Elephant in the room - It's all about the OS and connectivity.

Wifi has become the essential item in any camera's OS, but the implementation is just terrible. On the E-M1, it takes at least five steps to connect the camera with an IOS device and then you have something only half-workable. You can't view on both the camera and the IOS device. The camera's controls are frozen and you can't access the menus. And then, just when you think you've got it going, the connection drops and you have to start over. A good idea gone very bad.

Another sticking point with me is the touch screen. Yes, I can touch to select something in the super control panel. And that's all. I then have to revert to using dials to change the settings. No more touch screen.

Sheesh!
 
Wifi has become the essential item in any camera's OS, but the implementation is just terrible. On the E-M1, it takes at least five steps to connect the camera with an IOS device and then you have something only half-workable. You can't view on both the camera and the IOS device. The camera's controls are frozen and you can't access the menus. And then, just when you think you've got it going, the connection drops and you have to start over. A good idea gone very bad.
Yes, that can certainly be improved upon. Still nice to have it though. Looking forward to the "remote shutter" mode that isn't available on the E-M1 yet but will reportedly become available with the new FW due in a day or two. That lets you use the phone instead of an ordinary remote release, while still having direct access to all the cameras function. Although setting up the connection is not as easy as it could and should be, it's still easier and faster than digging for your remote (if at all you have it with you) and getting it connected.
Another sticking point with me is the touch screen. Yes, I can touch to select something in the super control panel. And that's all. I then have to revert to using dials to change the settings. No more touch screen.
That can surely be improved upon too for those who find it useful. I'm for the most part a VF man. Touch-screen EVF anyone? ;-)
 
There have been a number of comments in this thread (and this forum) to the effect of "why would you want to add a phone to camera". In one ense this is quite true - There's little to be gained by adding the ability to make voice calls tp or from your phone.

However IMO its the other parts of smart phones (not the voice part) that could add a lot of value to tomorrows camera platform.

The key functions IMO are mobile wireless data (e.g. LTE) and the ability for the user to add SW applications to the camera platform.

Today's cameras such as the GM1, EM5 etc are controlled and managed by a computer, just as complex and powerful as those running smart phones and tablets. A user should be able to say something like "well I like that new app that allows me to to combine WB bracketing and exposure bracketing and trigger the sequence from movement detected in live view" spend $50 in the camera app store and install it on his camera.

The M43 group might do well to establish a common API (application programming interface) to allow developers to write apps for smart cameras - the M43 standard probably drives enough common engineering that a common API is possible.

With this kind of capability, a smart camera could be configured as a traditional camera to please the Luddite-conservatives-purist crowd - just a few buttons and menu items to control the fundamentals - the ex Pro-DSLR types could have package that includes a back focus button - the GAS crowd would of course buy every application available.

Quite likely that companies like Adobe, Topaz, Google, Dxo would find this an enticing opprtunity and show up with some interesting stuff, and the independents would likely show up some inetersting ideas (and some trash)

With a high speed wireless data connection, a user would be able to upload his photos and videos directly to his NAS, or cloud sites like Picassa, Flicker and Zenfolio. Not only would this serve as useful backup, in today's society the ability to share images quickly commands a premium.

--

Eric
 
I strongly disagree. Every task needs a different "OS", and the "simplicity" of the Leica T is certainly not a model for future system cameras. For me the model is rather the E-M1, GH4, and X-T1 type of cameras for the tasks, which require system cameras.

The smartphone concept works only, when people don't take pictures as a special task and when this is merely done as a byproduct of their daily life. But for enthusiast or professional high quality photography the smartphone OS is one of the worst OS / user interfaces you can imagine. Cameras that mimick smartphone paradigms aren't very successful amongst photographers, who prefer using tools whose primary purpose is to make photos.

Smartphones are communication devices, not imaging devices primarily. Just because people ALSO use it to take images, does not mean that cameras need to change. The smartphone has replaced a camera category and will continue to do so: the compact camera. And people who in fact only need a compact camera for their image taking tasks, will increasingly realize this and stop buying separate cameras. As a consequence, also the low end DSLR won't be a successful product category in the future.

The manufacturers will shift to enthusiast products. m4/3 should be in a quite good positions as it combines the main selling points of smartphones with photographic quality and flexibility: smallness.

The Leica T shines from a design point of view, but not with respect to handling. Slippery surfaces and menu driven operation looks elegant but is far less usable than OS like Fuji X-T1 and Olympus E-M1. The Leica T is a design object, not a good photographic device, a collectors and luxury item, but no model for a new class of system cameras.
 
Wifi has become the essential item in any camera's OS, but the implementation is just terrible. On the E-M1, it takes at least five steps to connect the camera with an IOS device and then you have something only half-workable. You can't view on both the camera and the IOS device. The camera's controls are frozen and you can't access the menus. And then, just when you think you've got it going, the connection drops and you have to start over. A good idea gone very bad.

Another sticking point with me is the touch screen. Yes, I can touch to select something in the super control panel. And that's all. I then have to revert to using dials to change the settings. No more touch screen.

Sheesh!
 
Why do some people prefer Manual Transmission cars, over Automatic?

Why shift gears when the car can do it for you? Automatic is surely "easier"?
 
Digital photography has reached a maturity point that nearly any currently available ILC takes very good pictures. The differences in image quality are subtle and only show up with pixel peeping or very large image sizes.

Ease of use, ease of publishing/printing are going to become more and more important as a way of differentiating products.
 
Since picking up my little EP3 a couple of years ago, the sticking point for me has really been the OS. Like all cameras, in the modern context it's rubbish.
that's why i went with Panasonic. they have good menu design. olympus is notoriously bad at this.
What really struck me like a ball to the head was Leica's new OS. So intuitive it's ridiculous. Yep, it's maybe too basic and 'phone-like', but where are new users coming from? Where are new photo enthusiasts coming from? Yeah, mobile phones.
stats or it didn't happen! that's like saying that new car owners have had at least a tricycle or a bicycle, so let's put handle bars on cars instead of that confusing steering wheel.
And what do these new photographers expect when the decide they want to step up their photography and get into it? They want usability like their iPhone.
again, stats or it didn't happen. the touch screen interface has serious physical limitations that will never be overcomed. here are two of them:

1. you cannot operate a touch screen device without looking at it. in cameras this is pretty important, especially in models with viewfinders.

2. LCD screens have problems once the temperature goes below freezing. i'm not sure about OLED, those might fare better, but LCDs have serious latency issues at low temperatures. when you buy an expensive camera you probably expect it to work when you go out during the winter.

and this is even before we get into the finger size and shape problem (how many shots are you willing to lose because the screen accidentally registered the wrong button?)
How is it that Leica has it first, and not Sony, or Panasonic or by beloved Olympus?
u jelly? you can use a touch-predominant interface on Panasonic cameras. it doesn't change PASM modes, but it allows a good amount of control.
I really think the key to growing M43 is software based, not hardware.
are we still talking about cameras? dedicated devices for recording images, still and moving? other than some UI changes, what other "software" would be needed? angry birds? skype? weather? why dump more resources into developing gimmicky eye candy, when the money would be better spent on solving real problems like shutter shock or making the proper software corrections for panasonic lenses on olympus cameras, so that 100% compatibility is reached?
The lenses are mostly there, the bodies need a little bit of polishing (but the EM5 didnt win awards because it's rubbish) but they're mostly there....

The elephant in the room is that OS' and connectivity is in the dark ages compared to 'other things that have lenses attached to them'.
you take the card out of the camera and put it in the computer. any computer. you don't even need to install the software that comes with the camera anymore. i'd say that connectivity is a lot better than if dedicated cables and drivers were to be required. those are actually dark ages.
The future of M43 is software.

Thoughts?
P.S: i'm pretty well below the average age group in this forum, so you can;t accuse me of being an "old man that doesn't get these new awesome devices". i actually do get them: when you have a product that's good enough so that there's no need to upgrade every other year, the only way to attract customers is to come up with gimmicks. this is exacerbated by the infinite growth expectations of clueless managers that can't grasp the fact that not everybody on the planet wants or needs a camera/computer/car/smart phone/etc.
 
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There have been a number of comments in this thread (and this forum) to the effect of "why would you want to add a phone to camera". In one ense this is quite true - There's little to be gained by adding the ability to make voice calls tp or from your phone.

However IMO its the other parts of smart phones (not the voice part) that could add a lot of value to tomorrows camera platform.

The key functions IMO are mobile wireless data (e.g. LTE) and the ability for the user to add SW applications to the camera platform.

Today's cameras such as the GM1, EM5 etc are controlled and managed by a computer, just as complex and powerful as those running smart phones and tablets. A user should be able to say something like "well I like that new app that allows me to to combine WB bracketing and exposure bracketing and trigger the sequence from movement detected in live view" spend $50 in the camera app store and install it on his camera.

The M43 group might do well to establish a common API (application programming interface) to allow developers to write apps for smart cameras - the M43 standard probably drives enough common engineering that a common API is possible.

With this kind of capability, a smart camera could be configured as a traditional camera to please the Luddite-conservatives-purist crowd - just a few buttons and menu items to control the fundamentals - the ex Pro-DSLR types could have package that includes a back focus button - the GAS crowd would of course buy every application available.

Quite likely that companies like Adobe, Topaz, Google, Dxo would find this an enticing opprtunity and show up with some interesting stuff, and the independents would likely show up some inetersting ideas (and some trash)

With a high speed wireless data connection, a user would be able to upload his photos and videos directly to his NAS, or cloud sites like Picassa, Flicker and Zenfolio. Not only would this serve as useful backup, in today's society the ability to share images quickly commands a premium.

--

Eric
I don't know that a common API would be possible, but I like where your mind is going. I think a complete rethink of the UI/UX would be up to one specific company and not something that could be open source amongst hardware producers......although there would be nothing stopping a company essentially having a camera with independent image processing apps from third parties actually onboard. Apps that add functionality to the actual camera is a whole other ballpark.
 
Since picking up my little EP3 a couple of years ago, the sticking point for me has really been the OS. Like all cameras, in the modern context it's rubbish.
that's why i went with Panasonic. they have good menu design. olympus is notoriously bad at this.
What really struck me like a ball to the head was Leica's new OS. So intuitive it's ridiculous. Yep, it's maybe too basic and 'phone-like', but where are new users coming from? Where are new photo enthusiasts coming from? Yeah, mobile phones.
stats or it didn't happen! that's like saying that new car owners have had at least a tricycle or a bicycle, so let's put handle bars on cars instead of that confusing steering wheel.
And what do these new photographers expect when the decide they want to step up their photography and get into it? They want usability like their iPhone.
again, stats or it didn't happen. the touch screen interface has serious physical limitations that will never be overcomed. here are two of them:

1. you cannot operate a touch screen device without looking at it. in cameras this is pretty important, especially in models with viewfinders.

2. LCD screens have problems once the temperature goes below freezing. i'm not sure about OLED, those might fare better, but LCDs have serious latency issues at low temperatures. when you buy an expensive camera you probably expect it to work when you go out during the winter.

and this is even before we get into the finger size and shape problem (how many shots are you willing to lose because the screen accidentally registered the wrong button?)
How is it that Leica has it first, and not Sony, or Panasonic or by beloved Olympus?
u jelly? you can use a touch-predominant interface on Panasonic cameras. it doesn't change PASM modes, but it allows a good amount of control.
I really think the key to growing M43 is software based, not hardware.
are we still talking about cameras? dedicated devices for recording images, still and moving? other than some UI changes, what other "software" would be needed? angry birds? skype? weather? why dump more resources into developing gimmicky eye candy, when the money would be better spent on solving real problems like shutter shock or making the proper software corrections for panasonic lenses on olympus cameras, so that 100% compatibility is reached?
The lenses are mostly there, the bodies need a little bit of polishing (but the EM5 didnt win awards because it's rubbish) but they're mostly there....

The elephant in the room is that OS' and connectivity is in the dark ages compared to 'other things that have lenses attached to them'.
you take the card out of the camera and put it in the computer. any computer. you don't even need to install the software that comes with the camera anymore. i'd say that connectivity is a lot better than if dedicated cables and drivers were to be required. those are actually dark ages.
The future of M43 is software.

Thoughts?
P.S: i'm pretty well below the average age group in this forum, so you can;t accuse me of being an "old man that doesn't get these new awesome devices". i actually do get them: when you have a product that's good enough so that there's no need to upgrade every other year, the only way to attract customers is to come up with gimmicks. this is exacerbated by the infinite growth expectations of clueless managers that can't grasp the fact that not everybody on the planet wants or needs a camera/computer/car/smart phone/etc.
I think you're a bit confused. I never said what people want is either angry birds on their camera, nor a UI thats just a giant screen. You're being absolutist in your thinking. Is the current UI/UX of cameras for all users at it's pinnacle? If the answer is no, can't we discuss whats possible, because the operations and controls of most cameras appear to me to have substantial room for improvement.

Add to the list: PVR and TV interfaces. Ungh! So rubbish.
 
I think it's important to remember a) Your wants and needs and desires arent everyone elses, and b) If you're losing sales to the cameras in mobile phones, you better take a good hard look at who your competitors are, what the users want, and how to increase your sales despite this.....

Or you could just make retro styled cameras for grumpy people who harken for the 'good old days'. ;)
 
I think it's important to remember a) Your wants and needs and desires arent everyone elses,
obvious from where this discussion is headed
and b) If you're losing sales to the cameras in mobile phones, you better take a good hard look at who your competitors are, what the users want, and how to increase your sales despite this.....
the users want an imaging device that is always with them. that's the main appeal of the smart phone: you have it with you anyway, and it takes good enough photos. of course, connectivity helps, but it's a mix of wi-fi and mobile internet capabilities.

also, sales aren't everything. it also matters what you sell. food sells better than cameras, and it's a real competitor as far as some people are concerned (those of us that have to save money before buying more gear). i somehow doubt that panasonic should make bread or grow fruits in order to increase the amount of sales that i generate.
Or you could just make retro styled cameras for grumpy people who harken for the 'good old days'. ;)
some young people also like retro styled cameras. especially if by "retro" you mean "actual buttons".
 
I think you're a bit confused. I never said what people want is either angry birds on their camera, nor a UI thats just a giant screen.
but the Leica T is just a giant screen. ok, it has two unmarked dials, but you didn't talk about them you were praising their touch interface, which relies on the giant screen. also, when you're calling for better software for the platform, you're going to go down the route of Samsung, which has promised more "apps" (i hate this word) for their cameras, but didn't actually deliver much. or was that Sony? I forget. so it's been tried.
You're being absolutist in your thinking. Is the current UI/UX of cameras for all users at it's pinnacle? If the answer is no, can't we discuss whats possible, because the operations and controls of most cameras appear to me to have substantial room for improvement.
you're calling for a dumbing down of cameras using gimmicky touch-only based controls. had you been praising the panasonic GH line, with its combination of physical and touch interface, then maybe i would have believed you. but if your idea of a "next best thing" is the Leica M, which is almost the iPhone of the cameras at this point, then you're arguing for dumping buttons, which have been proven over years to work well, for some shiny animated touch interface that's good to impress other people, but has serious drawbacks when you want to focus on just using the camera to take pictures. this idea reminds me of Microsoft's approach to some of its versions of Windows, when they would talk about it as if running Windows was the final purpose of the computer. well, it isn't. the OS's purpose is to be as transparent as possible so that you can run your programs. same for the cameras: you should have an interface that's as invisible as possible so that you actually look at the scene you're trying to capture instead of looking at the device that you're using.
Add to the list: PVR and TV interfaces. Ungh! So rubbish.
 
I think it's important to remember a) Your wants and needs and desires arent everyone elses, and b) If you're losing sales to the cameras in mobile phones, you better take a good hard look at who your competitors are, what the users want, and how to increase your sales despite this.....
I don't think MFT is losing sales to smartphones. Simple P&S cameras most likely are, but that's not what we are talking about here. Consequently, I think the proper way to compete with smartphones is not primarily to emulate what smartphones do (why would that make anyone upgrade from a smartphone to a system camera?) but to offer something different and better (for photographic purposes) than smartphones can offer. While good connectivity and a nice touch-screen interface are certainly not out of the way, those interested in upgrading from a smartphone to a system camera are likely to look for something different from, and better than, a smartphone look-alike.
Or you could just make retro styled cameras for grumpy people who harken for the 'good old days'. ;)
Whether it is new or retro is beside the point. The point is whether the new stuff is genuinely better or not. For example, EVFs provides interface features that are not available (or not as easily available) with OVFs (e.g., blinkies/zebras, peaking, magnification) and I much welcome these new features because they are efficient for photographic purpose.
 
I think you're a bit confused. I never said what people want is either angry birds on their camera, nor a UI thats just a giant screen.
but the Leica T is just a giant screen. ok, it has two unmarked dials, but you didn't talk about them you were praising their touch interface, which relies on the giant screen. also, when you're calling for better software for the platform, you're going to go down the route of Samsung, which has promised more "apps" (i hate this word) for their cameras, but didn't actually deliver much. or was that Sony? I forget. so it's been tried.
I like the flow of information in the Leica interface, but I'm completely against having a camera that's just a giant screen. I don't come from the Apple school of haptics.
You're being absolutist in your thinking. Is the current UI/UX of cameras for all users at it's pinnacle? If the answer is no, can't we discuss whats possible, because the operations and controls of most cameras appear to me to have substantial room for improvement.
you're calling for a dumbing down of cameras using gimmicky touch-only based controls......but if your idea of a "next best thing" is the Leica M, which is almost the iPhone of the cameras at this point, then you're arguing for dumping buttons, which have been proven over years to work well, for some shiny animated touch interface that's good to impress other people, but has serious drawbacks when you want to focus on just using the camera to take pictures.
No no no. Read my posts. My idea of the 'next big thing' isn't the Leica T. I think it's a new direction in UI/UX, but its just the tip of the iceberg in terms of ideas that should be explored, but from my vantage point as a designer with a strong UX background, it puts into stark contrast how far behind UI/UX camera design is. I don't actually have any preconceived notions of what a camera is supposed to be, because it's clear that design of the user interface post-film hasn't evolved very much at all, so in light of the versatility and success of mobile devices (yes, the camera IS a communication device) it throws into stark contrast for me how backward camera design really is.

Heck, it's completely feasable that the camera of the future doesn't even have a screen - you never take your eye off the scene you're shooting or your hands off the buttons to compose the scene or adjust the camera.
 
…Apple is deliberately making it more iPhone/iPad-like. Why? That's where the new Mac computer buyers are coming from and/or users are sharing stuff across.

As a recalcitrant old codger, I am still lurking in my hole with OS X.6.8 on my Macbook Pro so I can run legacy apps, and I have a phone that is, oddly enough, a phone not a Dee-Vice! But as a marketer, I can see where they are heading and why.

And Maklike is dead right -- lots of people want that system look and feel on their cameras. I find the G6 just fine -- but those iPhone users would not, I fear!

Cheers, geoff
 
I have an Oly e-pm2 and everything about the gui except the super control panel suck. I like to see more of that and less of the rest. Note that Leica T gui kinda looks like the Olympus SCP.
 
That can surely be improved upon too for those who find it useful. I'm for the most part a VF man. Touch-screen EVF anyone? ;-)
It's not as outlandish as it might sound. Even within M43 we have cameras that allow some use of the touch screen when you are using the VF, and the functionality provided is actually quite real and pragmatic.
 
The newest line of samsungs is just that: UI like phones.

R P
 
…Apple is deliberately making it more iPhone/iPad-like. Why? That's where the new Mac computer buyers are coming from and/or users are sharing stuff across.

As a recalcitrant old codger, I am still lurking in my hole with OS X.6.8 on my Macbook Pro so I can run legacy apps, and I have a phone that is, oddly enough, a phone not a Dee-Vice! But as a marketer, I can see where they are heading and why.

And Maklike is dead right -- lots of people want that system look and feel on their cameras. I find the G6 just fine -- but those iPhone users would not, I fear!

Cheers, geoff
 

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