mFT/camera industry: time to better adapt to smart phones?

As someone who is a sucker for tech, I generally disagree. If camera designers would focus on perfecting the local communication ability of their cameras, I think that would be more useful than cramming the smartphone features you already have in your pocket into the camera. It's also cheaper to leverage the large HD screen that most smartphone users already have then including it in the camera and jacking the price and size of the camera up.

I'm really very interested in the Sony QX100 as I think this is the type of product that will be the future of casual photography and more along the lines of what you're looking for. Leveraging the existing technology we all have (network connectivity, easy sharing, big screens) instead of compromising the experience with a full camera makes more sense both for the consumer and manufacturer. Let the camera companies focus on making a good camera and the smartphone makers can do what they do best, make a mediocre product that we all deal with.
 
The EM1 already has a mobile connection, and it's highly likely that this was done with web services on the EM1 - that is the standard for remote data services for mobile devices.

If Oly would publish those web services, they would get independent developers coming up with new and interesting ways to use that. And it wouldn't cost them one cent.
 
I found Sony's QX concept intriguing but ultimately more of a kludge in use than any of the alternatives, including a smaller point and shoot, phone, or even my M43... However, an improved QX line with more compact models that offer higher quality prime lenses would be tempting.

The small sensor model is larger in my pocket than a small sensor compact, and the one with the 1" sensor is larger still (RX100 isn't that much more expensive and easier to pocket). Give me a bright 35mm or 50mm pancake that I can actually pocket on top of that 1" sensor tho and now we're talking.

Sony would probably price such a thing out of this world or fumble it some other way tho... I don't even know if they're committed to future QX models, have they sold even remotely well?
 
The QX probably haven't sold well for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is that no one knows they exist. I don't think Sony made it as a mass sale product yet.
Its first gen technology and certainly needs ironing out but it seems much more marketable in the future than an ILC with no buttons and a giant screen.
 
The EM1 already has a mobile connection, and it's highly likely that this was done with web services on the EM1 - that is the standard for remote data services for mobile devices.

If Oly would publish those web services, they would get independent developers coming up with new and interesting ways to use that. And it wouldn't cost them one cent.
Independent developers aren't fairy dust, just because Oly publishes an open API for something doesn't mean they'll show up in droves. There's open APIs AND other incentives for Windows Phone (amongst other big software ventures) yet developers aren't exactly beating down the doors... It takes a lot more than simply publishing an API to attract attention. I'm not even sure what you guys are hoping developers would address, just because there's an API doesn't mean there'd be low level access to fundamentally alter something like the behaviour of the Wi-Fi connection...

Frankly it just seems simpler to leave all that to the phones and tablets. I'm fine with just having a good solid connectivity option for getting my photos across to those devices. Panasonic's Wi-Fi/NFC implementation actually works pretty well for me, no connection issues but I'm usually not testing the extremes of it's range either.

NFC makes pairing quick but establishing the connection itself could be a little quicker still, and removing the extra step of having to open the app first would be great (just change the nfc intent, right now it points you to a site where you can download the app even when you have it already). Not having RAW transfers over Wi-Fi isn't a big deal imo, it isn't practical right now. If I wanna transfer them for backup purposes it's quicker to just pull out a micro USB OTG cable.
 
Independent developers aren't fairy dust, just because Oly publishes an open API for something doesn't mean they'll show up in droves.
While I think an independent developer could do a better you have a valid point. A better app for to replace the Panasonic image app would be very low volume and would have to compete with the completely free one from Panasonic. I am often amazed how bad free apps have to be before people will spend $5 to get one without ads that works really well.

I am not sure why you think transferring raw files is impractical. They are about 4 times larger but not everyone is a high volume shooter. Shooting raw a 16GB card is more than enough for a week long vacation in my case. I currently use a OTG cable and file manager but the process could be a lot simpler with an app to keep track of what files have already been backed up. I would trade longer transfer times for one less small item to keep track of. Whether or not I want to make that tradeoff should be my choice unless there is a technical reason that prevents it.

I get the impression right now these WiFi and the apps are regarded as pass/fail, that as long as the camera has WiFi how well it works does not matter. But it does matter. If camera companies do want to keep control of connectivity they need to start doing a better job of it. I already wrote a long rant in this thread about how I think they made location tracking clunkier than it needs to be. The remote control portion of the image app works pretty well for me but unless I start shooting JPEG the image transfer portion is useless. And the whole app has a sort of Windows 3.1 feel to it. As if "Meh, close enough" was not just the acceptance criteria but the design goal. WiFi and connectivity are increasingly important features that people consider while deciding what camera to buy. Having really good connectivity instead of just being able to add WiFi to the list of features on a press release would be a good selling point.
 
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So what are you saying?

Are you saying that cameras should include a SIM for 'instant communications'?

No thanks, I do not want my camera becoming a phone.

Or are you saying that cameras should eliminate all buttons and dials and go touch only?

No thank you, in spades. I do not want touch anything on my camera, but I do want a plethora of buttons and dials that give me direct acces to camera functions. I also want as many of those buttons as possible to be customizable so I can customize the camera to the way I like to use it.

I think you may be confusing casual photography (snapshots, if you will), with the needs of photographers (people who have a strong interest in capturing the best image possible).

I have a smartphone, and micro four thirds mirrorless and FF DSLRs. Each have their place when it comes to taking photos. But when I am out to take the best images I can, the smartphone is not on the list of choices of which camera to use.

The images from my smartphone are actually pretty decent, but no way would I use the smartphone as my first, or only, choice.

But to each their own. If the smartphone is what works for you, then that is what you should use.
 
A few things

1) Your phone is mostly subsidized. If your company is getting you a phone, you more than likely paying zero. Those screens and those electronics at the size your suggesting are not cheap and would not make cameras smaller but larger because we still need physical buttons to be efficient. if you want to pay another $600 + for your camera, then those big screens would be great

2) Wifi, Bluetooth and GPS SHOULD be part of cameras by default. This would go a long way in allowing integration with cell phones. They problem as always with Japanese, they will make and use proprietary protocols and crappy apps. I look at the crap that is IO.Share and scream 'WHY!" They need to make an open API that would allow ANY developer to create ANY app. Just provide the necessary API and let developers do what developers do best.
Totally agreed onespecially the GPS; I don't see how the bluetooth would be useful with WIFI available now. And again agreed on the app needing to be open to all.
3) Tethering -- really, why does Olympus not understand this very SIMPLY feature. Allow me to tether to my PC, to my Microsoft Surface, iPad or Android Tablet. Both wireless or via a wire. Why is this so hard?
In the latest update this has more or less been accomplished - you can use your tablet to control all aspects of the EM-1 / EP-5 - I haven't tried it yet with the latest firmware but I see this as done already.

I do hope they allow uncompressed video out through the HDMI channel - I thought this was available seeing the initial EM-1 video showing its insane 5 axis capability in video. Alas not to be.
4) Japanese camera companies -- all of them -- do not understand workflow of a photograph. They believe that everything should be proprietary and then do not put enough resources to make it better. If, like the cell phone companies, they create a set of public APIs then instead of using their limited resources and develpment staff, they would have a whole world of smart developers that would add value to the platform. This is a good analogy. Is the value of the iPad or iPhone or Android phones or Windows Phones the hardware/ Or it the 1 million + apps available for each of those platforms? Japanese camera companies SUCK a software, get out of the software business and create public APIs for independent developers to do their thing. I have personally had discussions with Olympus about this as I am software developer and they simply DO NOT GET IT!

5) In the case of Olympus, the ART Filters are a waste of time and feature. Nobody buys their cameras because of the ART Filters and on the long list of things that people want, it is at the bottom of the list. I am sure there are considered a way to have photo editing features like cell phone, except they are slow and do not work well. If they had a Filter API that developers could create and then allow a means for users to download their favorite filters via an Olympus Market Place, this would be far be than what is available to us today.

In short, there are some things the camera makers could learn from cell phones. But the Japanese camrea makers only look to their own backyard for ideas, are closed minded and are living in the 70s -- their insular culture makes it almost impossible to make better products outside of the body and censor.

While all the camera companies continue to loose money, they all believe by doing the same thing that does not work will somehow make it better at some point -- that is insanity!
 
I strongly disagree. A camera is a photography tool not a communication device.
One could just as well argue that a telephone is a communication device, not a photography tool, yet telephones are displacing cameras as photography tools.
 
Did you see Samsung Galaxy NX? It's dslr style mirrorless camera with good lens system with huge screen and touch controls.
This.

Samsung offers what you want. Well, and Leica, but the prices are a bit steep.
 
Some thoughts:
1) Your phone is mostly subsidized. If your company is getting you a phone, you more than likely paying zero. Those screens and those electronics at the size your suggesting are not cheap and would not make cameras smaller but larger because we still need physical buttons to be efficient. if you want to pay another $600 + for your camera, then those big screens would be great
4.7" LCD Samsung Galaxy Camera 2's are $400, 4.8" Samsung S3's now $220, so the premium isn't as steep as you suggest. No argument that latest gen cellphone's are partially subsidized to bind you to lucrative 2 year service contracts, but you can still buy that 4.8" Samsung S3 without a contract for $220.

On LCD size, many here seem to feel the current 3" screen is somehow the "sweet spot" to allow for physical buttons. For myself, when viewing the diminutive GM1 which still maintains a 3:5 aspect 3" screen and physical controls, I can envision an E-M1 sized camera with similar physical controls alongside a 4" screen and control wheels/programmable buttons on the top plate. Perhaps even smaller with creative design of the tilt screen bezel.

http://j.mp/RtTj8O

Standards are creatures of their times. Wasn't that long ago that 2" and then 2.5" were thought to be wonderful screen sizes. Times change, and an entire generation of potential enthusiast grade camera consumers have been spoiled by larger camera phone screens.

To me, a larger screen simply makes sense for those who shoot using the screen (and there are many), for viewing your shot in the field to keep or delete it, and for sharing a photo with other photographers in the field.

On the Samsung NX, I think Samsung over-reached at 4.7", ballooning its size beyond what this mFT user finds attractive and largely eliminating physical controls.

All things are a balance, and even smart phones have now reached a point where many are questioning whether 5.5" screens drive size too large. LG has done an admirable job with the upcoming G3, keeping the bezel to a bare minimum to maintain a reasonable size, but it's still a bit big and heavy at 5.6 oz.

Same goes for mFT cameras. Size is one of their key attractions, and this plays into screen size. I think 4", or thereabouts, should be doable for those who like an E-M1 sized camera, and it would enhance my enjoyment of shooting and help sales with those upgrading from smart phones.

To quell an apparent misunderstanding, I also find a good VF indispensable, using my E-M5's EVF almost entirely for shooting, leaving the LCD for viewing the results. I eagerly look forward to my next camera having an E-M1 quality EVF.
3) Tethering -- really, why does Olympus not understand this very SIMPLY feature. Allow me to tether to my PC, to my Microsoft Surface, iPad or Android Tablet. Both wireless or via a wire. Why is this so hard?
Mark Chan wrote this has been accomplished with the latest E-M1 and E-P5 firmware updates. I'm not sure if the newer E-M10 already allows this.
4) Japanese camera companies -- all of them -- do not understand workflow of a photograph. They believe that everything should be proprietary and then do not put enough resources to make it better. If, like the cell phone companies, they create a set of public APIs then instead of using their limited resources and develpment staff, they would have a whole world of smart developers that would add value to the platform. This is a good analogy. Is the value of the iPad or iPhone or Android phones or Windows Phones the hardware/ Or it the 1 million + apps available for each of those platforms? Japanese camera companies SUCK a software, get out of the software business and create public APIs for independent developers to do their thing. I have personally had discussions with Olympus about this as I am software developer and they simply DO NOT GET IT!
Others responded such camera specific app's would be too low in volume to attract software designers. If so, maybe camera manufacturer's would better serve their users by out-sourcing this to those who specialize in it. It's simply an area where camera phones, which sell in exponentially larger numbers and so can attract such talent for free, have a huge advantage. The idea of being able to continually add and update features in my camera certainly seems natural given the smart phone world we now live in.

Just as mFT freed us from being slaves to the camera manufacturer's lens mount, this might free us from waiting for firmware updates that sometimes never come.
In short, there are some things the camera makers could learn from cell phones. But the Japanese camera makers only look to their own backyard for ideas, are closed minded and are living in the 70s -- their insular culture makes it almost impossible to make better products outside of the body and censor.

While all the camera companies continue to loose money, they all believe by doing the same thing that does not work will somehow make it better at some point -- that is insanity!
Upper management of Canon is largely in their 70's, not sure about the rest, but the industry seems to behave as though they are when it comes to recognizing how they can use lessons from cellphones to compliment their own products and maintain acceptance in a younger marketplace. Again, I no longer view smart phones and cameras as exclusive purchases, but complimentary.
Dave Lively, post: 53736610, member: 413561"]
I get the impression right now these WiFi and the apps are regarded as pass/fail, that as long as the camera has WiFi how well it works does not matter. But it does matter. If camera companies do want to keep control of connectivity they need to start doing a better job of it. WiFi and connectivity are increasingly important features that people consider while deciding what camera to buy.
I couldn't have said it better, Dave.

Bottom line, cell phones have pulled the rug out from under basic compact sales, but they've also resulted in some wonderful innovation that higher featured cameras could take better advantage of. We're only at the beginning here, that's my sense.

--
Sailin' Steve

[/QUOTE]
 
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Independent developers aren't fairy dust, just because Oly publishes an open API for something doesn't mean they'll show up in droves.
While I think an independent developer could do a better you have a valid point. A better app for to replace the Panasonic image app would be very low volume and would have to compete with the completely free one from Panasonic. I am often amazed how bad free apps have to be before people will spend $5 to get one without ads that works really well.

I am not sure why you think transferring raw files is impractical. They are about 4 times larger but not everyone is a high volume shooter. Shooting raw a 16GB card is more than enough for a week long vacation in my case. I currently use a OTG cable and file manager but the process could be a lot simpler with an app to keep track of what files have already been backed up. I would trade longer transfer times for one less small item to keep track of. Whether or not I want to make that tradeoff should be my choice unless there is a technical reason that prevents it.

I get the impression right now these WiFi and the apps are regarded as pass/fail, that as long as the camera has WiFi how well it works does not matter. But it does matter. If camera companies do want to keep control of connectivity they need to start doing a better job of it. I already wrote a long rant in this thread about how I think they made location tracking clunkier than it needs to be. The remote control portion of the image app works pretty well for me but unless I start shooting JPEG the image transfer portion is useless. And the whole app has a sort of Windows 3.1 feel to it. As if "Meh, close enough" was not just the acceptance criteria but the design goal. WiFi and connectivity are increasingly important features that people consider while deciding what camera to buy. Having really good connectivity instead of just being able to add WiFi to the list of features on a press release would be a good selling point.
But there ARE technical reasons why adding RAW transfer over Wi-Fi wouldn't be a simple tweak of the existing app. Phones don't have a RAW viewer to begin with, so they'd have to code one from scratch or buy up one of the existing ones... Plus how do you select which one to transfer? That furthers complicates the process and the app.

Don't get me wrong, if they wanna add that as a quick and dirty hidden option I'd welcome it too, but I probably wouldn't use it much either. For quick sharing JPEG just makes more sense, and for RAW backups when I get in the car or to my hotel the OTG cable makes more sense because it's less of a battery drainer and much quicker (and can also be used with or without the camera in the chain).

Just shooting JPEG+RAW (if only for quick sharing) seems far simpler and there's very little downside besides a bit of (initially) wasted space. I think I'd rather have in camera RAW to JPEG processing like some Oly cameras do than Wi-Fi RAW transfers, tho having both would be great too. None of this is gonna be much of an attention grabber to the average buyer tho.
 
Outsourcing software development can be a nightmare, it'd be tricky for apps, let alone for whole firmware updates. I'm a tweaker by nature, and a computer engineer so I dabble a fair bit in programming, I've seen lots of wonderful things from the developer community at places like Xda. They often go as far as fixing lots of bugs that devices ship with or improving functionality when they're really motivated and efforts are concentrated behind one flagship device. I installed plenty of custom ROMs and kernels on the first few smartphones I had (my N5 is rooted but mostly stock).

However just as common as those scenarios are droves of buggy or unfinished apps, let alone the ROM projects that are abandoned due to lack of interest or lack of technical resources. No matter how much you wanna open up a device, the drivers and software for certain components is often proprietary and you can't distribute the code freely. Or do you think Olympus builds the Wi-Fi chip in their cameras? They don't even make the image sensors itself...

BTW, Sony already did the whole apps thing with the NEX line, and beyond a few paid apps (from Sony themselves) that just bring functionally that should've been built in (like an intervalometer), I didn't hear any accounts about what a revelation it was. Can't say what, maybe I'm wrong and there ARE some very clever NEX apps out there, but I rarely ever saw it touted as a benefit to the system. I'm all for open software development when it fits, but it's not a solution for all kinds of products.

I think there's potential for it in cameras, if anyone is better positioned to realize that it's Samsung... Their Android cameras have been very uninspiring tho, and not very open in the truest sense of the term.
 
The level of interest and development between a flagship device like a Galaxy S and the next tier down (any other Galaxy, or even a year old phone) is pretty huge btw. Just look at the number of threads between each at a place like Xda (each device model has it's own sub forum), developer interest can be fickle. Outsourcing firmware at a professional level would be disastrous for something that's just supposed to work and work right every time, and building in the underpinnings for an app ecosystem isn't as simple as some make it sound.

The easiest way and the way which would generate the most interest would be to build upon something like Android, as Samsung has tried, but that has huge repercussions towards the camera's processing and battery requirements as well as it's responsiveness etc etc. Plus it still doesn't guarantee you can really open up every aspect of the camera for experimentation or app development, you could surely do more of that than the little Samsung has done but there's lots of technical and logistic reasons not to do so... For starters, Oly doesn't have control over every (or maybe even most) of their components.

The more you open something up the easier it is to break or put into an unusable state, and people ALREADY complain about complexity of Oly's menus (that could surely be improved but it's a different subject), support costs would go up etc etc. I like tweaking and messing with my devices as much as the next geek, I love Android, there's a little Android decal on my car window... But that kinda model isn't fit for every device and market. I want my camera to just work, same with my DVR (probably why HTPCs never took), same with my car, etc.

Good connectivity is great IMO, and there's still room for improvement there, but the massive amount of money it'd take for any camera maker to completely rethink their software/firmware strategy would be better spent elsewhere (for M43 it should probably go towards better marketing).
 
But there ARE technical reasons why adding RAW transfer over Wi-Fi wouldn't be a simple tweak of the existing app. Phones don't have a RAW viewer to begin with, so they'd have to code one from scratch or buy up one of the existing ones... Plus how do you select which one to transfer? That furthers complicates the process and the app.
Raw files have a low resolution JPEG embedded in them. It's there for things like selecting images. Your phone would not need a raw viewer, it just has to pull out the JPEG by copying it byte for byte from the correct location in the raw file. You would not want to make a big print from the embedded JPEG but it is fine for previewing images

I do not like raw + JPEG mostly because it adds the step of deleting the JPEGs either before or after I import the raw files into Lightroom. I also do not entirely trust the Android file manager. Unlike file managers on computers it does not act like it was written to handle the concept of removable media. I still use my OTG cable but write protect the cards before I put them in the reader. Most likely paranoia on my part but I would rather transfer the files through WiFi while I am doing something else.
 
Independent developers aren't fairy dust, just because Oly publishes an open API for something doesn't mean they'll show up in droves.
While I think an independent developer could do a better you have a valid point. A better app for to replace the Panasonic image app would be very low volume and would have to compete with the completely free one from Panasonic. I am often amazed how bad free apps have to be before people will spend $5 to get one without ads that works really well.

I am not sure why you think transferring raw files is impractical. They are about 4 times larger but not everyone is a high volume shooter. Shooting raw a 16GB card is more than enough for a week long vacation in my case. I currently use a OTG cable and file manager but the process could be a lot simpler with an app to keep track of what files have already been backed up. I would trade longer transfer times for one less small item to keep track of. Whether or not I want to make that tradeoff should be my choice unless there is a technical reason that prevents it.

I get the impression right now these WiFi and the apps are regarded as pass/fail, that as long as the camera has WiFi how well it works does not matter. But it does matter. If camera companies do want to keep control of connectivity they need to start doing a better job of it. I already wrote a long rant in this thread about how I think they made location tracking clunkier than it needs to be. The remote control portion of the image app works pretty well for me but unless I start shooting JPEG the image transfer portion is useless. And the whole app has a sort of Windows 3.1 feel to it. As if "Meh, close enough" was not just the acceptance criteria but the design goal. WiFi and connectivity are increasingly important features that people consider while deciding what camera to buy. Having really good connectivity instead of just being able to add WiFi to the list of features on a press release would be a good selling point.
But there ARE technical reasons why adding RAW transfer over Wi-Fi wouldn't be a simple tweak of the existing app. Phones don't have a RAW viewer to begin with, so they'd have to code one from scratch or buy up one of the existing ones... Plus how do you select which one to transfer? That furthers complicates the process and the app.

Don't get me wrong, if they wanna add that as a quick and dirty hidden option I'd welcome it too, but I probably wouldn't use it much either. For quick sharing JPEG just makes more sense, and for RAW backups when I get in the car or to my hotel the OTG cable makes more sense because it's less of a battery drainer and much quicker (and can also be used with or without the camera in the chain).

Just shooting JPEG+RAW (if only for quick sharing) seems far simpler and there's very little downside besides a bit of (initially) wasted space. I think I'd rather have in camera RAW to JPEG processing like some Oly cameras do than Wi-Fi RAW transfers, tho having both would be great too. None of this is gonna be much of an attention grabber to the average buyer tho.
Well, you can send RAW over to IPADs with the Eye-fi system. And you could presumably use Adobe's apps to process them.

For me I often set my camera to small JPEG + RAW and have OLY's app send the jpegs to the IPAD or IPHONE. Then send it out from there.

Yes there is one more step to do. But hey, the wifi connection between OLY cameras has improved tremendously since its initial launch (I had a bout where it would connect to my large ipad but not ipad mini in one room, connect fine in the other...and this during my kid's birthday party...), the process is reasonably fast and you can further put the photos through whatever app / collate you want.

For true social network sharing the Samsungs are the way to go. My wife has laid her eyes upon a Samsung NX Mini; lets see how the experiment goes.

I have to send my RX100 off for that.
 

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