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Elephant in the room - It's all about the OS and connectivity.

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Hen3ry said:
…Apple is deliberately making it more iPhone/iPad-like. Why? That's where the new Mac computer buyers are coming from and/or users are sharing stuff across.

As a recalcitrant old codger, I am still lurking in my hole with OS X.6.8 on my Macbook Pro so I can run legacy apps, and I have a phone that is, oddly enough, a phone not a Dee-Vice! But as a marketer, I can see where they are heading and why.

And Maklike is dead right -- lots of people want that system look and feel on their cameras. I find the G6 just fine -- but those iPhone users would not, I fear!

Cheers, geoff
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tt321 said:
Anders W said:
That can surely be improved upon too for those who find it useful. I'm for the most part a VF man. Touch-screen EVF anyone? ;-)
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It's not as outlandish as it might sound. Even within M43 we have cameras that allow some use of the touch screen when you are using the VF, and the functionality provided is actually quite real and pragmatic.
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Examples?
 
Maklike Tier said:
I've been reading a lit of the forums recently, and in light of recent releases, my love of M43, and all things digital, aren't we missing something?

That being, the lessons of the tech sector, namely, that it's all about the content management and the GUI used to facilitate that content, not the hardware.

Since picking up my little EP3 a couple of years ago, the sticking point for me has really been the OS. Like all cameras, in the modern context it's rubbish. What really struck me like a ball to the head was Leica's new OS. So intuitive it's ridiculous. Yep, it's maybe too basic and 'phone-like', but where are new users coming from? Where are new photo enthusiasts coming from? Yeah, mobile phones.

And what do these new photographers expect when the decide they want to step up their photography and get into it? They want usability like their iPhone.

How is it that Leica has it first, and not Sony, or Panasonic or by beloved Olympus?

I really think the key to growing M43 is software based, not hardware. The lenses are mostly there, the bodies need a little bit of polishing (but the EM5 didnt win awards because it's rubbish) but they're mostly there....

The elephant in the room is that OS' and connectivity is in the dark ages compared to 'other things that have lenses attached to them'. The future of M43 is software.

Thoughts?
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This looks interesting and worthy of consideration. But I am not a computer technician, so I am having trouble following it. I find the exposition itself enigmatic, and in addition I don't understand some of your terminology. Could you repost it in English for those of us who are not computer technicians?

Krugman
 
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Maklike Tier said:
I've been reading a lit of the forums recently, and in light of recent releases, my love of M43, and all things digital, aren't we missing something?

That being, the lessons of the tech sector, namely, that it's all about the content management and the GUI used to facilitate that content, not the hardware.

Since picking up my little EP3 a couple of years ago, the sticking point for me has really been the OS. Like all cameras, in the modern context it's rubbish. What really struck me like a ball to the head was Leica's new OS. So intuitive it's ridiculous. Yep, it's maybe too basic and 'phone-like', but where are new users coming from? Where are new photo enthusiasts coming from? Yeah, mobile phones.

And what do these new photographers expect when the decide they want to step up their photography and get into it? They want usability like their iPhone.

How is it that Leica has it first, and not Sony, or Panasonic or by beloved Olympus?
Click to expand...
Extreme cost allows for higher R&D budgets.
Maklike Tier said:
I really think the key to growing M43 is software based, not hardware. The lenses are mostly there, the bodies need a little bit of polishing (but the EM5 didnt win awards because it's rubbish) but they're mostly there....

The elephant in the room is that OS' and connectivity is in the dark ages compared to 'other things that have lenses attached to them'. The future of M43 is software.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
iA and iA+ on Panasonic bodies creates excellent exposures. It could literally not be easier for a beginner.

WiFi on Panasonic bodies is pretty sophisticated these days. It is almost trivial to hook the cameras up to the local network and beyond ...

I don't find that I want the cameras to replace my phone or tablet ... but integrating easily is a good thing, and Panasonic seem to be well on their way. Not sure about other manufacturers, but it is inevitable.

What we want to avoid is bloating cameras with excessive duplication of phone features. One reason why GPS made a splash and then died ... much easier to do WiFi and use that to get location. Much better on battery life too ...
 
These phones already have touch screens and WiFi. Why not add the ability to go in to iPhone like editing tools when in "review" mode? This would have no effect on other controls and functionality.

Seriously, a Post to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, feature would be extremely popular along with a quick crop and quick modify (with a bunch of default modifications such as B&W, etc.).

Here is an example:

I took this last night and several people asked me to to send it to them or post it so they could forward it that minute. They were dismayed and very confused when I said I could do it later that night. They could not understand the delay and wanted to share it right then.

e2a38e06e20b418e976fac7d941218c8.jpg
 
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Maklike Tier said:
I've been reading a lit of the forums recently, and in light of recent releases, my love of M43, and all things digital, aren't we missing something?

That being, the lessons of the tech sector, namely, that it's all about the content management and the GUI used to facilitate that content, not the hardware.

Since picking up my little EP3 a couple of years ago, the sticking point for me has really been the OS. Like all cameras, in the modern context it's rubbish. What really struck me like a ball to the head was Leica's new OS. So intuitive it's ridiculous. Yep, it's maybe too basic and 'phone-like', but where are new users coming from? Where are new photo enthusiasts coming from? Yeah, mobile phones.

And what do these new photographers expect when the decide they want to step up their photography and get into it? They want usability like their iPhone.

How is it that Leica has it first, and not Sony, or Panasonic or by beloved Olympus?

I really think the key to growing M43 is software based, not hardware. The lenses are mostly there, the bodies need a little bit of polishing (but the EM5 didnt win awards because it's rubbish) but they're mostly there....

The elephant in the room is that OS' and connectivity is in the dark ages compared to 'other things that have lenses attached to them'. The future of M43 is software.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
My Polaroid SX-70, first sold in 1972, has a focus control, a control to lighten or darken the print, and a shutter release. It's one of the most fun cameras to take pictures with I can think of.

Polaroid SX-70 Original Advertisement

Most camera companies have lost their way. ... ;-)



10169937905_47ed6fe2cd_o.jpg


(PS: I really like my Olympus E-1 and E-M1 too. ;-))

--
Godfrey
 
Lab D said:
These phones already have touch screens and WiFi. Why not add the ability to go in to iPhone like editing tools when in "review" mode? This would have no effect on other controls and functionality.

Seriously, a Post to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, feature would be extremely popular along with a quick crop and quick modify (with a bunch of default modifications such as B&W, etc.).

Here is an example:

I took this last night and several people asked me to to send it to them or post it so they could forward it that minute. They were dismayed and very confused when I said I could do it later that night. They could not understand the delay and wanted to share it right then.

e2a38e06e20b418e976fac7d941218c8.jpg
Click to expand...
Very good case in point demonstrating the value of PP and mobile wireless data on the camera.

What would really open this up is the ability of the user to purchase and install the PP SW at will, and the ability of independent developers to develop PP and sharing SW for the camera platform.

--
Eric
 
I have experience in both smartphones and interchangeable lens cameras and let me tell you waiting a couple of seconds for the camera hardware to start up, very noticeable shutter lag when taking a photo and limited controls with a hobby where controls can make the difference between a good photo and a great photo is not something to look forward to.

If the camera has a good auto mode (on top of manual controls) and offers good connectivity options, you don't need any other OS. I find those Nokia Lumias with a camera-like manual controls a step in the right direction for smartphones, but the hardware is still slllllllloooooowwwwww.
 
Cameras these days are designed far too much for people who care about the process - almost secondary to the results. We care about what lenses we're using, what aperture, shutter speed, ISO values we have.

If camera makers want to attract more noobs into the fold, they need to approach this from a results focus - as distasteful as it may seem to us. The extent of physical controls should be reduced to two clearly labeled single-function dials and a flash button (plus shutter, video, and playback, I guess). Sadly, this might still be too much for some people to figure out:

- A dial that's labeled "background blur." Spin it one way to blur the background, spin it the other way to bring it into focus. If we want we can call it aperture priority and confuse the heck out of everybody else.

- A dial that's labeled "brightness." We can call it "EV Compensation" to sound special.

- A button for flash that clearly cycles auto/off/on/redeye. Nothing else.

- An on-screen button that toggles auto, night, macro.

Any more and I people get scared...
 
Maklike Tier said:
agentul said:
Maklike Tier said:
I think you're a bit confused. I never said what people want is either angry birds on their camera, nor a UI thats just a giant screen.
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but the Leica T is just a giant screen. ok, it has two unmarked dials, but you didn't talk about them you were praising their touch interface, which relies on the giant screen. also, when you're calling for better software for the platform, you're going to go down the route of Samsung, which has promised more "apps" (i hate this word) for their cameras, but didn't actually deliver much. or was that Sony? I forget. so it's been tried.
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I like the flow of information in the Leica interface, but I'm completely against having a camera that's just a giant screen. I don't come from the Apple school of haptics.
Maklike Tier said:
Maklike Tier said:
You're being absolutist in your thinking. Is the current UI/UX of cameras for all users at it's pinnacle? If the answer is no, can't we discuss whats possible, because the operations and controls of most cameras appear to me to have substantial room for improvement.
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you're calling for a dumbing down of cameras using gimmicky touch-only based controls......but if your idea of a "next best thing" is the Leica M, which is almost the iPhone of the cameras at this point, then you're arguing for dumping buttons, which have been proven over years to work well, for some shiny animated touch interface that's good to impress other people, but has serious drawbacks when you want to focus on just using the camera to take pictures.
Click to expand...
No no no. Read my posts. My idea of the 'next big thing' isn't the Leica T. I think it's a new direction in UI/UX, but its just the tip of the iceberg in terms of ideas that should be explored, but from my vantage point as a designer with a strong UX background, it puts into stark contrast how far behind UI/UX camera design is. I don't actually have any preconceived notions of what a camera is supposed to be, because it's clear that design of the user interface post-film hasn't evolved very much at all, so in light of the versatility and success of mobile devices (yes, the camera IS a communication device)
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i don't think it should be. maybe i'm old fashioned, but i don't feel the need to automatically upload everything i shoot on the internet.
Maklike Tier said:
it throws into stark contrast for me how backward camera design really is.
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ok, so let me get this straight, you want a new user interface for dedicated photo cameras, just because what we have now is "old"? what is it that you actually need your camera to do and no other camera can? that's where you should start from. asking for change just for the sake of change has a high chance of ending in a disaster - look at Windows 8. i believe that during the lifetime of any certain type of equipment, once it's reached a point of maturity changes are no longer beneficial. after all, do we need a new type of hammer?

i think that camera design has matured enough throughout the years, but smaller steps are still being made. the EVF is the next big thing for a lot of people still using OVFs. touch focus is still pretty new. however, these are features that, while nice, are not essential. they're good for differentiating between two cameras, but there's no point in comparing an ILC with a smartphone on the interface alone. for starters, you just can't fit a camera with a 100-300mm lens in your pocket. that's where you lose the smartphone crowd, even before they get to using anything beyond iA.

what i'm trying to get at is that the interface will compel people to change one device with another within the same family, but not across different classes. i might find it that a freight truck has an awesome dashboard, but i won't buy one instead of a car because of this.
Maklike Tier said:
Heck, it's completely feasable that the camera of the future doesn't even have a screen - you never take your eye off the scene you're shooting or your hands off the buttons to compose the scene or adjust the camera.
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and then how do you view your photos? i think the main reason cameras started to have screens was to be able to review your photos without the need of a second device. the camera you're describing might be something like Google Glass, and even that device has some real world adoption problems.

all this talk reminds me of the time the Segway was launched, and people were very excited about how it will change the way we see personal transportation. that didn't turn out as expected.

then we have smart tvs trying to redefine what the tv is. frankly, i'm not impressed.

i suspect that this whole discussion stems from a dissatisfaction with the olympus menus. other cameras are better at this.
 
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aliasfox said:
Cameras these days are designed far too much for people who care about the process - almost secondary to the results. We care about what lenses we're using, what aperture, shutter speed, ISO values we have.

If camera makers want to attract more noobs into the fold, they need to approach this from a results focus - as distasteful as it may seem to us. The extent of physical controls should be reduced to two clearly labeled single-function dials and a flash button (plus shutter, video, and playback, I guess). Sadly, this might still be too much for some people to figure out:

- A dial that's labeled "background blur." Spin it one way to blur the background, spin it the other way to bring it into focus. If we want we can call it aperture priority and confuse the heck out of everybody else.

- A dial that's labeled "brightness." We can call it "EV Compensation" to sound special.

- A button for flash that clearly cycles auto/off/on/redeye. Nothing else.

- An on-screen button that toggles auto, night, macro.

Any more and I people get scared...
Click to expand...
The Casio pocket cameras in the house approach this simplicity (and also so do the Olys) with Scene Modes so the user selects a scene for what photo he is about to take - so no need for any decisions about camera controls.

Again that's taken a step further with Casio super auto modes and Oly iAuto modes where the camera tries to work out what the heck scene you are taking and invokes the specific mode or failing to understand what you are trying to take just uses P mode.

So no need even for basic beginner controls, just set to iAuto for Oly and Premium Auto Pro dial position for the Casio (and in both cases take your chances).

At least Casio tells you exactly what the camera does in each scene mode, called Best Shots by Casio, 35 listed in my Casio ZR1000 http://support.casio.com/en/support/download_files/en/001/faq_pdf/ZR1000/EX_ZR1000_BS_E.pdf

With Casio I can make up to 12 new Custom Modes and store them or access them with PC and manipulate with a cheap third party program. Earlier Casios had up to 999 custom mode ability. Olympus is totally in the caveman era with only 4 MySets and no way to name or store/restore them.

Naturally I prefer to use the Olympus though in a much more basic A mode way, never use the scene modes or iAuto but would love more MySets as I use them 100% of the time to keep my various preferred A mode settings safe.

Cameras used in that most simple iAuto way are really like the old Box Brownie concept, "you press the button, we do the rest". The rest of use just love to fiddle with controls and make our own mistakes :-(

Regards.... Guy
 
Some people in this thread don't see the need for their phones to have "apps", but actually it is no different to interchangeable lenses i.e. interchangeable software to fit your particular needs.

Imagine being able to purchase different software for different applications, and choose which apps or plug-ins to run:
  • Alternative menu systems (prefer the Nikon system? download the app that emulates it)
  • The DxoMark lens correction app that works with non-m43 lenses / adapted lenses
  • The defishing app for fish-eye users - see it live in the viewfinder
  • The Silver Efex Pro app that lets you apply your favorite B&W settings (and see them in the viewfinder)
  • An actual Facebook app for sharing seamlessly with tags and comments
  • Extra Art Filters, or video filters / transitions
  • Add different video codecs and frame rates
  • Programmable time lapse controllers
  • Motion detector triggers
  • Instead of waiting for firmware updates, apps would be released to solve common problems or provide new features for older camera models
  • Etc, etc, etc
The list is endless, and as the smartphones show it inspires brand loyalty and is a great source of income for the manufacturers.

And if the existing camera manufacturers fail to offer this, then watch out. Samsung has already released its first Android camera. If this seems insignificant, consider how many people you knew who used Samsung phones back before smartphones. Back then it was all Nokia, Sony Ericsson & Blackberry, but they have all been decimated in a few short years by the arrival of the iPhone.
 
Im very happy with my GX7's ability to send my shots to my phone. I don't need a connection all the time, when im shooting im shooting not surfing the web. Later, i may PP, or simply upload a file to email, ect. I personally don't need or want to pay for more connectivity, but i do want my current camera functions to get better on the hardware side. Faster AF, better ISO performance, DR, ect. I may not notice these improvements all the time, but they will never hurt my work.

There is only so much "connectivity" one can manage until the focus shifts from photography to social mingling. I prefer to stick to photography.
 
Maklike Tier said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Re Leica's new OS: Why no Leica in your list of cameras?

Personally I prefer in-lens IS, as with Nikon, Canon and Panasonic. Works very well for me.
 
aliasfox said:
Cameras these days are designed far too much for people who care about the process - almost secondary to the results. We care about what lenses we're using, what aperture, shutter speed, ISO values we have.

If camera makers want to attract more noobs into the fold, they need to approach this from a results focus - as distasteful as it may seem to us. The extent of physical controls should be reduced to two clearly labeled single-function dials and a flash button (plus shutter, video, and playback, I guess). Sadly, this might still be too much for some people to figure out:

- A dial that's labeled "background blur." Spin it one way to blur the background, spin it the other way to bring it into focus. If we want we can call it aperture priority and confuse the heck out of everybody else.

- A dial that's labeled "brightness." We can call it "EV Compensation" to sound special.

- A button for flash that clearly cycles auto/off/on/redeye. Nothing else.

- An on-screen button that toggles auto, night, macro.

Any more and I people get scared...
Click to expand...
Well...how about a camera that has three control dials, and the top of each dial is a circular LCD screen that shows what each dial is. You can pre-program them, or adjust them manually on the fly.

For noobs or those going from phones, they could even be assigned names that are less alienating, as you suggest.

I'm not advocating a dumbing down however. I just don't see why a camera can't be both beginner and enthusiast, because the only thing that defines that really is the controls, and if the controls (both actual and virtual) are infinitely controllable, the camera can be anything.

The issue I see holding us back, is that we have this tentative marriage of traditional film based controls and digital processing....as well as the changing ways that images are stored, modified, and communicated.

Nobody has even vaguely got that matrix right yet.
 
TheManWhoWas said:
Some people in this thread don't see the need for their phones to have "apps", but actually it is no different to interchangeable lenses i.e. interchangeable software to fit your particular needs.

Imagine being able to purchase different software for different applications, and choose which apps or plug-ins to run:
  • Alternative menu systems (prefer the Nikon system? download the app that emulates it)
  • The DxoMark lens correction app that works with non-m43 lenses / adapted lenses
  • The defishing app for fish-eye users - see it live in the viewfinder
  • The Silver Efex Pro app that lets you apply your favorite B&W settings (and see them in the viewfinder)
  • An actual Facebook app for sharing seamlessly with tags and comments
  • Extra Art Filters, or video filters / transitions
  • Add different video codecs and frame rates
  • Programmable time lapse controllers
  • Motion detector triggers
  • Instead of waiting for firmware updates, apps would be released to solve common problems or provide new features for older camera models
  • Etc, etc, etc
The list is endless, and as the smartphones show it inspires brand loyalty and is a great source of income for the manufacturers.

And if the existing camera manufacturers fail to offer this, then watch out. Samsung has already released its first Android camera. If this seems insignificant, consider how many people you knew who used Samsung phones back before smartphones. Back then it was all Nokia, Sony Ericsson & Blackberry, but they have all been decimated in a few short years by the arrival of the iPhone.
Click to expand...
Yep, great out-of-the-box thinking. You do start running into the physical limits at the current stage of technological development though. I don't think you'd want to professionally develop images in-camera, but it might be enough for web.

I think wireless and cloud computing is vital for the future of photography. For example, when I go travelling, I don't want to have to pull a memory card out of my camera to access my files, modify, store and share them. I want to be able to boot up any tablet or computer and they're all there, without me having to do anything. The SD card should just be for back up.
 
It's true that the modern smart phone is a great invention, much better than the old fashioned buttons and menus.

But, it's also true that the touch screen interface used in modern cars is pretty much a disaster, especially while driving.

One conclusion might be that while Apple knows good software, Ford and BMW don't. Another conclusion might be that the interface for a phone is far different from one in a moving vehicle where you can't take your eyes off the road.

So, the bottom line question might be whether a high end camera is more like a cell phone, or more like a car. I'm thinking it's more like the car, because an experienced photographer will not take their eyes off their subject as they adjust things. Buttons and knobs work better in a car, and in a high end camera. But sure, in a consumer camera, a smart touch screen interface might be easier for the average person.
 
ironcam said:
Hen3ry said:
…Apple is deliberately making it more iPhone/iPad-like. Why? That's where the new Mac computer buyers are coming from and/or users are sharing stuff across.

As a recalcitrant old codger, I am still lurking in my hole with OS X.6.8 on my Macbook Pro so I can run legacy apps, and I have a phone that is, oddly enough, a phone not a Dee-Vice! But as a marketer, I can see where they are heading and why.

And Maklike is dead right -- lots of people want that system look and feel on their cameras. I find the G6 just fine -- but those iPhone users would not, I fear.
Click to expand...
I think it is a mistake to make a camera look like a phone. You should design the gui and camera controls from the ground up.
Click to expand...
Nobody designs anything from the ground up. Everyone relies on what went before and just adds or subtracts stuff.
ironcam said:
It might operate like a smartphone, but that would be coincidence.
Click to expand...
Nah, it would be because that is the way the designers' heads work.
ironcam said:
The reason why smartphones and tablets work so well nowadays is because the operating systems were specifically designed for the devices. You can't put Vista on tablet like MS was doing.
Click to expand...
Maybe MS fouled up because Vista wasn't so great anyway. Note that Apple has gone the other way around -- it is putting the iPhone style interface on the computer, not vice versa.

Cheers, geoff
 
agentul said:
other than some UI changes, what other "software" would be needed? angry birds? skype? weather? why dump more resources into developing gimmicky eye candy, when the money would be better spent on solving real problems like shutter shock or making the proper software corrections for panasonic lenses on olympus cameras, so that 100% compatibility is reached?
Click to expand...
Software that lets me:

Customize the movie record button

Have auto ISO in manual mode + exposure comp (or TAv mode or whatever you want to call it)

Write DNG files instead of some stupid redundant proprietary raw format

Arbitrarily set minimum shutter speed in A mode with auto ISO

Put AF assist light in the quick menu

Provide a way to adjust manual focus on lenses like the 12-32 for cameras that the camera companies pretend no longer exist.

Implement workarounds for shutter shock issues instead of waiting a year for the company to get around to doing so

Upload pictures over wifi to my computer or phone via FTP or some standard file transfer protocol instead of only with some stupid proprietary app on the phone or computer.

... just what I can think of off the top of my head ...
agentul said:
you take the card out of the camera and put it in the computer. any computer. you don't even need to install the software that comes with the camera anymore. i'd say that connectivity is a lot better than if dedicated cables and drivers were to be required. those are actually dark ages.

when you have a product that's good enough so that there's no need to upgrade every other year, ...
Click to expand...
Well, maybe when such a product actually exists...
 
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