the
Nikons and the Canons. They can produce and manufacture superior
cameras for less money. Yes, they're dumbed down for the folks at
Best Buy. Yes, Nikons are aimed more at the "pro". But Nikon SIMPLY
cannot compete with Sony in anything less than the Digital SLR
field. Anybody who is picked up and used a Nikon 5700 and then
used a 717 knows what I am talking about. The 5700 has laughable
low-light performance and a shutter simply too slow for any
prosumer.

Yes it hurts to say this. Yes, I miss my days as a N70/N90 snob
with $800 lenses. Yes, I hate to be confused with Joe Schmoe and
his $200 Sony special taking shots of flowers on a cloudy day, but
the bottom line is, and Phil Askey even says so in his review, the
717 is superior to every other 5 mp camera on the market.

It won't be too many years before Nikon or Canon will be a
subsidiary of Sony....Sony will market their upscale cameras as
"Nikons". Just you wait. It is unfortunate, but inevetible.
Click to expand...
--
Harris
Cp5700, N6006
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor
 
Thanks for your comments. Actually gear costs more here in the UK. I paid the equivalnet of around $1000 for the 717.

Funnily enough, I also bought a Cannon film scanner some years ago. It was supposed to be top of the range and I paid good money for it (400GBP). However, it did not work right; Cannon software was awful. After talking to Cannon support, they acknowledged that there was some problems with the software and that they would send me another version as soon as it was released. Some years went by and nothing came and the scanner gathered dust and I lost interest. Cannon just chose to ignore all my emails. I gave up in the end.
 
Akkers said:
Thanks for your comments. Actually gear costs more here in the UK.
I paid the equivalnet of around $1000 for the 717.

Funnily enough, I also bought a Cannon film scanner some years ago.
It was supposed to be top of the range and I paid good money for it
(400GBP). However, it did not work right; Cannon software was
awful. After talking to Cannon support, they acknowledged that
there was some problems with the software and that they would send
me another version as soon as it was released. Some years went by
and nothing came and the scanner gathered dust and I lost interest.
Cannon just chose to ignore all my emails. I gave up in the end.
Click to expand...
The "FARE" doesn't work right on my scanner on the Strong setting. It creates artifacts and black spots. I did Email Canon, and they said essentially "sorry, but FARE just doesn't work on the Strong setting in certain situations" (although I have yet to find a situation where it actually DOES work).

This is kind of annoying because FARE was one of the features that enticed me to buy the scanner.

Regarding prices in the UK: with the recent drop in the value of the US Dollar, things are probably reversed now.
 
Dazed and Confused said:
Do you really think Sony, Canon, Nikon or whoever
CARE about you? (They might want to please you with their products
so you spend your money, but please don't confuse that with caring.)

Now why don't you all go outside, and actually take some pictures?
Click to expand...
Any company that doesn't care about its customers isn't going to stay in business long.

It's people like us who pick these things apart who do everyone else a big favor by forcing the companies to make sure they manufacture good products.
 
I do know for a fact that xcutter returned his sony for a nikon 5700. So you are not 100% correct.
lisafx said:
Akkers said:
I am sorry, but I disagree with you.

Whilst Nikon and Cannon have a pedigree in optics, Sony has come
from integrated circuits and this shows in some of their poor
efforts so far (hell they cant get the focus right in 4 years). If
you want a snap-happy camera and a posing toy - go for a Sony. If
you after a real camera and glass you better look at Nikon and
Cannon. You only have to look at these forums to realise how many
people are moving to the Nikon/Cannon camps.
Click to expand...
Akkers, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I remember
the problems you had with the 717. Still, it is ridiculous to
insult all Sony cameras because you had a bad experience. The only
Sony users I am aware of who have gone to Nikon or Canon from this
forum have done so because they are upgrading to a DSLR. Since
Sony doesn't make a DSLR, it would obviously follow that they would
have to get a different brand. Most of them seem to still maintain
that the 717 is the best camera in its class. If you want to see
what kind of "snapshot" people take with this "posing toy" I invite
you to check out the Challenge galleries:
http://www.pbase.com/stfchallenge

Lisa

--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
Click to expand...
--
Harris
Cp5700, N6006
Pbase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor
 
I think my previous post wasn't too clear. I totally agree that 'It's people like us who pick these things apart who do everyone else a big favor by forcing the companies to make sure they manufacture good products'.

What I'm saying is people get very attached to 'their' camera company. They become very protective over it, and almost start denying that there could be any problems at all! Like you say, we should complain, to make them improve. No camera is perfect, so find the problem and point it out.

But also, don't go to the other extreme and spend so much time complaining about tiny niggles (often on these forums it seems in a 'rival' brands camera), that you don't actually end up with any photographs.

I just think that you mustn't be loyal or caring towards a brand, as they're certainly not loyal or caring towards you. If they could replace one of you with two different purchasers, do you really think that they wouldn't jump at the chance?

Which of these scenarios do you honestly see taking place in a camera companies' board meeting?

1: "Look at all the complaints that our new XYZ123 is getting on the dpreview forum! We've really upset some people. I hope we haven't hurt their feelings. Quick, we'd better sort the problems before we make anyone else sad!"

2. "We haven't shifted enough units of XYZ123 since launch! It's getting terrible reviews on the dpreview forum, and that's putting potential buyers off! Quick, we'd better sort the problems before that other camera company takes our market share!"

I hope this clears up my stance.
 
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