Nikon 80-400mm af-s new version seem to have a continuous focus problem

theoldbull · May 11, 2014

I have had this lens for half a year, an have most of the time been very happy with it. But I have had many moving objects photos out of focus. So I decided to test it the other day on my D7100. Camera in AF-C mode 21 points, focus tracking with lock on set to normal. Even if you focused on a stationary object the focus motor moved to and from in small steps, which generated blur. If you focus on a moving object many pictures are not sharp.

I have now handed in the lens to Nikon service for adjustment.

Most review do not mention this problem but the review in Photography do:

Cited from the review in Phtography life: http://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-80-400mm-vr/2:"However, this lens has one serious flaw, which can get annoying very quickly – it has the same AF hesitation or “chatter” as some other AF-S zoom lenses, like the Nikon 70-300mm VR. I first noticed this when photographing my son in a park at a long distance zoomed all the way to 400mm. The autofocus motor went back and forth in small steps continuously for as long as I half-pressed the shutter release button. It was a bright day, so this was not like this problem was happening only in low light. I then took the lens to photograph birds and the same thing happened again, pretty much every time when AF was engaged. What does this AF hesitation look like? "

I this a general problem or just a problem with some specific samples?

Ferguson · May 11, 2014

Mine clicks and clacks loudly (on a D800 and D4) but I find it to be noise not a difference in focus. All my lenses, even on pretty stationary objects, tend to continuously make minor focus adjustments on those two cameras moreso than older ones. And I think the D7100 is from the same general release age.

I think Nikon took some of the hysteresis out of their algorithms, because I also think these newer bodies are less precise than the old ones. I think they traded precision for accuracy, meaning sometimes they just plain miss. But when they hit, they are very accurate.

I've been pleased, despite the noise, with the 80-400. It focuses a bit slower than some of the pro alternatives but not significantly so, and keeps up to sports usage quite nicely (but only in the daytime, it's not a night time lens). I used it just yesterday, keeping it on a second body for soccer while the 400/2.8 + 1.4TC was on the other. I didn't notice significantly more missed shots with it.

--

Comments welcomed on photos: http://www.captivephotons.com

Leonard Shepherd · May 12, 2014

theoldbull said:
Even if you focused on a stationary object the focus motor moved to and from in small steps, which generated blur.

Without sample images it is impossible to comment with confidence.

What you describe is exactly what any Nikon DSLR can do if the camera AF cannot detect enough good quality detail to acquire focus.

AF does not work good with everything.

Sample images would have helped.

AZ Steve · May 12, 2014

Could we stick to one thread on this "problem" please?

dwa1 · May 12, 2014

theoldbull said:
I have had this lens for half a year, an have most of the time been very happy with it. But I have had many moving objects photos out of focus. So I decided to test it the other day on my D7100. Camera in AF-C mode 21 points, focus tracking with lock on set to normal. Even if you focused on a stationary object the focus motor moved to and from in small steps, which generated blur. If you focus on a moving object many pictures are not sharp.

I have now handed in the lens to Nikon service for adjustment.

Most review do not mention this problem but the review in Photography do:

Cited from the review in Phtography life: http://photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-80-400mm-vr/2:"However, this lens has one serious flaw, which can get annoying very quickly – it has the same AF hesitation or “chatter” as some other AF-S zoom lenses, like the Nikon 70-300mm VR. I first noticed this when photographing my son in a park at a long distance zoomed all the way to 400mm. The autofocus motor went back and forth in small steps continuously for as long as I half-pressed the shutter release button. It was a bright day, so this was not like this problem was happening only in low light. I then took the lens to photograph birds and the same thing happened again, pretty much every time when AF was engaged. What does this AF hesitation look like? "

I this a general problem or just a problem with some specific samples?

Tripod or handheld?

VR On or Off?

fwiw... I notice that with AF-C and handheld shooting the AF system seems to work as you describe. This is with all my lenses - Nikon, Sigma, Tamron. I have been using AF-C much more these days with my D7100 because it is much easier to quickly switch from Single Point to 9 or 21 points when shooting widllife.

Wayne

theoldbull · May 12, 2014

Thank you all for good and productive replies. I did not attach pictures but linked to a review by Photographics Life that came to the same conclusion as I did. In that review they documented the problem with two pictures (See link ).

I have had the 200-400mm F:4 lens before and have never had any problems with that lens on my D300. Often switching fra single to continuous focusing for wildlife and birds.

I have sent the camera (D7100) and the lens to Nikon for repair, and have received it back today. They have repaired and adjusting the focusing mechanism in the camera. It has improved, but have not completely gone away. So it will still now and then hunt for focus i small steps too and from the focusing point.

I can live with it now as it is a very good and very sharp lens.

Many greetings Peter

Brandon birder · May 13, 2014

theoldbull said:
Thank you all for good and productive replies. I did not attach pictures but linked to a review by Photographics Life that came to the same conclusion as I did. In that review they documented the problem with two pictures (See link ).

I have had the 200-400mm F:4 lens before and have never had any problems with that lens on my D300. Often switching fra single to continuous focusing for wildlife and birds.

I have sent the camera (D7100) and the lens to Nikon for repair, and have received it back today. They have repaired and adjusting the focusing mechanism in the camera. It has improved, but have not completely gone away. So it will still now and then hunt for focus i small steps too and from the focusing point.

I can live with it now as it is a very good and very sharp lens.

Many greetings Peter

That's really odd as with my D7100 and 80-400 if light is at least fair it will autofocus accurately for any bird in flight that is larger than a single focus point. I did notice when I was shooting fast flying sea birds on the Farne Islands last year that the hit rate improved the longer I tracked the birds in and this would fit with the understood working of dynamic focus. There is a reasonable sample of the sorts of birds I was shooting in my FlickR D7100 gallery below. I guess what I am saying is that the combo can do better than you have experienced. btw the the Farne island shots were with VR off and mainly single point dynamic AF.

Leonard Shepherd · May 15, 2014

theoldbull said:
Thank you all for good and productive replies. I did not attach pictures but linked to a review by Photographics Life that came to the same conclusion as I did. In that review they documented the problem with two pictures (See link ).

It helps if you learn to review a reviewer!

The link appears to have nil credibility.

It seems the reviewer is suggesting AF has trouble with a girl in a white dress with no contrast in the dress, and with a white rose with very little contrast.

Sorry - Nikon has said with the instructions with every DSLR they have made AF may not work well with these types of subject.

Ignoring that the link appears to be from an in part inept photography, most photographers able to afford an 80-400 have learned when AF works well, and which types of subjects can sometimes cause some AF issues.

--
Leonard Shepherd
Producing good quality photographs, or being good at sport or art, involves a little more than buying appropriate equipment. Practice, some learning and perhaps natural talent often play a bigger role than the equipment in your hands.

Dr Bob · May 15, 2014

Leonard Shepherd said:
theoldbull said:

Thank you all for good and productive replies. I did not attach pictures but linked to a review by Photographics Life that came to the same conclusion as I did. In that review they documented the problem with two pictures (See link ).

Click to expand...

It helps if you learn to review a reviewer!

The link appears to have nil credibility.

It seems the reviewer is suggesting AF has trouble with a girl in a white dress with no contrast in the dress, and with a white rose with very little contrast.

Sorry - Nikon has said with the instructions with every DSLR they have made AF may not work well with these types of subject.

Ignoring that the link appears to be from an in part inept photography, most photographers able to afford an 80-400 have learned when AF works well, and which types of subjects can sometimes cause some AF issues.

Leonard Shepherd · May 18, 2014

Dr Bob said:
I would really doubt that the OP's problem relates to inapproriate AF targets. Cameras today have to be able to perform in the field and focus on real things. If you go through my web site you will see many, many shots of small brown birds that do not conform to Nikon's 'instructions'. My 80-400G works perfectly on some very poor targets and rarely fails. If it only worked on targets that were similar to your recommendations, I would have sent it back long ago.

Sorry but you are not being realistic about the OP and inappropriate AF targets?

Having had a look at the first 4 pages of your images in your link all your bird shots have the sort of detail where I would expect AF to perform well.

Nikon has said for the entire 15 years I have been using Nikon phase detect does not work well with everything, though on the plus side current AF works well in much lower contraster with much smaller targets than my first F100's

Last month I saw 18 AF "complaint" images on this forum and so far 7 this month where Nikon say (and I suspect you would agree) an experienced photographer would not expect AF to work good.

I have not seen any images in the period with the quality of AF detail your images have

We both agree a sample image would help. If the subject detail is similar to the 18 I looked in in April and 7 this month then retesting with decent subject detail is likely to confirm no focus problem.

If subject detail was as good as in your pictures (which "complainers" seem unable to acheive) then I agree there would not be an issue with an inappropriate AF target.

Photofunster · May 20, 2014

I photographed an Indian Sikh religious birthday celebration/parade on Sunday, it was slightly overcast but pleasantly a warm clear and sunny afternoon.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Official-Nagar-Kirtan-Sikh-Parade-of-Edmonton/104753272902889

Using my 80-400mm predominantly all through the event, it performed flawlessly, never failed to lock on the target and focus was always immediate, no hesitation or noise, just zoom and focus.

What distinct pleasure using such an exsquisite setup. D800 ~ AF-S 80-400mm.

To test its accuracy, I tried to manually focus on several subjects just to check, yet it was already Dead on Target.

Chas

--
D800, AF-S NIKKOR 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6 G ED VR, B+W Clear MRC 77mm, AF-S NIKKOR 24-120mm f/4 G ED VR, Sigma DG UV 77mm,
SB-910, WG-AS3, ME-1, Lexar Professional 600x 64GB SDXC UHS-I 90MB/s*, 400x 32GB SDHC UHS-l 60MB/s*
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Lowepro S&F Deluxe Technical Belt and Harness~Pouch 60 AW 50 AW & 10, S&F Toploader 70 AW, LC 11x26cm
Nikon FE, NIKKOR 2-20mm f/1.8, OPTEX UV 52mm, Viivitar Zoom 285,
Kodacolor VR 1000 CF 135-24 EXP DX 35mm, rePLAY XD 1080P

theoldbull · May 23, 2014

I agree with all that the lens in single servo mode (AF-S) focuses fantastic. No problems. Absolutely fine.

But try to focus on a stationary object in continuous focusing mode. The focusing will "chatter" moving i small steps to an from the focusing point. Those small steps from the servo motor can generate blurr at least with my camera (D7100)

I had a 200-400mm on a D300 camera and that never happened doing wildlife photography in Southern Africa for 6 years.

I would appreciate if somebody could try to replicate my findings and not just try to shoot down the messenger. As I wrote I am not sure if the problem is my camera or the lens.

So

Put the lens on the camera (preferably a D7100)
zoom to 400 mm
put the camera i continuous servo (AF-C) mode21 points
try focus on some stationary points

My set will find the focus quickly but will immediately start "chatter" moving the focus in small steps around the focus point.

Ferguson · May 23, 2014

theoldbull said:
My set will find the focus quickly but will immediately start "chatter" moving the focus in small steps around the focus point.

I didn't try to shoot the messenger, I agree there's a degree of hunting on newer Nikon bodies not noticable on older ones.

Out of curiosity I just tried your request on a D800 and D4 with the 80-400G to refresh my memory (and it did need refreshing, I remembered the clicking and clacking but thought it was more VR related, it's focus).

It hunts. Not always -- if I get a good, high-contrast, unambiguous target, it will lock and stay. As the target gets less suitable it hunts more. Real world targets are not good, high-contrast, unambiguous targets.

I think the newer bodies hunt more than the old. I do not think the 80-400 hunts more than other lenses (I have quite a few in that range), when you allow for the F5.6 vs wide apertures.

I absolutely think the 80-400 is more noticeable as it clacks and clangs as it focuses like something out of a steam punk movie. So you NOTICE it more. If you aren't looking at the dot on some other lenses, you don't really notice the continual small adjustments, this one announces itself.

Bear in mind also that the 80-400G is at the edge of what most bodies will focus (F5.6). Not sure on the D7100, but few bodies will focus below that. So if you're comparing to something like a 70-200 or especially the super teles, their 2-3 stops additional stops are going to provide additional focusing "leverage" (contrary to popular opinion it is not about the light that comes in so much as the angle of incidence on the phase detectors from the smaller aperture). The point being you should expect it to be at the worse end of the "how well can it grab any given target" and grabbing it at 400mm is harder (same principle as aperture) than 80mm.

Despite my rude comments above, it is a very good lens, I am glad I bought it, I use it INSTEAD Of the 200-400/F4 I had because I think it's about as sharp and much more convenient (I have a 400/2.8 for nighttime). I'm not shooting video(audio) so the clacking doesn't bother me.

But I absolutely agree it's there, and this lens calls attention to it. Try the lens on a D300 for example, and I think you'll find it hunts much less. I think that's just how the newer AF systems work.

David Garth · May 23, 2014

Leonard Shepherd said:
It helps if you learn to review a reviewer!

The link appears to have nil credibility.

I agree with your first advice to review the reviewer.

Based on reviewing some of your more than 8,000 posts, I'd say that Nasim Mansurov-and his Photography Life website have a lot more credibility than you do.

David Garth

pe1125 · May 23, 2014

I got the AF-S 80-400mm during the sale earlier this year and use it exclusively on a D7100. For the last few months I have been using the front preview button as a focus-on control in AF-C almost exclusively. While I've had trouble with VR oscillations in my first copy and VR smearing in my second copy (pretty much taken care of by a recent trip to Nikon service), I have not experienced any focus chatter with lens/camera combination at 400mm or anyother time. Several thousand frames so far with that combo. Just my observations to add to the survey.

Peter

Roy Kikuta · May 23, 2014

Ferguson said:
theoldbull said:

My set will find the focus quickly but will immediately start "chatter" moving the focus in small steps around the focus point.

Click to expand...

I didn't try to shoot the messenger, I agree there's a degree of hunting on newer Nikon bodies not noticable on older ones.

Out of curiosity I just tried your request on a D800 and D4 with the 80-400G to refresh my memory (and it did need refreshing, I remembered the clicking and clacking but thought it was more VR related, it's focus).

It hunts. Not always -- if I get a good, high-contrast, unambiguous target, it will lock and stay. As the target gets less suitable it hunts more. Real world targets are not good, high-contrast, unambiguous targets.

I think the newer bodies hunt more than the old. I do not think the 80-400 hunts more than other lenses (I have quite a few in that range), when you allow for the F5.6 vs wide apertures.

I absolutely think the 80-400 is more noticeable as it clacks and clangs as it focuses like something out of a steam punk movie. So you NOTICE it more. If you aren't looking at the dot on some other lenses, you don't really notice the continual small adjustments, this one announces itself.

Bear in mind also that the 80-400G is at the edge of what most bodies will focus (F5.6). Not sure on the D7100, but few bodies will focus below that. So if you're comparing to something like a 70-200 or especially the super teles, their 2-3 stops additional stops are going to provide additional focusing "leverage" (contrary to popular opinion it is not about the light that comes in so much as the angle of incidence on the phase detectors from the smaller aperture). The point being you should expect it to be at the worse end of the "how well can it grab any given target" and grabbing it at 400mm is harder (same principle as aperture) than 80mm.

Despite my rude comments above, it is a very good lens, I am glad I bought it, I use it INSTEAD Of the 200-400/F4 I had because I think it's about as sharp and much more convenient (I have a 400/2.8 for nighttime). I'm not shooting video(audio) so the clacking doesn't bother me.

But I absolutely agree it's there, and this lens calls attention to it. Try the lens on a D300 for example, and I think you'll find it hunts much less. I think that's just how the newer AF systems work.

S Majumder · Aug 25, 2016

theoldbull said:
Even if you focused on a stationary object the focus motor moved to and from in small steps, which generated blur. If you focus on a moving object many pictures are not sharp.

Hi, I am new to this forum.

I have had similar problems with the Nikon D7000 and AF-S 300mm F/4D non VR combo.., more so on attaching the Nikon 1.4 TC II E. I usually use AF-C Single point for birds that have some movement ( hence not suitable for shooting in AF-S ).

However, even when they are somewhat stationary, on using AF-C , I have encountered significant 'chattering'. The slightest camera movement makes it worse. On shooting small burst sequences ( I don't use back button af ) , the problem is even more pronounced.

I have uploaded some photographs here. This is one of several instances. (100% crops)

focus was on the eye.

These were shot at the same time. 420mm ( 300 F/4D + 1.4 TC ) ..1/3200, F/9, AF-C Single point for all. Camera was on a stable platform.

The first one is in Focus.

But gradually, the camera started to make focus adjustments in small steps leading to somewhat blurry images ( not that sharp as the first one ).

The 3rd one in the sequence is somewhat blurry.

Please let me know what you have done to counter this issue. I had used a Nikon D90 with the Nikkor 70-300 VR IF-ED before with no issue.

Thank you very much. Regards.

S Majumder

Leonard Shepherd · Aug 27, 2016

S Majumder said:
even when they are somewhat stationary, on using AF-C , I have encountered significant 'chattering'. The slightest camera movement makes it worse. On shooting small burst sequences ( I don't use back button af ) , the problem is even more pronounced.

If you switch to AF-A or AF-S (takes under 2 seconds with most recent cameras to your eye) the "chattering" stops

The "chattering" you describe is accompanied by a distinct noise on the 200-400 first version, less so on the 300 VR first version and is about silent with the 80-400 G, 200-500 or 300 PF.

Why can it happen; usually only in AF-C?

By way of background all the viewfinder af points in each column of vertical af points (camera in landscape position) in recent Nikons use a single long af detection line; as demonstrated a while back on this forum using an actual D300 AF module.

The selected focus point (assuming "auto AF" is not being use) uses an appropriate segment on the long af detection line.

With a black line on a white wall AF-S can generally detect the black line to just outside the boundary of the selected AF point. AF-C can generally detect the black line to just outside the boundary of the next af point. AF-C clearly uses longer segments of the in camera detection lines than AF-S.

The intention of AF-C is to measure the distance a subject moves forward or backward from where first detected to enable focus tracking to work.

I cannot find a Nikon explanation as to why AF-C uses longer detection lines than AF-S. I assume it is to assist passing focus from one viewfinder af point to another during focus tracking.

When you focus in close on a birds head using AF-S, focus is on the "best" AF target on the head - thats it - job done

- unless the bird moves its head while you have first pressure on the shutter

In AF-C when the (longer) detection line is more likely to include detail at different distances. This is often common with a birds head type subject.

AF-C seems able to confuse the curves on a birds neck/head at slightly different focus distances as being the equivalent of subject movement - and then the lens "chatters". I find chatter is more likely if the lens is not held 100% still.

From my lounge window I can use AF-C with a long lens to focus close on the curved surface of a rose and can the chatter you describe. The chance of getting chatter goes down a little with VR on, more so on a good tripod, and is eliminated switching to AF-S or AF-A.

On a more distant beech head where all leaves are parallel to the sensor I find it near impossible to induce chatter in AF-C.

I hope this helps you understand what seems to be going on and to come up with workarounds that work best for you.

With the bird parallel to the sensor focus on the birds wing may avoid chatter in AF-C - but is unlikely to get the eye as sharp as it could be. If you are sure the bird is at rest AF-S focus on the birds eye can work better than AF-C.

Digressing it seems AF-A needs a distinct change in focus distance before the camera re-focuses, unlike AF-C which constantly responds to slight changes.

--
Leonard Shepherd
You can buy kit. The rest is mainly down to you.
The more you practice, as with a musical instrument, the better you are likely to become.

Leonard Shepherd · Aug 28, 2016

Leonard Shepherd said:
From my lounge window I can use AF-C with a long lens to focus close on the curved surface of a rose and can the chatter you describe. The chance of getting chatter goes down a little with VR on, more so on a good tripod, and is eliminated switching to AF-S or AF-A.

[ATTACH alt="Type of image which can induce "chatter" using AF-C"]650850[/ATTACH]
Type of image which can induce "chatter" using AF-C

The "chatter" is more likely in AF-C if a rose is moving in the breeze. It is also more likely with DX (to D7200) than FX (to D810), presumable because the in camera AF lines are longer relative to the angle of view using DX.

The issue is difficult to induce with the D500, presumably because the individual detection points (3 times as many as D7200/D810) are much smaller in size than in earlier camera bodies.

As I mentioned earlier there is no chatter in AF-A or AF-S.

--
Leonard Shepherd
You can buy kit. The rest is mainly down to you.
The more you practice, as with a musical instrument, the better you are likely to become.

S Majumder · Sep 25, 2016

Dear Sir,

Heartfelt thanks for your in-depth explanation of the topic. Absolutely spot on.

Warm regards.

Nikon 80-400mm af-s new version seem to have a continuous focus problem

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