photofan1986
Senior Member
Well, it certainly is when used without the grip. And it's not impossible that there is some sample variation as well.
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OMD EM5 Shutter shock
- Thread starter Dr. Noodle
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- olympus om-d e-m5
Dr. Noodle
Senior Member
Let us stop characterizations for disabilities... Paul... come on - you know we share the same thoughts but lets protect this thread.... do not let them to block it... I apologize for this kind of words... I want the thread alive on purpose... just give me the time until weekend to make all the tests step by step... NOW I am reading...
--
www.spiridakis.gr
--
www.spiridakis.gr
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Paulmorgan
Veteran Member
OK, I`m with you.
Your indifferent and apparently light-hearted liberal use of the term 'disability' might be cause enough for considering a change of career?4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.Since the door to 'disability' has been opened here, let me chip in.OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.One of the worst shutter shock I can get with my E-M5.
OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.
Both are shot at 1/320, so in some cases shutter shock can be a problem even with much faster shutter speeds.
Both were shot with IS off, 2 sec timer, but first is without anti-shock, the second is with anti-shock 1/8s.
Those are 100% center crops.
Hand held, results are better, but there is still some slight blur, reducing resolution drastically.
The problem with shutter shock is that sometimes, as here, it's obvious, but most of the time, it's more subtle, and less regarding people don't notice it. They just don't realize that their pics could be much sharper with the same lens.
That's one extreme example. My other lenses don't show it in this proportion. Since I purchased the grip, I get almost no shutter shock with the 45 1.8, as well as other lenses. The 40-150 is the most stubborn, and if I want to get tack sharp pictures, I have to use anti-shock.
This is about the only time I might expect to see SS, with a cameras mounted to a tripod and using longer lenses, and this is the whole idea behind setting the delay.
Hand held SS should not be a problem for most of us, anti shock delay helps those disabled enough who have problems but your talking total nonsense by claiming we all get it, but don`t notice.
1. Do we feel the mechanical shock caused by the shutter through our hands/fingers? I do and everyone I have asked to try my camera does. My assumption is that anyone not able to feel that has some 'disability' in the motion sensors in their hands. I have observed ripples on the surface of a glass of water caused by shutter action of a camera put close on the same table.
2. The above demonstrate that there is a mechanical shock caused by the shutter, so the question moves to whether it has an effect or not. Now the evidence is that it does have an effect with shots on tripod.
3. The photographer tries to hold the camera steadily, basically with the tripod as the asymptotic ideal model to approach. A completely steady pair of hands that mimics the tripod perfectly will also get blurred photos.
4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
I work with people suffering from Parkinsons, you really have no idea have you.
--
Paulmorgan
Veteran Member
I just removed the grip and grabbed this, again at 1/160, still no SS, for me at least there is no difference, leaning out the window so again one handed.
Digital Dick
Senior Member
Like many others I have looked long and hard for any examples of shutter shock in my E-M5 images and never found it. Most of my images were shot using the JB grip and a release plate on the camera but I also did a lot of testing with just the bare camera looking for SS but have never seen it.
My lens include the 14-150, 75-300, 12-50, and old OM lens such as the 50mm f1.8, 90mm f2 macro and the 350mm f2.8.
So far, I'm not much of a SS believer.
****
My lens include the 14-150, 75-300, 12-50, and old OM lens such as the 50mm f1.8, 90mm f2 macro and the 350mm f2.8.
So far, I'm not much of a SS believer.
****
Paulmorgan
Veteran Member
You have problems, your last comment was sick enough, I guess it was your idea of some joke.Your indifferent and apparently light-hearted liberal use of the term 'disability' might be cause enough for considering a change of career?4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.Since the door to 'disability' has been opened here, let me chip in.OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.One of the worst shutter shock I can get with my E-M5.
OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.
Both are shot at 1/320, so in some cases shutter shock can be a problem even with much faster shutter speeds.
Both were shot with IS off, 2 sec timer, but first is without anti-shock, the second is with anti-shock 1/8s.
Those are 100% center crops.
Hand held, results are better, but there is still some slight blur, reducing resolution drastically.
The problem with shutter shock is that sometimes, as here, it's obvious, but most of the time, it's more subtle, and less regarding people don't notice it. They just don't realize that their pics could be much sharper with the same lens.
That's one extreme example. My other lenses don't show it in this proportion. Since I purchased the grip, I get almost no shutter shock with the 45 1.8, as well as other lenses. The 40-150 is the most stubborn, and if I want to get tack sharp pictures, I have to use anti-shock.
This is about the only time I might expect to see SS, with a cameras mounted to a tripod and using longer lenses, and this is the whole idea behind setting the delay.
Hand held SS should not be a problem for most of us, anti shock delay helps those disabled enough who have problems but your talking total nonsense by claiming we all get it, but don`t notice.
1. Do we feel the mechanical shock caused by the shutter through our hands/fingers? I do and everyone I have asked to try my camera does. My assumption is that anyone not able to feel that has some 'disability' in the motion sensors in their hands. I have observed ripples on the surface of a glass of water caused by shutter action of a camera put close on the same table.
2. The above demonstrate that there is a mechanical shock caused by the shutter, so the question moves to whether it has an effect or not. Now the evidence is that it does have an effect with shots on tripod.
3. The photographer tries to hold the camera steadily, basically with the tripod as the asymptotic ideal model to approach. A completely steady pair of hands that mimics the tripod perfectly will also get blurred photos.
4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
I work with people suffering from Parkinsons, you really have no idea have you.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
I was simply stating that modern technology is helping those less fortunate than us, IBIS is helping those with essential tremor, live view helps with some forms of blindness etc etc.
All my pictures with the 40-150 from 1/500 ss and slower suffers from something...
I think its worse around 1/320. I sold the lens as I thought there was something wrong with the lens. It was only when I noticed similar things with my 75mm that I learned about shutter shock. I have a hard time believing its just bad technique.
Blurry, look closer at the toes
Blurry, look closer at the horn on the far right
Fast shutter speed...
Edit: sorry, wrong size images
I think its worse around 1/320. I sold the lens as I thought there was something wrong with the lens. It was only when I noticed similar things with my 75mm that I learned about shutter shock. I have a hard time believing its just bad technique.
Blurry, look closer at the toes
Blurry, look closer at the horn on the far right
Fast shutter speed...
Edit: sorry, wrong size images
Attachments
Last edited:
It reflects what happens in today's environment of encouraging extra care with certain terminology. I attended a lecture recently where someone who 'works with the disadvantaged' on why one should not nonchalantly use the word 'disability' esp. without an iota of medical evidence. So I was curious why you and your friends use this word so freely in the context of shutter shock, and used it back at you to see what reaction I might get. The reaction was not, well, surprising.You have problems, your last comment was sick enough, I guess it was your idea of some joke.Your indifferent and apparently light-hearted liberal use of the term 'disability' might be cause enough for considering a change of career?4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.Since the door to 'disability' has been opened here, let me chip in.OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.One of the worst shutter shock I can get with my E-M5.
OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.
Both are shot at 1/320, so in some cases shutter shock can be a problem even with much faster shutter speeds.
Both were shot with IS off, 2 sec timer, but first is without anti-shock, the second is with anti-shock 1/8s.
Those are 100% center crops.
Hand held, results are better, but there is still some slight blur, reducing resolution drastically.
The problem with shutter shock is that sometimes, as here, it's obvious, but most of the time, it's more subtle, and less regarding people don't notice it. They just don't realize that their pics could be much sharper with the same lens.
That's one extreme example. My other lenses don't show it in this proportion. Since I purchased the grip, I get almost no shutter shock with the 45 1.8, as well as other lenses. The 40-150 is the most stubborn, and if I want to get tack sharp pictures, I have to use anti-shock.
This is about the only time I might expect to see SS, with a cameras mounted to a tripod and using longer lenses, and this is the whole idea behind setting the delay.
Hand held SS should not be a problem for most of us, anti shock delay helps those disabled enough who have problems but your talking total nonsense by claiming we all get it, but don`t notice.
1. Do we feel the mechanical shock caused by the shutter through our hands/fingers? I do and everyone I have asked to try my camera does. My assumption is that anyone not able to feel that has some 'disability' in the motion sensors in their hands. I have observed ripples on the surface of a glass of water caused by shutter action of a camera put close on the same table.
2. The above demonstrate that there is a mechanical shock caused by the shutter, so the question moves to whether it has an effect or not. Now the evidence is that it does have an effect with shots on tripod.
3. The photographer tries to hold the camera steadily, basically with the tripod as the asymptotic ideal model to approach. A completely steady pair of hands that mimics the tripod perfectly will also get blurred photos.
4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
I work with people suffering from Parkinsons, you really have no idea have you.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
My contention is that these modern technologies are not helping people with problems, less fortunate or different from others. They in most cases are helping the majority of normal people.
Some of these have become a necessity simply because of the way photographs are mostly displayed these days. A large number of pixels encourage pixel peeping and selective viewing of small parts of images has become the norm, and running to the drugstore to print out 6x4 paper pictures which are never scrutinized at shorter than arm's length has become abnormal. Hence problems that got masked with the latter approach before are very evident in today's environment. Any incompetence in IS, shutter shock removal, high ISO performance, AF inaccuracy, etc. are very quickly found out and negatively commented upon, affecting the commercial interests of the makers. No amount of positive experience testimonials would offset such bad publicity and manufacturers have, rightfully, been responsive.
--
Anders W
Forum Pro
Do you think you can perform a better test than the one by CrisPhoto that he already linked you to:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3651827
If not, why bother?
Paulmorgan
Veteran Member
That sure is an in depth test, but it still does not answer the question of why some people get it and others don`t.
Obviously an oscilloscope will show the movement of the shutter, but it does not necessarily mean our pictures will be blurred.
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Paul,
your last sentence is wrong:
The oscilloscope shows a straight line, all inputs are empty. It is the camera that "shows" the curve, this is shutter shock. And necessarily, this will always exactly show as a blurry picture.
Look at the crops of the LED in the intro of my posting. You see how the blurred line corresponds with the blurred LED, these crops are from the same photos.
I think all of us get it, but sometimes it is subtle, it depends.
But my tests have shown that the shutter shock is there, much more than I would have thought before (before, I thought my 75/1.8 and 50-200 are immune...)
Anders W
Forum Pro
As exemplified below, there's never any guarantee that everyone will understand the objective facts correctly.
You misunderstood the test completely. See Christof's explanation here:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53846126
Wow! This is a very strong example of shutter shock. I never had this amount with the 60mm macro. But in my tests, I had a similar surprise with my 40-150/f4-5.6 and my tripod. There was a severe wobble on tripod, while handholding the lens had less shutter shock. Seems to be a similar "bad" combo in your case.
Without AS 60mm 1/125 s F13
...
A little test with results I did not expect!
The difference is clear!
Both on tripod from behind the window, the tree moved by the wind, the house not!
Both cropped in Olympus viewer.
By the way, as said, the effect is not limited to OM-Ds or mFT cameras. A heavy Nikon D700 with a 400mm zoom did very bad things on a tripod too. Did not do any further in depth tests with DSLRs, but I guess that some people in DSLR land would have a big surprise if they would look closely ...
I have a EM5 as second body, I like to use this body for non-critical usage. But in low light or for macro work, I take the EM1 with AntiShok=0. Just to be on the safe side.
Still hoping that Olympus will bring the AS=0 feature to the older bodies like EM5 or PM2....
Christof
--
OM-D + Sam7.5, PL25, O60, O75
P12-35, O75-300
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Poldersnapper
Veteran Member
Yes Christof, I hope that can be realized technically. And that they care enough about their loyal customers.
André
MatsP
Senior Member
A friend of mine with severe tremor and a skilled photographer often says he wouldn't even try to use a camera without IBIS or a lens without IS. A photojournalist I know a little who suffers from severe parkinson and is on heavy medication says that she wouldn't be able to a single shot without IBIS or IS. So of course the technology helps.It reflects what happens in today's environment of encouraging extra care with certain terminology. I attended a lecture recently where someone who 'works with the disadvantaged' on why one should not nonchalantly use the word 'disability' esp. without an iota of medical evidence. So I was curious why you and your friends use this word so freely in the context of shutter shock, and used it back at you to see what reaction I might get. The reaction was not, well, surprising.You have problems, your last comment was sick enough, I guess it was your idea of some joke.Your indifferent and apparently light-hearted liberal use of the term 'disability' might be cause enough for considering a change of career?4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.Since the door to 'disability' has been opened here, let me chip in.OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.One of the worst shutter shock I can get with my E-M5.
OMD with HLD-6 horizontal grip, sturdy Manfrotto tripod, lens: Olympus 40-150R.
Both are shot at 1/320, so in some cases shutter shock can be a problem even with much faster shutter speeds.
Both were shot with IS off, 2 sec timer, but first is without anti-shock, the second is with anti-shock 1/8s.
Those are 100% center crops.
Hand held, results are better, but there is still some slight blur, reducing resolution drastically.
The problem with shutter shock is that sometimes, as here, it's obvious, but most of the time, it's more subtle, and less regarding people don't notice it. They just don't realize that their pics could be much sharper with the same lens.
That's one extreme example. My other lenses don't show it in this proportion. Since I purchased the grip, I get almost no shutter shock with the 45 1.8, as well as other lenses. The 40-150 is the most stubborn, and if I want to get tack sharp pictures, I have to use anti-shock.
This is about the only time I might expect to see SS, with a cameras mounted to a tripod and using longer lenses, and this is the whole idea behind setting the delay.
Hand held SS should not be a problem for most of us, anti shock delay helps those disabled enough who have problems but your talking total nonsense by claiming we all get it, but don`t notice.
1. Do we feel the mechanical shock caused by the shutter through our hands/fingers? I do and everyone I have asked to try my camera does. My assumption is that anyone not able to feel that has some 'disability' in the motion sensors in their hands. I have observed ripples on the surface of a glass of water caused by shutter action of a camera put close on the same table.
2. The above demonstrate that there is a mechanical shock caused by the shutter, so the question moves to whether it has an effect or not. Now the evidence is that it does have an effect with shots on tripod.
3. The photographer tries to hold the camera steadily, basically with the tripod as the asymptotic ideal model to approach. A completely steady pair of hands that mimics the tripod perfectly will also get blurred photos.
4. Some people never get blurred photos. Their holding cannot be as steady as a tripod, perhaps an odd/mild form of Parkinsons or related 'ability' that perfectly counterbalances shutter shock.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
I work with people suffering from Parkinsons, you really have no idea have you.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/
My contention is that these modern technologies are not helping people with problems, less fortunate or different from others. They in most cases are helping the majority of normal people.
Some of these have become a necessity simply because of the way photographs are mostly displayed these days. A large number of pixels encourage pixel peeping and selective viewing of small parts of images has become the norm, and running to the drugstore to print out 6x4 paper pictures which are never scrutinized at shorter than arm's length has become abnormal. Hence problems that got masked with the latter approach before are very evident in today's environment. Any incompetence in IS, shutter shock removal, high ISO performance, AF inaccuracy, etc. are very quickly found out and negatively commented upon, affecting the commercial interests of the makers. No amount of positive experience testimonials would offset such bad publicity and manufacturers have, rightfully, been responsive.
--
MatsP
Senior Member
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran Member
or some people just claim in public that they don't get it... in some cases it is just a matter of not being able (does not matter whether it is intentionally or not) to see it - which is OK... for as long as they are happy... however the introduction of that extra option by Olympus means that there was a need to spend an effort (time/money)... do you think that it was done just for marketing purposes and not to address the real problem ?
Paulmorgan
Veteran Member
or some people just claim in public that they don't get it... in some cases it is just a matter of not being able (does not matter whether it is intentionally or not) to see it - which is OK.
Those of us that don`t see it, or can`t see it are not blind, or refusing to accept something that is there.
When I say I don`t get SS, I`m saying I don`t get SS, I am not blind or ignorant.
Olympus means that there was a need to spend an effort (time/money)... do you think that it was done just for marketing purposes and not to address the real problem ?
It is a real problem for some people but it is not a problem with the hardware, if it was we would all be suffering, Olympus are addressing this matter to help those that can`t get good shots.
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