Anynone care to comment on this hypothesis. bobn2 etc?

He claims to debunk myths, when he is actually perpetuating old misunderstandings.

Moreover, it seem to written specifically to provoke debate. Look at the repeated use of phrases like "full frame superiority" which smell a lot like flame bait.

There will probably always be a small group of people who will spend lot of time and effort devising yet more advanced "theories" to disprove fairly simple basic facts of life. Like the one that a larger area will be hit by more light then a smaller one, all else being equal.

The notion that a larger area for gathering light can be very beneficial is not something invented recently by proponents of full frame digital cameras. It has been a fairly well established fact throughout the photographic history, from the ye' old days of glass plates, through all the years of film and into the digital era.

The dude you linked to is just a recent addition to the photographic version of the flat earth society :)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smells funny
Why are you guys wasting time argue with the OP, if small sensor is equally as good as large sensor then why would anyone spend up to $30,000 for a medium format camera of up to 110MP sensor. Sensor is only part of a light gathering mechanism - how that light get there is equally important and play a large role in determine the final image out come. But photography is not just camera - camera is only an image acquisition tool, a mechanical device it is the person - the photographer behind that dumb mechanical thing that gives the image its life, its artistic merit - how that image is processed manipulated and enhanced by a skilled photographer that final out come is achieved. You may take a image but you have to make a picture, a photograph.
 
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...the light gathered per, for instance, a square mm of film is the same regardless of format. But the larger the format the more square mm there are. So the larger sensor gathers more light over its total surface, q.e.d.
Yes but the resulting image from the larger format has less DOF so you're comparing apples with oranges. Once you compensate for that both total surfaces receive the same amount of light.
 
...the light gathered per, for instance, a square mm of film is the same regardless of format. But the larger the format the more square mm there are. So the larger sensor gathers more light over its total surface, q.e.d.
Yes but the resulting image from the larger format has less DOF so you're comparing apples with oranges. Once you compensate for that both total surfaces receive the same amount of light.

--
Philip
The discussion here was not about DOF but light gathering of the sensor. We are all aware of the "equivalency" concept.
Maybe the writer of the 'article' should Google that term ;-)

--
Philip
 
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The author of the article is technically correct (the best type of correct!). All the people calling him "misinformed" should take a while to think before committing this sort of language to the permanence of the internet.

That being said, you may not agree with his practical conclusions.

The size of the sensor is irrelevant to the quality, DR, etc. It's the quality (and indirectly, size) of the photosites that determine that. A sensor is simply a collection of individual photosites, and the whole doesn't affect the individual photosite.

The D7000 from a practical standpoint (though not exactly), is just a D800 sensor with part of it chopped off. The d800 sensor does get hit by more light, but that light is spread out over more pixels, so the light gathering ability of any one photosite is the same on both sensors.

Of course, there are considerations about DOF, quality of lenses, etc - but that's not in scope for the article.

In any case, the analysis is correct.. What it is saying is this:

A D800 image at 100% will be of the same quality as a D7000 image at 100%. It just so happens that the D800 image will be larger.

From a practical standpoint, I don't quite a agree with the author, as I find that most D800 photos are downsampled when printed/displayed. What this means is that even though from a "pure" standpoint, the D7000 will ahve about the same image quality, from a practical standpont, the D800 will outperform because it's being downsampled. It's almost like pixel binning.

The benchmark tests "normalize" by assuming a common print size - so if you want to compare with same-sized prints, then your conclusion should be that the d800 outperforms, and that you don't agree with the conclusion of the author.

If you want to compare pure quality at 100%, and assume that D800 shots will be printed larger (because you can), then you conclusion would be that the the quality will be about the same, and that the D800 does not outperform on a final output quality.

For myself, I crop a lot, and I like to print as large, so I can safely assume that the D800 isn't getting me better quality prints, it's just getting me larger prints.
 
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What about d7100 vs d4s

Should not the d4s gather more light because the pixel sensors are larger and the area inbetween the pixels is larger.

I want something like effective pixel sensor surface in mm²
to compare if it is significant.
 
Nobody here argues that there is any difference between the DX crop from a full frame camera and a technically corresponding DX camera. The whole discussion is about the "light gathering" (in bold in the "author's" "article") of full frame vs. DX crop.

In addition you can look at his summary in the first link.

Do you agree with those points? In my opinion they are at best an indication of clouded logic. Also read how he tries to dispute that a full frame sensor collects more light in his second link where he refers to film.
 
Nobody here argues that there is any difference between the DX crop from a full frame camera and a technically corresponding DX camera. The whole discussion is about the "light gathering" (in bold in the "author's" "article") of full frame vs. DX crop.

In addition you can look at his summary in the first link.

Do you agree with those points? In my opinion they are at best an indication of clouded logic. Also read how he tries to dispute that a full frame sensor collects more light in his second link where he refers to film.
 
...the light gathered per, for instance, a square mm of film is the same regardless of format. But the larger the format the more square mm there are. So the larger sensor gathers more light over its total surface, q.e.d.
Yes but the resulting image from the larger format has less DOF so you're comparing apples with oranges. Once you compensate for that both total surfaces receive the same amount of light.
That's only true when you are light-limited, i.e. using an ISO higher than base ISO. Assuming the same base ISO for the larger and smaller format, and assuming that there is enough light such that the larger format can leave the shutter open longer, you can achieve the same DOF on full frame as APS-C, m4/3, etc. up until the point where you can no longer stop down the full frame lens any more and still reap all the benefits of the larger sensor.
 
You mention physics but you do not believe the math in my post?
If you can't handle the math then try this:
http://dtmateojr.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/debunking-the-myth-of-full-frame-superiority-part-2/
Let's talk about film:

Which would you rather use to make an A3 print or project to fill a 5ft screen? (Ignore any potential film flatness issues with the 110-cartridge.)

A. 110-film using ISO 64 Kodachrome, or 35mm film using ISO 64 Kodachrome? (film version of same pixel size, different number of pixels) Which will look grainer (noisier?)

B. 110-film using ISO 64 Kodachrome, or 35mm film using ISO 200 Kodachrome? (film version of different pixels or sensitivity at different ISO.) Which will look grainer (noisier?)

If you think about it, film usage actually contradicts your point.
 
The author of the article is technically correct
No, he is not :-)
(the best type of correct!). All the people calling him "misinformed" should take a while to think before committing this sort of language to the permanence of the internet.

That being said, you may not agree with his practical conclusions.

The size of the sensor is irrelevant to the quality, DR, etc. It's the quality (and indirectly, size) of the photosites that determine that. A sensor is simply a collection of individual photosites, and the whole doesn't affect the individual photosite.
But what is really relevant here is the DR and quality of the image, and the image is always made up of an aggregation of photosites (images made from single photosites would be a bit dull), which mean you will always need to look at the performance of the aggregation of photosites used. And as long as we use teh entire sensor of both the D800 and the D7000, the D800 indeed will produce better DR and quality by virtue of gathering more light (from its larger area).
The D7000 from a practical standpoint (though not exactly), is just a D800 sensor with part of it chopped off.
Correct.
The d800 sensor does get hit by more light,
Correct, but not accepted by the author of the article ;)
but that light is spread out over more pixels,
No, that is not how it works, which is the core of the misunderstanding.

To achieve that spreading out effect you are thinking about you would need to add a teleconverter, which is btw why you lose light from using teleconverters. And which is why the Metabones adapters who do the opposite thing of a teleconverter actually increases the light hitting the surface of smaller sensors. They 'gather' light to a smaller area as opposed to spreading it out as with a teleconverter.

If your reasoning was correct, for example the Metabones adapter just would not have the effect it has, and believe me it does :-)
so the light gathering ability of any one photosite is the same on both sensors.
Yes, which contradict the very point you were making moments before.There is no 'spreading out' of the light with a bigger sensor, just more light in relation to the bigger area.

And since there is room for 36 million of those photosites in a D800 sensor and a mere 16 million on the smaller D7000 sensor, the image created from the D800 sensor will be made up by 36/16=2.25 times more light. Which is what the author of the article don't accept. Which is why we say he is wrong :-)
Of course, there are considerations about DOF, quality of lenses, etc - but that's not in scope for the article.

In any case, the analysis is correct.. What it is saying is this:

A D800 image at 100% will be of the same quality as a D7000 image at 100%. It just so happens that the D800 image will be larger.
That is a backwards way of comparing images.
From a practical standpoint, I don't quite a agree with the author, as I find that most D800 photos are downsampled when printed/displayed.
Because what really is relevant is to look at the same output size from both.
What this means is that even though from a "pure" standpoint, the D7000 will ahve about the same image quality, from a practical standpont, the D800 will outperform because it's being downsampled. It's almost like pixel binning.
The D800 will outperform the D7000 simply by virtue of gathering more light to create the same image. More data to work with = better end result.

Even if the D800 had a 16 megapixel sensor, the outcome would be the same: 2.25 times more light gathered, better image. But would not gain resolution as we do now as a side effect.
The benchmark tests "normalize" by assuming a common print size - so if you want to compare with same-sized prints, then your conclusion should be that the d800 outperforms, and that you don't agree with the conclusion of the author.

If you want to compare pure quality at 100%, and assume that D800 shots will be printed larger (because you can), then you conclusion would be that the the quality will be about the same, and that the D800 does not outperform on a final output quality.
But that is like comparing two cars, one with a top speed of 70 mph with one with a top speed of 140 mph, drive both at full speed, and complain the faster care is noisier and has a less comfortable ride. It is not a fair comparison. To determine which of the cars who has the most comfortable ride, you need to drive them at the same speed (normalize them).

To compare image quality from any two cameras, the most fair way is to print an image with the same size from both and look at it from the same distance.
For myself, I crop a lot, and I like to print as large, so I can safely assume that the D800 isn't getting me better quality prints, it's just getting me larger prints.
How could the be larger if they did not contain more information?
 
The author of the article is technically correct
No, he is not :-)
(the best type of correct!). All the people calling him "misinformed" should take a while to think before committing this sort of language to the permanence of the internet.

That being said, you may not agree with his practical conclusions.

The size of the sensor is irrelevant to the quality, DR, etc. It's the quality (and indirectly, size) of the photosites that determine that. A sensor is simply a collection of individual photosites, and the whole doesn't affect the individual photosite.
But what is really relevant here is the DR and quality of the image, and the image is always made up of an aggregation of photosites (images made from single photosites would be a bit dull), which mean you will always need to look at the performance of the aggregation of photosites used. And as long as we use teh entire sensor of both the D800 and the D7000, the D800 indeed will produce better DR and quality by virtue of gathering more light (from its larger area).
The D7000 from a practical standpoint (though not exactly), is just a D800 sensor with part of it chopped off.
Correct.
The d800 sensor does get hit by more light,
Correct, but not accepted by the author of the article ;)
but that light is spread out over more pixels,
No, that is not how it works, which is the core of the misunderstanding.

To achieve that spreading out effect you are thinking about you would need to add a teleconverter, which is btw why you lose light from using teleconverters. And which is why the Metabones adapters who do the opposite thing of a teleconverter actually increases the light hitting the surface of smaller sensors. They 'gather' light to a smaller area as opposed to spreading it out as with a teleconverter.

If your reasoning was correct, for example the Metabones adapter just would not have the effect it has, and believe me it does :-)
so the light gathering ability of any one photosite is the same on both sensors.
Yes, which contradict the very point you were making moments before.There is no 'spreading out' of the light with a bigger sensor, just more light in relation to the bigger area.

And since there is room for 36 million of those photosites in a D800 sensor and a mere 16 million on the smaller D7000 sensor, the image created from the D800 sensor will be made up by 36/16=2.25 times more light. Which is what the author of the article don't accept. Which is why we say he is wrong :-)
Of course, there are considerations about DOF, quality of lenses, etc - but that's not in scope for the article.

In any case, the analysis is correct.. What it is saying is this:

A D800 image at 100% will be of the same quality as a D7000 image at 100%. It just so happens that the D800 image will be larger.
That is a backwards way of comparing images.
From a practical standpoint, I don't quite a agree with the author, as I find that most D800 photos are downsampled when printed/displayed.
Because what really is relevant is to look at the same output size from both.
What this means is that even though from a "pure" standpoint, the D7000 will ahve about the same image quality, from a practical standpont, the D800 will outperform because it's being downsampled. It's almost like pixel binning.
The D800 will outperform the D7000 simply by virtue of gathering more light to create the same image. More data to work with = better end result.

Even if the D800 had a 16 megapixel sensor, the outcome would be the same: 2.25 times more light gathered, better image. But would not gain resolution as we do now as a side effect.
The benchmark tests "normalize" by assuming a common print size - so if you want to compare with same-sized prints, then your conclusion should be that the d800 outperforms, and that you don't agree with the conclusion of the author.

If you want to compare pure quality at 100%, and assume that D800 shots will be printed larger (because you can), then you conclusion would be that the the quality will be about the same, and that the D800 does not outperform on a final output quality.
But that is like comparing two cars, one with a top speed of 70 mph with one with a top speed of 140 mph, drive both at full speed, and complain the faster care is noisier and has a less comfortable ride. It is not a fair comparison. To determine which of the cars who has the most comfortable ride, you need to drive them at the same speed (normalize them).

To compare image quality from any two cameras, the most fair way is to print an image with the same size from both and look at it from the same distance.
For myself, I crop a lot, and I like to print as large, so I can safely assume that the D800 isn't getting me better quality prints, it's just getting me larger prints.
How could the be larger if they did not contain more information?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!
By the way, film is not dead.
It just smells funny
Believe it or not, we're saying exactly the same thing.

What we are both saying is that on a same-image-size basis, the D800 will outperform an equivalent DX camera of the same pixel density because of the downsampling/pseudo-binning/aggregation/whatever you want to call it... .But only if you compare images of the same size.

A 100% print of the FX camera will have the same quality as a 100% print of a DX camera (assuming same photosites size/quality). It will of course be BIGGER, which is "better", but not "better quality.

This is what the article is saying.

The point that I made was that while this is technically correct, from a practical perspective, bigger is better, because it allows you to downsample, even if you're not printing large.

What we all seem to be disagree on is what "gathers more light" actually means.

I am saying that it does "gather more total light", just because it's bigger. I beleive that you are saying the same thing.


What I do not agree with would be "it gathers more light per photosite" or "gathers more light per square inch" - THIS is what would increase the "quality" of the capture.

The "quality" of the print does end up being better, just because it's being downsampled, up until we pass 100% for DX, then the "quality" of the print is still better, becasue the DX needs to be upsampled.

Each "pixel" captured isn't better, it's just the PRACTICAL application that ends up being better.

The other place people are getting confused is because FX is usually better than DX at the SAME RESOLUTION, because the photosites are bigger/better. This si what has fueled the "FX is better than DX" thinking, but that really isn't as true as it once was, because it's often the case that an FX and DX camera now has the same photosites. The problem is, people are still thinking that this is the reason FX is better, but that is much less true than it once was.

In any case, I really do think we're saying the same thing, we're just getting caught up in semantics.
 
...the light gathered per, for instance, a square mm of film is the same regardless of format. But the larger the format the more square mm there are. So the larger sensor gathers more light over its total surface, q.e.d.
Yes but the resulting image from the larger format has less DOF so you're comparing apples with oranges. Once you compensate for that both total surfaces receive the same amount of light.
That's only true when you are light-limited, i.e. using an ISO higher than base ISO. Assuming the same base ISO for the larger and smaller format, and assuming that there is enough light such that the larger format can leave the shutter open longer, you can achieve the same DOF on full frame as APS-C, m4/3, etc. up until the point where you can no longer stop down the full frame lens any more and still reap all the benefits of the larger sensor.
Well, no. By that time (f/22,f/32) diffraction will equalize the images of all sensor sizes.
 
The point I was trying to make here is that I like to print my photos as large as I can get away with... ie usually 100%.
100% is meaningless as a size until you specify a printer resolution.
SO, in effect I don't get better QUALITY photos, I just get larger photos - and this is the practical aspect that I described.
But to view the entire larger photo, you must stand further away -- which has the same effect as just printing smaller.
Just because there is more information, it doesn't mean that it's better quality
A future generation of sensors may contain billions of "pixels" that are only 1-bit deep (think of it as the worlds finest half-tone.) Sometimes quantity has an implicit quality of it's own.
 
Well, no. By that time (f/22,f/32) diffraction will equalize the images of all sensor sizes.
Well, no. Think of the "f/64 group" who shot large format at f/64 all of the time. It looks great in a contact print which should be a big clue.

Diffraction will be equal size on the sensor, but unequal for the same size print.
 
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Well, no. By that time (f/22,f/32) diffraction will equalize the images of all sensor sizes.
Well, no. Think of the "f/64 group" who shot large format at f/64 all of the time. It looks great in a contact print which should be a big clue.

Diffraction will be equal size on the sensor, but unequal for the same size print.
Well, yes, but did you ever see an 8x10" digital camera? There's one stop difference between DX and FX where both diffraction and DOF are equal if you put the DX at f/22 and the FX at f/32. 'Reaping the benefits of FF' seems a bit an overstatement ;-)

Not sure without calculating what aperture you need to get that DOF with an 8x10" camera but I doubt they ever made lenses with such an aperture. Maybe a pinhole.
 
You mention physics but you do not believe the math in my post?
If you can't handle the math then try this:
http://dtmateojr.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/debunking-the-myth-of-full-frame-superiority-part-2/
Let's talk about film:

Which would you rather use to make an A3 print or project to fill a 5ft screen? (Ignore any potential film flatness issues with the 110-cartridge.)

A. 110-film using ISO 64 Kodachrome, or 35mm film using ISO 64 Kodachrome? (film version of same pixel size, different number of pixels) Which will look grainer (noisier?)

B. 110-film using ISO 64 Kodachrome, or 35mm film using ISO 200 Kodachrome? (film version of different pixels or sensitivity at different ISO.) Which will look grainer (noisier?)

If you think about it, film usage actually contradicts your point.
 

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