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a7r w 17 mm Canon t/s

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Shirozina said:
ViRuS X said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
Click to expand...
Rubbish. This only applies to non retro focus wide angle lenses like the M range. Nothing to do with focal length and everything to do with the absolute position of the exit pupil to the sensor.

Back on topic - main issue with the 17mm on the A7r is the convex field of focus where the edges of the frame focus further away than the centre and the softening in the central area if you stop down past F8 which is not enough DOF at infinity to optimally sharpen the image across the frame. The 24mm TS-E 2 does not suffer like this. Physicaly these lenses are heavy and the A7r mount is over stressed if you don't let the adaptor foot take the load.
Click to expand...
How do you know it is over stressed? Even if it is, another solution, probably better, is to use one of those Y-lens supports. I have the RRS version (though modified) that I always use when my 70-200FE is on my tripod. But is heavy.

I wish I knew how you could be so sure as to it being "over stressed." I should probably test the rig your way, also FM's way, to be absolutely sure about the extent of the shutter shock with it. Do you have any documentation or evidence of over stressing that you can share?
 
Jerry Fusselman said:
Shirozina said:
ViRuS X said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
Click to expand...
Rubbish. This only applies to non retro focus wide angle lenses like the M range. Nothing to do with focal length and everything to do with the absolute position of the exit pupil to the sensor.

Back on topic - main issue with the 17mm on the A7r is the convex field of focus where the edges of the frame focus further away than the centre and the softening in the central area if you stop down past F8 which is not enough DOF at infinity to optimally sharpen the image across the frame. The 24mm TS-E 2 does not suffer like this. Physicaly these lenses are heavy and the A7r mount is over stressed if you don't let the adaptor foot take the load.
Click to expand...
How do you know it is over stressed? Even if it is, another solution, probably better, is to use one of those Y-lens supports. I have the RRS version (though modified) that I always use when my 70-200FE is on my tripod. But is heavy.

I wish I knew how you could be so sure as to it being "over stressed." I should probably test the rig your way, also FM's way, to be absolutely sure about the extent of the shutter shock with it. Do you have any documentation or evidence of over stressing that you can share?

--
Jerry Fusselman
Click to expand...
Jerry, I followed your advice from this morning and removed the MBIII adapter foot, and mounted my L-bracket on the A7R body, and tested with the 17mm TS-E. Seemed fine, and certainly this is much better way for shooting in portrait orientation. I think the direct mounting of camera to body may also help dampen any shutter vibrations (if they are an issue on such a wide angle lens anyway which I doubt). So I prefer to continue this way, but at the same time, it would be nice to somehow know one way or the other if this load is "stressing the mount". This information is not readily available anywhere, so we must rely on users such as yourself that report back to the community on whether there are issues or not, and your feedback so far is positive. That being said, my gut feel tells me this load (800g+) extended out from mount by an extra 20mm+ versus the Canon mounts, may be pushing the limit. I suspect as long as you are careful as you probably are, then it's probably fine. But I think there is the potential for mount damage if one is a little rough or careless with this set up.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisd666
http://500px.com/Chrisd999
 
Last edited:
Hundminen said:
Jerry Fusselman said:
Shirozina said:
ViRuS X said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
Click to expand...
Rubbish. This only applies to non retro focus wide angle lenses like the M range. Nothing to do with focal length and everything to do with the absolute position of the exit pupil to the sensor.

Back on topic - main issue with the 17mm on the A7r is the convex field of focus where the edges of the frame focus further away than the centre and the softening in the central area if you stop down past F8 which is not enough DOF at infinity to optimally sharpen the image across the frame. The 24mm TS-E 2 does not suffer like this. Physicaly these lenses are heavy and the A7r mount is over stressed if you don't let the adaptor foot take the load.
Click to expand...
How do you know it is over stressed? Even if it is, another solution, probably better, is to use one of those Y-lens supports. I have the RRS version (though modified) that I always use when my 70-200FE is on my tripod. But is heavy.

I wish I knew how you could be so sure as to it being "over stressed." I should probably test the rig your way, also FM's way, to be absolutely sure about the extent of the shutter shock with it. Do you have any documentation or evidence of over stressing that you can share?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
ViRuS X said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
The best wide angle lens tested on A7R is Leica Tri-Elmar 16-18-21mm, which is very expensive.
24mm should be a good focal length, it would be safer to get the 24mm IMO
Click to expand...
Thats totally incorrect.
The 17mm ts-e is sharp corner to corner on the a7r.
 
philip pj said:
"Sony gets its swagger back with the new full frame A7R. They own bragging rights to resolution resulting in crisp prints, and dynamic range that tucks away hidden shadow detail for clean recovery. Bottom line, this camera belongs in the hands of a landscape photographer. And the best part, is that Sony tied it all together in a light, mirrorless, weather-sealed body that almost any lenses can hook up with."


Fred is quite fair and features the fine Canon 24mm TS lens, he also has more elsewhere on his site, I believe.

More on this idea using the magic sensor, for info:

Loading…

www.getdpi.com

Loading…

www.getdpi.com
Click to expand...
Suggesting the A7r is weather sealed is comical.
It's not. Not even close. Neither battery, card, or either port door has any sort of gasket what so ever. And the lens mount has zero sealing.
Nadda. Zip. Nothin'.
 
ViRuS X said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
The best wide angle lens tested on A7R is Leica Tri-Elmar 16-18-21mm, which is very expensive.
24mm should be a good focal length, it would be safer to get the 24mm IMO
Click to expand...
Sort corners on range fimder lenses maybe.
Not on SLR/dslr lensrs.

And not on the 17 TSE.

Its pretty sharp in the corners even wide open.
 
NomadMark said:
NomadMark said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
The best wide angle lens tested on A7R is Leica Tri-Elmar 16-18-21mm, which is very expensive.
24mm should be a good focal length, it would be safer to get the 24mm IMO
Click to expand...
Sort corners on range fimder lenses maybe.
Not on SLR/dslr lensrs.

And not on the 17 TSE.

Its pretty sharp in the corners even wide open.
Click to expand...
I think what ViRuS X was trying to say is that ultrawides with adapters, even for DSLR's, can have problems with the corners. The only possible problem with Canon's TS-E 17mm might be corner smearing, but it is difficult for me to see any evidence of that.

I will admit that there is some softness at maximum shift in the corners for all of Canon's wide-angle TS-E lenses when reaching the edge of the image circle, but I only notice it when I look for it. It's not that big of a deal. The best there is is generally good enough for me.

That said, I am more in agreement with NomadMark than ViRuS X in this case. If Canon's 17mm TS-E on the Sony A7r is not good enough for you ... oh my! It sounds like perfectionism without a cause or cure to me.

--
Jerry Fusselman
 
Last edited:
Jerry Fusselman said:
Shirozina said:
ViRuS X said:
bwana said:
Anyone using this combo? or how about the 24 mm canon t/s? does it work or are there focussing issues or other speed bumps to be aware of?
Click to expand...
I didn't use this combo.. But keep in mind that if you use a super wide angle lens on A7/R you will get soft corners and vignetting.
Click to expand...
Rubbish. This only applies to non retro focus wide angle lenses like the M range. Nothing to do with focal length and everything to do with the absolute position of the exit pupil to the sensor.

Back on topic - main issue with the 17mm on the A7r is the convex field of focus where the edges of the frame focus further away than the centre and the softening in the central area if you stop down past F8 which is not enough DOF at infinity to optimally sharpen the image across the frame. The 24mm TS-E 2 does not suffer like this. Physicaly these lenses are heavy and the A7r mount is over stressed if you don't let the adaptor foot take the load.
Click to expand...
How do you know it is over stressed? Even if it is, another solution, probably better, is to use one of those Y-lens supports. I have the RRS version (though modified) that I always use when my 70-200FE is on my tripod. But is heavy.

I wish I knew how you could be so sure as to it being "over stressed." I should probably test the rig your way, also FM's way, to be absolutely sure about the extent of the shutter shock with it. Do you have any documentation or evidence of over stressing that you can share?
Click to expand...
 
I was talking about wide angle rangefinder lenses, my mistake I should have said that.
Funny thing is that you agreed with me that this lens would produce soft corners and the 24mm is a better choice than the 17mm.
 
ViRuS X said:
I was talking about wide angle rangefinder lenses, my mistake I should have said that.
Funny thing is that you agreed with me that this lens would produce soft corners and the 24mm is a better choice than the 17mm.
Click to expand...
My experience:

Unshifted, 24 > 17 in corners

Fully Shifted, 17> 24 in corners

but it's splitting hairs, both are great
 
ViRuS X said:
I was talking about wide angle rangefinder lenses, my mistake I should have said that.
Funny thing is that you agreed with me that this lens would produce soft corners and the 24mm is a better choice than the 17mm.
Click to expand...
I agreed with you but not for the reasons you stated. The 24mm is not a better choice when you need the wider FOV of the 17mm to frame the shot and can't move further back. In cases where you can move back then yes use the 24mm as it's optically superior for critical work. The differences between 17 and 24 are exaggerated on the A7r vs native Canon sensors due to the significant resolution differences - pixels and AA filter. The 24mm is optically as close to perfection any lens can be. The 17mm is just short of perfection.
 
Shirozina said:
ViRuS X said:
I was talking about wide angle rangefinder lenses, my mistake I should have said that.
Funny thing is that you agreed with me that this lens would produce soft corners and the 24mm is a better choice than the 17mm.
Click to expand...
I agreed with you but not for the reasons you stated. The 24mm is not a better choice when you need the wider FOV of the 17mm to frame the shot and can't move further back. In cases where you can move back then yes use the 24mm as it's optically superior for critical work. The differences between 17 and 24 are exaggerated on the A7r vs native Canon sensors due to the significant resolution differences - pixels and AA filter. The 24mm is optically as close to perfection any lens can be. The 17mm is just short of perfection.
Click to expand...
Sure the 17mm would be a better choice for someone who needs the wider view, but the guy who posted the question didn't mention what he wanted to shoot so I gave my opinion.

personally I'm looking for a 17mm-21mm focal length for the A7R.
The best review I found for leica wide angle lenses on Sony A7r was this :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fast-21mm-lenses-for-your-a7-and-a7r/

That tri elmar 16-18-21 is expensive for my needs , Photography is just a hobby I'm not a pro.

Then after searching I found this on SAR :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fast-21mm-lenses-for-your-a7-and-a7r/

So I'm still looking for a lens, the closest one would be Konica hexanon 21mm, compared to leica lenses it's cheap and worth it.

If you know a good rangefinder wide angle lens that is optically good for the A7R please let me know , I'm almost going to buy the konica.
 
ViRuS X said:
Shirozina said:
ViRuS X said:
I was talking about wide angle rangefinder lenses, my mistake I should have said that.
Funny thing is that you agreed with me that this lens would produce soft corners and the 24mm is a better choice than the 17mm.
Click to expand...
I agreed with you but not for the reasons you stated. The 24mm is not a better choice when you need the wider FOV of the 17mm to frame the shot and can't move further back. In cases where you can move back then yes use the 24mm as it's optically superior for critical work. The differences between 17 and 24 are exaggerated on the A7r vs native Canon sensors due to the significant resolution differences - pixels and AA filter. The 24mm is optically as close to perfection any lens can be. The 17mm is just short of perfection.
Click to expand...
Sure the 17mm would be a better choice for someone who needs the wider view, but the guy who posted the question didn't mention what he wanted to shoot so I gave my opinion.

personally I'm looking for a 17mm-21mm focal length for the A7R.
The best review I found for leica wide angle lenses on Sony A7r was this :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fast-21mm-lenses-for-your-a7-and-a7r/

That tri elmar 16-18-21 is expensive for my needs , Photography is just a hobby I'm not a pro.

Then after searching I found this on SAR :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fast-21mm-lenses-for-your-a7-and-a7r/

So I'm still looking for a lens, the closest one would be Konica hexanon 21mm, compared to leica lenses it's cheap and worth it.

If you know a good rangefinder wide angle lens that is optically good for the A7R please let me know , I'm almost going to buy the konica.
Click to expand...
From what I've researched any non retro focus wide lens ( all lenses for non SLR rangefinder cameras) below 35mm will run into problems at the edges of the frame on an A7r due to the closeness of the exit pupil to the sensor and the consequent shallow angle of incidence of the projected image on the sensor at the frame edges.
 
Thanks, Shirozina, for your complete answer to my question. You bring up three issues that deserve very careful consideration, especially given what I have advised for mounting the wide-angle TS-E lenses on an A7r. I hope I have faithfully done this below. I would appreciate your critique of my investigation. Maybe I missed something, erred, etc.

I admit that I would probably do it your way if I was shooting with an A7 or A7s with electronic shutter. But let's look at your specifics:
Shirozina wrote : [QUOTE="Jerry Fusselman said:
Shirozina said:
Shirozina, post: 53856704, member: 1130303"]
Back on topic - main issue with the 17mm on the A7r is the convex field of focus where the edges of the frame focus further away than the centre and the softening in the central area if you stop down past F8 which is not enough DOF at infinity to optimally sharpen the image across the frame. The 24mm TS-E 2 does not suffer like this. Physicaly these lenses are heavy and the A7r mount is over stressed if you don't let the adaptor foot take the load.
Click to expand...
How do you know it is over stressed? Even if it is, another solution, probably better, is to use one of those Y-lens supports. I have the RRS version (though modified) that I always use when my 70-200FE is on my tripod. But is heavy.

I wish I knew how you could be so sure as to it being "over stressed." I should probably test the rig your way, also FM's way, to be absolutely sure about the extent of the shutter shock with it. Do you have any documentation or evidence of over stressing that you can share?
Click to expand...
 
ViRuS X said:
personally I'm looking for a 17mm-21mm focal length for the A7R.
The best review I found for leica wide angle lenses on Sony A7r was this :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fast-21mm-lenses-for-your-a7-and-a7r/

That tri elmar 16-18-21 is expensive for my needs , Photography is just a hobby I'm not a pro.

Then after searching I found this on SAR :

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/fast-21mm-lenses-for-your-a7-and-a7r/

So I'm still looking for a lens, the closest one would be Konica hexanon 21mm, compared to leica lenses it's cheap and worth it.

If you know a good rangefinder wide angle lens that is optically good for the A7R please let me know , I'm almost going to buy the konica.
Click to expand...
Both links are the same. Perhaps one of the links is wrong---if so, would you please update it for us?
 
ViRuS X said:
Ops Sorry, the link for M-mount lenses on Sony A7 is this one

http://3d-kraft.com/index.php?optio...n-sony-a7r&catid=40:camerasandlenses&Itemid=2

Leica WATE is the best wide angle for Sony A7 , but still not that great for the price, about $5500 if I'm not mistaken.

I took my decision to wait for the Sony FE 16-35mm f/4 , should be released soon.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much! This is an excellent reference, and I think it refutes some statements by others in this thread. The Voigtlander Ultron 21mm f/1.8 ASPH is what caught my eye.

--
Jerry Fusselman
 
Last edited:
Jerry Fusselman said:
Thanks, Shirozina, for your complete answer to my question. You bring up three issues that deserve very careful consideration, especially given what I have advised for mounting the wide-angle TS-E lenses on an A7r. I hope I have faithfully done this below. I would appreciate your critique of my investigation. Maybe I missed something, erred, etc.

I admit that I would probably do it your way if I was shooting with an A7 or A7s with electronic shutter. But let's look at your specifics:
Shirozina wrote : [QUOTE="Jerry Fusselman said:
Jerry Fusselman said:
Shirozina, post: 53858932, member: 101465"]
Back on topic - main issue with the 17mm on the A7r is the convex field of focus where the edges of the frame focus further away than the centre and the softening in the central area if you stop down past F8 which is not enough DOF at infinity to optimally sharpen the image across the frame. The 24mm TS-E 2 does not suffer like this. Physicaly these lenses are heavy and the A7r mount is over stressed if you don't let the adaptor foot take the load.
Click to expand...
How do you know it is over stressed? Even if it is, another solution, probably better, is to use one of those Y-lens supports. I have the RRS version (though modified) that I always use when my 70-200FE is on my tripod. But is heavy.

I wish I knew how you could be so sure as to it being "over stressed." I should probably test the rig your way, also FM's way, to be absolutely sure about the extent of the shutter shock with it. Do you have any documentation or evidence of over stressing that you can share?

--
Jerry Fusselman
Click to expand...
It's over stressed because there is visible movement between the adapter and body when you mount a big lens.
Click to expand...
How big of a lens have you used to see this effect?
Jerry Fusselman said:
There is a gap that opens up at the top with even the slightest downwards pressure .
Click to expand...
I used very strong light, almost blindingly strong, but I could not see this gap when using a Metabones III connected to a TS-E 17mm with its heavy lens hood attached. There simply is no gap that I can create with downwards pressure on the cap. My wife, with much younger eyes, also looked and tried the same experiment---no gap. Are you thinking of heavier lenses perhaps?
Jerry Fusselman said:
The springs that hold the lens flange on are plastic and not designed to support the weight and leverage loads of a big 3rd party lens and adapter.
Click to expand...
I cannot verify this at all. It looks to me like there could be rigid metal-against-metal holding everything together.
Jerry Fusselman said:
Empirical examination of this combo should be enough for anyone to not use it any other way but with the load going through the adapter foot.
Click to expand...
Well, we did the empirical examination you described, and we see no problem.
Jerry Fusselman said:
The Metabones flange is very strong just like a native canon body mount.
Click to expand...
True, though I cannot tell if maybe the Sony flange is even stronger. Perhaps you have some insight into this aspect.
Jerry Fusselman said:
No evidence I've seen of any shutter shock even with long lenses as long as you use a strong and rigid tripod system. I think the hysteria around shutter shock is just that with many folk simply experiencing simple camera shake from poor support technique.
Click to expand...
This is where I believe you are simply mistaken. Maybe you have not seen the best evidence. I believe that no one has been more thorough than these investigators:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-shutter-vibration-issue-explained-by-joseph-holmes/

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4713

These links are starting points for more information. This is not "hysteria." They did not use "poor support technique."

Have I covered all of your concerns, or did I miss something?

--
Jerry Fusselman
[/QUOTE]
I don't have any concerns.
 
I talked to Andrew N at Sony about this issue, and here is a transcript so that you can judge for yourself whether or not my suggestion for mounting the camera directly is safe. Andrew was very polite and helpful, but I have edited much of that out for brevity. I have also fixed some of my spelling and grammar errors. The short answer is that he says it is safe.

Here is the transcript:

Jerry: I have a question about the Alpha 7R camera. Is the Canon 17mm TS-E with a Metabones III adapter OK, or is it too heavy?

Jerry: Please understand that I am mounting the camera to the tripod.

Jerry: I am not mounting the Metabones adapter to the tripod.

Andrew N: As I have checked, it will be alright Jerry.

Jerry: May I quote you on DPReview.com?

Jerry: Remember, I want to avoid damaging the A7r lens mount.

Jerry: We're having quite an argument online about it.

Andrew N: I see. I understand.

Andrew N: Let me verify this further Jerry.

[...]

Andrew N: As I have checked Jerry, this would not damage your lens mount as it is still well capable of handling over 2 pound of weight and would give you no problem.

Jerry: Where is the limit in pounds? Perhaps 5 is too much?

Andrew N: It can support up to 2.5 pounds Jerry. 5 would definitely be sending it to a repair center.:)
 
I having a bit of an online conversation about mounting the 17mm-rig at the camera with Jim Kasson at http://blog.kasson.com/?p=3895#comment-162327, but the conversation might not yet be complete.

The other issue is whether or not you think a test is useful: Should I compare mounting the 17mm TS-E in different ways and see if I can find evidence of shutter shock when I mount it Fred Miranda's way?

I was thinking of trying it three ways:
  1. My way, with the camera supporting the weight of the lens and directly over the tripod head.
  2. Fred Miranda's way, with the Metabones adapter supporting the weight.
  3. The camera is directly over the tripod head, but the far end of the lens is supported by the RRS Y-lens support.
I should try it both in portrait and landscape modes. Anyone interested in hearing the results of such a test? Or perhaps some other test is better?

--

Jerry Fusselman
 
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