Warning to EM-1 users :sunshine into EVF can create indeletable blotches, as confirmed by Olympus.

Thanks, Maya, agree with you.
I may add that I have not yet received an intelligible TECHNICAL explanation from Olympus as to the real cause of the problem, nor an explanation of whether this problem can occur also when the camera is SWITCHED OFF, for example when carried on a backpack or with the strap and the back of the camera pointing upward and thus eventually exposing the EVF eyepiece to the sunshine. Once again: all I was told by the Olympus customer service (in rather faulty German), was that they confirm that the EVF can get damaged resulting in blotches if the eyepiece is exposed to incoming sunshine, and that in order to avoid that, the EVF should be "somehow" protected from such exposures.
When and if I get a proper technical information, I will certainly share it here.

Zensu11 said:

Couldn't this also happen to a sensor? Say I put the Rokinon FE lens on my E-P5 and turn on the camera. The FE is probably going to have the sun in the frame and the sensor is on (open) so that I can have live view. Couldn't a lens focus the sunlight onto a sensor?

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Yes, it can and we are not supposed to shoot directly into strong light. There was a discussion here a while ago talking about shooting a laser show ...

joergzielosko said:

I remember that we used magnifying glasses and other lenses in the sun to burn wood when we were children. The same can easily happen with any other optics (viewfinder or front lens of a camera). That's not a technical flaw, that's optics!

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But that does not make it acceptable. It is up to the camera designers to address this. Nikon higher end cameras have an OVF shutter which is designed to prevent the meter from being affected by light going in via the VF when a remote trigger is used. This could work with EVF too.

babalu said:

To all interested , I am still expecting a sound explicit TECHNICAL information from Olympus Europe concerning the exact causes for this problem, and whether it can also happen to cameras that are NOT switched on, as all I have received is a confirmation that this can happen, and that they recommend to somehow protect the EVF from direct sunshine exposure.
I pointed them to the fact that , especially since this happens to their flagship product, a fast and thorough explanation is being expected by the user community.
By the way, to all those that have still not understood the point :
This happens only to the EVF screen - presumably when direct sunshine is projected onto the ocular of the EVF on the back of the camera . It does not have any impact on the sensor , thus also not affecting the images taken. IT ONLY AFFECTS THE DISPLAY OF THE EVF .

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I would assume that the technical explanation is that it's just overheating the display due to magnification from the eye piece. Kind of like if you left the whole camera on the dashboard of your car. Its going to get hot, high heat damages electronics.

It's more likely to be a problem if the EVF is on since your then have two heat sources, but even if its off if you leave it sitting in the sun on a hot day with the light hitting the evf glass it will probably cause damage at some point. Being weather seal probably increases the risk as well. Like a car in the sun with the windows closed vs window open a bit..

I use a side holster carrying system, so when the camera is not being used, it sits upside down and the EVF is against my waist/leg. I have it this way for dual carrying or single carrying and at least for me this mitigates the issue. However, my old cotton carrier system would have both cameras pointing down and EVFs pointing up and this would definitely be an issue, but then again, because my mft cameras+lenses are so much lighter, I don't use my cotton carrier anymore...

Some people cannot/ do not read before writing a response. Maybe this would work?

Warning:

"When sun shine into eyepiece on back of camera, sun can damage viewfinder. Damage happen when sun on back of camera. Not talking about taking picture into the sun, talking about sun shining INTO VIEWFINDER on BACK OF CAMERA!!!!

Viewfinder is on the back of the camera and is what you look through. Sun can enter here when you are not looking into viewfinder with your face." Sun will then damage viewfinder.

Maybe they will get it? if not, I don't know what to say.

I don't see anything unexplainable about this - sun enters viewfinder, viewfinder rear lens is a magnifier, and you get lots of sun focused on a small area. Ouch.

Yet another reason why I hate viewfinders, added to the list of: leaching rubber chemicals on your face, bugs hiding in the EVF, squinting, one-eye viewing, bumping into things, and so on...

babalu said:

Thanks, Maya, agree with you.
I may add that I have not yet received an intelligible TECHNICAL explanation from Olympus as to the real cause of the problem, nor an explanation of whether this problem can occur also when the camera is SWITCHED OFF, for example when carried on a backpack or with the strap and the back of the camera pointing upward and thus eventually exposing the EVF eyepiece to the sunshine. Once again: all I was told by the Olympus customer service (in rather faulty German), was that they confirm that the EVF can get damaged resulting in blotches if the eyepiece is exposed to incoming sunshine, and that in order to avoid that, the EVF should be "somehow" protected from such exposures.
When and if I get a proper technical information, I will certainly share it here.

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What exactly do you want to hear from Olympus? We all can imagine that strong sunlight, bundled by the EFV's optics, can cause damage to the EVF panel. So can Olympus.

If and when the damage actually occurs, may depend on many factors: intensity and arrival angle of the sunlight (obviously), environmental temperature, and the scene that is displayed in the EVF (on, off, dark, bright). So Olympus' suggestion to avoid sunlight entering the EVF eyepiece sounds reasonable to me.

joergzielosko said:

babalu said:

Thanks, Maya, agree with you.
I may add that I have not yet received an intelligible TECHNICAL explanation from Olympus as to the real cause of the problem, nor an explanation of whether this problem can occur also when the camera is SWITCHED OFF, for example when carried on a backpack or with the strap and the back of the camera pointing upward and thus eventually exposing the EVF eyepiece to the sunshine. Once again: all I was told by the Olympus customer service (in rather faulty German), was that they confirm that the EVF can get damaged resulting in blotches if the eyepiece is exposed to incoming sunshine, and that in order to avoid that, the EVF should be "somehow" protected from such exposures.
When and if I get a proper technical information, I will certainly share it here.

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What exactly do you want to hear from Olympus? We all can imagine that strong sunlight, bundled by the EFV's optics, can cause damage to the EVF panel. So can Olympus.

If and when the damage actually occurs, may depend on many factors: intensity and arrival angle of the sunlight (obviously), environmental temperature, and the scene that is displayed in the EVF (on, off, dark, bright). So Olympus' suggestion to avoid sunlight entering the EVF eyepiece sounds reasonable to me.

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Yes, but does this look reasonable to you?





From this thread:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3665592

André

--
'Keep on rockin' in the free world'
Mr Neil Young

OK understood now.

I guess it will depend on how much sun and for how long.

I think most reasonable people would assume that most reasonable people know that a lot of electronics cannot be left in the sun, whether they have an EVF or not: heat as in being exposed to direct sunlight in a car, can lead to plastics melting, electronics being damaged, and so on. And all user guides will warn against this.

So where this EVF issue would have merit, in my view, would be if it appeared after the camera was left in the sun for a relatively short period of time, say 10-15 minutes. But not if it appeared only after an hour or two.

Finally, it seems to me that it isn't easy to get a camera's EVF eyepiece to be exposed to direct sunlight for an extended period of time - because this would require continuously adjusting the EVF's aim so that it does receive that direct sunlight.

Again: it would be helpful, and add to the credibility, if you posted the email or scanned letter from Olympus. As it stands it is almost starting to read like a micro-marketing attempt by DSLR makers to worry potential EVF customers ahead of the holiday season! ;-)

MayaTlab0 said:

antoineb said:

Hmmm.

Among other cameras, I own a DSLR. It of course has an OVF not an EVF. If I want I can use this OVF to compose shots pointed straight at the sun. If I do this for an extended period of time into the bright sun then I can burn "blotches" on my retina, which no technical support will be able to repair! ;-)

This doesn't mean that my eyes are faulty, nor that the OVF of my DSLR is faulty - it just means that when you take an intense enough incident beam of light, and focus it for long enough on a light sensitive surface, that surface will be damaged.

Obviously an EVF works exactly in the same manner: incident light comes in, hits the sensor, and then the signal gets sent to a tiny display making up the EVF. Based on the experience with my DSLR in live-view mode, the sensor is "happy" to receive unfiltered direct sun light for several seconds at a time without any damage (we would sure hope so, or else the camera would have to come with a warning, "don't use on sunny days" ;-). But there obviously is a limit to this before too much intensity somewhere either damages the imaging sensor, or damages the EVF display.

So what is the fix?
- more or less reasonable users, who won't attempt to aim directly at the sun for extended periods of time, any more than they would attempt to drop their camera in water...
- or, a manufacturer could of course assume that users are just so lacking in common sense, and have the camera shut down if pointed directly at a bright light source for more than several seconds. Or issue a warning beep. But if they do this then they could also include self-inflating buoys just in case the user would want to put their camera under water... ;-)

P.S. I think your post would read more credibly if you were able to quote the exact words from Olympus, or better post their complete email (or a scan of a paper letter).

babalu said:

As you have all probably already read in another thread in this forum, I have very recently received a confirmation from the techical support of Olympus in Europe that strong sunshine into the EVF of the E-M1 can cause indeletable blotches in the EVF display, in which case will then need the camera to be turned in to Olympus for repair. Their recommendation is to avoid direct sunshine into the EVF by "somehow" covering it. Since this issue seems to have affected several users, I thought it appropriate to issue a warning via this thread. I personally believe this to be a serious technical flaw that needs to be addressed by Olympus ASAP.

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Once again (I don't know how many time it will have to be repeated in this thread), this isn't about light hitting the sensor, it's about light hitting the EVF itself through the eye piece, damaging it.

And given that there are hardly any report of such damage for most EVFs apart from a Canon camcorder several years ago (XL1 I believe) and so far an E-M5 and several E-M1 (exact same problem), I suppose a valid claim can be made that this might be beyond normal and needs investigation.

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... at least not in the way some people here seem to be thinking of it, which appears to be drawn from childhood memories of focusing a small, intense point of light on an object with a magnifying glass by holding it (and this is the important part) several inches above said object.

The LCD screen is simply too close to the glass to have anything near this effect, and a better analogy would be window, rather than magnifying glass. Granted, it does increase the image size slightly, and can be diopter-corrected to some degree, but if you've ever tried starting a fire by holding a pair of eyeglasses half a centimeter from a piece of paper, you would have been there all day and had a cold night.
And as for the concept of ANY sunlight being damaging to electronic display screens even in small doses, one entire wall of my apartment is west-facing windows that allow hours of sunlight to fall directly on both my computer screen and television for hours every day while I'm at work - and while the TV is off while I'm gone, the computer is frequently running programs or up/downloading files with either the desktop or a slide-show screen saver being displayed. It's been here for years, and I've never had a problem.

As I mentioned above, I've carried my EM-5 for years in such a way that every time I happen to be walking with my back to the sun, that sun will be shining into my viewfinder, and I've never had a problem. (And neither have the owners of most EVF-equipped cameras, judging by other comments here.) So there's got to be something more at play here than 'magnifying glass effect' and/or 'any sun should be avoided.'

totally agree with your input, but with some exceptions... Nothing to do with DSLR makers here, and for that matter you can check my profile to confirm my presence here from 2002 as a Pentax, Nikon, Leica and Olympus owner, and the one who recently sold last piece of my Nikon gear, having had 14-24 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 and the number of premium primes... Now, I got this particular problem with viewfinder while being on vacation to Dominican Republic, and as you can imagine the sun was pretty intense. Just for a record, I have enough knowledge specifically dealing with electronics since 1984, and i know exactly what could happened and how long it takes to damage it. As i mentioned before, my take is that the lcd inside E-m1 viewfinder might be damaged fairly quickly. How long it takes for such an exposure..? You are right - depends on how intense the sunlight is, but in my case it could be a matter of 1-2 minutes while reviewing the images having the viewfinder exposed to the sky. What was wrong? Sure, i did not put my finger on top of an eyepiece... My question is: what about if i decided to do some macro shots from a tripod and having a camera facing sky when its sunny outside?

It's like I said. I think that the EVF should survive any "reasonable" treatment. Leaving the camera in direct sun for an hour might not be considered "reasonable" - perhaps outdoors but not if inside a closed vehicle.

Not sure about your macro argument: I don't think that a serious macro photographer would shoot macro outdoors right under the midday sun on a tripod and for a couple hours. More likely either we would have a casual photographer capturing a couple shots with whatever light was available - or a serious macro photographer coming back with organised lights and certainly not direct sunlight for hours at a time?

I think I am waiting, and perhaps others are still waiting, to see the actual email or scanned paper mail from Olympus which you claimed you had received confirming this issue? Without this evidence I' afraid I'm really starting to doubt that this is genuine?

halievski said:

totally agree with your input, but with some exceptions... Nothing to do with DSLR makers here, and for that matter you can check my profile to confirm my presence here from 2002 as a Pentax, Nikon, Leica and Olympus owner, and the one who recently sold last piece of my Nikon gear, having had 14-24 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 and the number of premium primes... Now, I got this particular problem with viewfinder while being on vacation to Dominican Republic, and as you can imagine the sun was pretty intense. Just for a record, I have enough knowledge specifically dealing with electronics since 1984, and i know exactly what could happened and how long it takes to damage it. As i mentioned before, my take is that the lcd inside E-m1 viewfinder might be damaged fairly quickly. How long it takes for such an exposure..? You are right - depends on how intense the sunlight is, but in my case it could be a matter of 1-2 minutes while reviewing the images having the viewfinder exposed to the sky. What was wrong? Sure, i did not put my finger on top of an eyepiece... My question is: what about if i decided to do some macro shots from a tripod and having a camera facing sky when its sunny outside?

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antoineb said:

It's like I said. I think that the EVF should survive any "reasonable" treatment. Leaving the camera in direct sun for an hour might not be considered "reasonable" - perhaps outdoors but not if inside a closed vehicle.

Not sure about your macro argument: I don't think that a serious macro photographer would shoot macro outdoors right under the midday sun on a tripod and for a couple hours. More likely either we would have a casual photographer capturing a couple shots with whatever light was available - or a serious macro photographer coming back with organised lights and certainly not direct sunlight for hours at a time?

I think I am waiting, and perhaps others are still waiting, to see the actual email or scanned paper mail from Olympus which you claimed you had received confirming this issue? Without this evidence I' afraid I'm really starting to doubt that this is genuine?

halievski said:

totally agree with your input, but with some exceptions... Nothing to do with DSLR makers here, and for that matter you can check my profile to confirm my presence here from 2002 as a Pentax, Nikon, Leica and Olympus owner, and the one who recently sold last piece of my Nikon gear, having had 14-24 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 and the number of premium primes... Now, I got this particular problem with viewfinder while being on vacation to Dominican Republic, and as you can imagine the sun was pretty intense. Just for a record, I have enough knowledge specifically dealing with electronics since 1984, and i know exactly what could happened and how long it takes to damage it. As i mentioned before, my take is that the lcd inside E-m1 viewfinder might be damaged fairly quickly. How long it takes for such an exposure..? You are right - depends on how intense the sunlight is, but in my case it could be a matter of 1-2 minutes while reviewing the images having the viewfinder exposed to the sky. What was wrong? Sure, i did not put my finger on top of an eyepiece... My question is: what about if i decided to do some macro shots from a tripod and having a camera facing sky when its sunny outside?

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first of all , i didnt claim anything... you better check wich post you replying to..? Secondly, regarding the quote if its "genuine" - this is your problem to doubt or not ... when you get those spots we'll talk again, for now have a good day! As i said i don't want to make a big deal and have no intention to prove anything to anybody, i had my camera fixed and from now on i'll be watching the sun very carefully, if somebody has any doubts thats fine...

antoineb said:

It's like I said. I think that the EVF should survive any "reasonable" treatment. Leaving the camera in direct sun for an hour might not be considered "reasonable" - perhaps outdoors but not if inside a closed vehicle.

Not sure about your macro argument: I don't think that a serious macro photographer would shoot macro outdoors right under the midday sun on a tripod and for a couple hours. More likely either we would have a casual photographer capturing a couple shots with whatever light was available - or a serious macro photographer coming back with organised lights and certainly not direct sunlight for hours at a time?

I think I am waiting, and perhaps others are still waiting, to see the actual email or scanned paper mail from Olympus which you claimed you had received confirming this issue? Without this evidence I' afraid I'm really starting to doubt that this is genuine?

halievski said:

totally agree with your input, but with some exceptions... Nothing to do with DSLR makers here, and for that matter you can check my profile to confirm my presence here from 2002 as a Pentax, Nikon, Leica and Olympus owner, and the one who recently sold last piece of my Nikon gear, having had 14-24 2.8, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 and the number of premium primes... Now, I got this particular problem with viewfinder while being on vacation to Dominican Republic, and as you can imagine the sun was pretty intense. Just for a record, I have enough knowledge specifically dealing with electronics since 1984, and i know exactly what could happened and how long it takes to damage it. As i mentioned before, my take is that the lcd inside E-m1 viewfinder might be damaged fairly quickly. How long it takes for such an exposure..? You are right - depends on how intense the sunlight is, but in my case it could be a matter of 1-2 minutes while reviewing the images having the viewfinder exposed to the sky. What was wrong? Sure, i did not put my finger on top of an eyepiece... My question is: what about if i decided to do some macro shots from a tripod and having a camera facing sky when its sunny outside?

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Well,
FOR YOUR PEACE OF MIND,

here is an extract of the first mail I received.
It is in German, but I will not bother to translate it, lest that too may raise your suspicions.

" ... vielen Dank für Ihre E-Mail, sowie Anfrage.

Sehr gerne bin ich Ihnen behilflich, bezüglich Ihrer Anfrage.

Bezüglich der von Ihnen genannte Sachverhalt mit den Flecken im Sucher, dann wird dieser durch direkten Sonnenschein (Direkter Sonneneinfall) auf dem großen Elektronischen Sucher hervorgerufen und wir können Ihnen nur empfehlen, bei starken Sonnenschein den Sucher nicht der Sonne auszusetzen und den Sucher am besten irgendwie abdecken.

Wie es auch einige User schon im Dpreview Forum Ihnen mitgeteilt hat.

Falls dennoch dieses Phänomen erneut auftreten sollte, dann müsste Ihre E-M1 in den Service eingesendet werden, zwecks Reparatur.

Hoffe ich könnte Ihnen behilflich sein und Ihre Frage beantworten.
Für eventuelle Rückfragen, stehe ich Ihnen gerne zu Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen "

Babalu

jharvey said:

... at least not in the way some people here seem to be thinking of it, which appears to be drawn from childhood memories of focusing a small, intense point of light on an object with a magnifying glass by holding it (and this is the important part) several inches above said object.

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See this post by Anders W:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53794621

jharvey said:

The LCD screen is simply too close to the glass to have anything near this effect, and a better analogy would be window, rather than magnifying glass. Granted, it does increase the image size slightly, and can be diopter-corrected to some degree, but if you've ever tried starting a fire by holding a pair of eyeglasses half a centimeter from a piece of paper, you would have been there all day and had a cold night.

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This is an effect of commonly found magnifying glasses having relatively long FL, and nothing else. There is no law saying that no lens can focus light at a short distance. You just need a lens with a small FL. This kind of magnifying lens is however pretty useless for helping with reading, hence don't get made in large numbers for children to have a chance to play with.

jharvey said:

As I mentioned above, I've carried my EM-5 for years in such a way that every time I happen to be walking with my back to the sun, that sun will be shining into my viewfinder, and I've never had a problem. (And neither have the owners of most EVF-equipped cameras, judging by other comments here.) So there's got to be something more at play here than 'magnifying glass effect' and/or 'any sun should be avoided.'

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Not enough evidence to support the assertion. "Something else at play" could be that the other VF's had display panels less affected by somewhat high temperatures caused by focused sunlight, or better reflective protection, etc.

tt321 said:

jharvey said:

... at least not in the way some people here seem to be thinking of it, which appears to be drawn from childhood memories of focusing a small, intense point of light on an object with a magnifying glass by holding it (and this is the important part) several inches above said object.

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See this post by Anders W:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53794621

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But this theory doesn't seem to take into account that, given that there are multiple diopter settings, and given that when the sun is shining directly into the viewfinder, we're just talking about a lens (viewfinder optics including diopter setting) focusing an object at infinity (sun) on a focal plane (viewfinder display), that at best the sun at infinity could only be perfectly focused at infinity on the display at one of those diopter settings. So if indeed, the circumstances do make Brennpunkt a factor at all, it should only be occurring at one of the available diopter settings.

(Who knows, diopter settings may be a useful question to ask those affected to see it there's a pattern. Perhaps EM-1 owners with perfect vision are more at risk than the nearsighted - or vice versa. (Though that still wouldn't answer why it hasn't been popping up in other EVF cameras.))

tt321 said:

tt321 said:

The LCD screen is simply too close to the glass to have anything near this effect, and a better analogy would be window, rather than magnifying glass. Granted, it does increase the image size slightly, and can be diopter-corrected to some degree, but if you've ever tried starting a fire by holding a pair of eyeglasses half a centimeter from a piece of paper, you would have been there all day and had a cold night.

Click to expand...

This is an effect of commonly found magnifying glasses having relatively long FL, and nothing else. There is no law saying that no lens can focus light at a short distance. You just need a lens with a small FL. This kind of magnifying lens is however pretty useless for helping with reading, hence don't get made in large numbers for children to have a chance to play with.

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True enough. I over-simplified, and there's some seriously curved glass in an OM-D viewfinder. I'm just betting that whatever the effective focal length of all that viewfinder glass, it isn't such to be causing the display burn being described.

tt321 said:

tt321 said:

As I mentioned above, I've carried my EM-5 for years in such a way that every time I happen to be walking with my back to the sun, that sun will be shining into my viewfinder, and I've never had a problem. (And neither have the owners of most EVF-equipped cameras, judging by other comments here.) So there's got to be something more at play here than 'magnifying glass effect' and/or 'any sun should be avoided.'

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Not enough evidence to support the assertion. "Something else at play" could be that the other VF's had display panels less affected by somewhat high temperatures caused by focused sunlight, or better reflective protection, etc.

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It will be interesting if we ever learn the actual mechanics of what's causing this damage, and at this point all the 'data,' including my own experience, is purely anecdotal, but the mere fact that we haven't been seeing the same kind of complaints or warnings about other similar viewfinder systems would indicate that there IS something else at play (perhaps one or both of the 2 something elses you postulate above). Otherwise, we would have been hearing reports related to 'magnifying glass effect' and/or 'any sun should be avoided' here or through other sources on a regular basis for a some years now.

Meanwhile, it's all idle speculation until if and when Olympus gives a definitive answer, or some magazine or website does a bit of investigative destructive side-by-side testing comparing this to other EVFs.

, but rather a technical limitation, as any man made system is subject to imperfection.

I am one of the ones in the previous thread whose E-M1 developed the green blotches. The spots appeared while shooting at the zoo, sometimes in shade, sometimes in the sun. All was fine until I turned the camera off and changed lenses. The camera hung lens down momentarily from my neck strap while I put the other lens in my bag. I carry a Domke F2, it's a very quick in and out with lens changes: lift the cover, drop the lens in, drop cover, done - 15 seconds is being generous. When I turned the camera back on, there were green blotches in the viewfinder.

For those who are still confused about the issue, the blotches affect only the LCD in the viewfinder, they do not affect the sensor and do not appear on the photos. They are not the result of taking photos of the sun, and they do not require prolonged exposure of the viewfinder to direct sunlight.

After reading through this thread, I can't say this enough: it is not being caused by neglect, misuse, or abuse of the cameras. Exposing the viewfinder to direct sunlight for short periods of time should not cause damage to the camera. That likelihood should have been anticipated and mitigated during the design process. Many people use cameras on tripods, macros for example, and the camera's viewfinder will often be exposed to sunlight while the photographer positions things. Others, like myself, often shoot with two cameras. One camera hangs from the neck strap while I shoot with the other - I'm not concentrating on sunlight hitting the camera I'm not using, I'm concentrating on the camera in my hands. Still other people use hand straps, wrist straps, sling straps and other means of carrying cameras. The E-M1 should not require constant babysitting while out shooting, it's advertised as a workhorse, high end, professional camera.

My camera was repaired under warranty and there were no notes about the cause. The repair ticket lists the parts replaced as: EVF LCD and associated parts, FPC back unit, and Frame eyepiece unit.

When all is said and done, the camera works as new again. I appreciate that Olympus also cleaned the sensor, recalibrated and realigned the autofocus, cleaned the camera inside and out, and did the firmware update that I hadn't gotten to. The camera was back in my hands exactly two weeks from the day I sent it. All in all, I think they did a great job with the repair. That said, I am feeling very apprehensive about using it now. I have lost considerable confidence in it, which is a real shame, because I love the camera.

Do you know how to read? I was talking about sunlight entering EVF as well (which may happen when we have the camera facing down when checking photos or menus as previously mentioned). When did I talk about the lens facing the sun or damaging the sensor?