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“L” or”M” on the Fuji EXR cameras?

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DMillier said:
Andy

You can get access to the EXR modes in raw.

You need to set Raw + jpeg rather than plain old raw. This will give a 6MP DR400 raw file if you need it.
Click to expand...
Not on the X-S1 as far as I can see, I've had two here, and neither have allowed Raw at all in any EXR mode (I've tried setting it in the menu, and using the Raw button).

For sure it works if you select M size and DR400 in P mode (and indeed L size using the ISO boost, which results in poor images).

But as far as I can see, using the same Raw+JPEG M size setting that is used on the HS-50, does not work on the X-S1.
 
That's interesting and disappointing. On my X10 (the only EXR camera I'm familiar with), you:

- set the camera is one of the PASM modes on the mode dial (I always use Aperture priority),

- go to Menu/Image size and set M (4:3).

- set image quality to F (fine)

- Go to the settings menu and find the RAW option. Set to Raw + jpeg

at which point the dynamic range options on the shooting menu stop being greyed out and you can choose between DR100, 200 and 400.

The LCD then shows: RAW/M/F DR400 ISO 100.

Shame if the XS1 doesn't do this because you'd have to ask what is the point of fitting a non-working EXR sensor? You'd be better off with a plain old Bayer sensor...
 
Lloydy said:
... L. No brainer. It is easy to downscale

Besides, of the five EXR cameras I own M just turns details to mush

Just my opinion of course

However, if others posit their opinion ask them to show SOOC comparisons. I find the discussion always goes mute at that point. Push the point. You will get no response

Keep in mind that my views are based on actually printing an image (what the camera was originally designed for). And, I would not be happy if I could not print to, minimum, A3.

Note - All my Fuji EXR cameras have successfully printed to A3 at L size, or larger, and with lots of detail, to boot
jeffsvisions said:
OK I’m trying to get the best out of my EXR cameras (X10 & XS1). both new to me.

How do all of you use these “L” or”M”. or are there time when one is better that the other?

I've read a lot on here and else where . Some say “L” only, some say no brainier “M” only?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yes, DMiller, You are completely right about DR-expansion in L-Mode. There it´s a "software-trick" that actually works pretty well, as we could see f.e. in Fuji´s S100fs.

I tried DR400% in L-Mode, which requires ISO400 .. resulting in too high (shadow) noise to my taste. ISO200 (DR200%) though is still ok .. improved DR (or call it "protected hilights") welcome :-).

As it comes to RAW and EXR: RAW only is not available on any EXR-modes. If You choose Your own settings - like "M", ISO100 and DR400% - You have RAW+jpeg of course.

To my understanding it makes sense, that the cam is not providing RAW when doing it´s own EXR"calculation" of the scenery. On the other hand of course it would be useful, to have that RAW in case the EXR-output isn´t to ones expectations ..

Some are writing that the result of RAW-conversions make EXR-mode into a "toy".

Can You show examples how the final image bests the jpeg sooc?

I am a RAW-shooter .. but to date i haven´t managed to get results that "beat" Fuji´s jpegs (my EXR-experience is limited to X-S1 !) in EVERY aspect. I have tried different converters, but i never have been really happy with what i got. Perhaps it changes with Adobes latest 8.4-update (color profiles for a few X-Trans and EXR-cams) - but as i still use a pretty old 32-bit-machine, f.e. LR5 will not run ..

--
"babha" is actually a combination of"BAtuk BHAgwan", a kind of nickname given to me by a group of elder pilgrims during our pilgrimage to the holiest places (according to hindus) in India 1991: meaning is about "divine rascal" ;-) .. btw "babha" aswell is often used to address white strangers
my pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/batuk_bhagwan/
 
Last edited:
DMillier said:
That's interesting and disappointing. On my X10 (the only EXR camera I'm familiar with), you:

- set the camera is one of the PASM modes on the mode dial (I always use Aperture priority),

- go to Menu/Image size and set M (4:3).

- set image quality to F (fine)

- Go to the settings menu and find the RAW option. Set to Raw + jpeg

at which point the dynamic range options on the shooting menu stop being greyed out and you can choose between DR100, 200 and 400.

The LCD then shows: RAW/M/F DR400 ISO 100.

Shame if the XS1 doesn't do this because you'd have to ask what is the point of fitting a non-working EXR sensor? You'd be better off with a plain old Bayer sensor...
Click to expand...
The X-S1 does do this exactly as you described. But as soon as you turn the mode dial to EXR, the RAW icon disappears, no matter which EXR mode is selected. Change the shooting mode back to the P,A,S or M position and the RAW icon reappears.

This was all thrashed out over two years ago (thanks, Google) in PAUL TILL's "X-S1 getting no RAW files in EXR mode" thread and he got Fuji UK involved, but apparently nothing ever came of it. He may recall more details.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3166979
 
jeffsvisions said:
OK I’m trying to get the best out of my EXR cameras (X10 & XS1). both new to me.

How do all of you use these “L” or”M”. or are there time when one is better that the other?

I've read a lot on here and else where . Some say “L” only, some say no brainier “M” only?
Click to expand...
 
If lens performance varies for the same model, would some XS1 "L" be better than other XS1's "M". The user then have to test the XS1 owned and decide on his preference
 
jeffsvisions said:
OK I’m trying to get the best out of my EXR cameras (X10 & XS1). both new to me.

How do all of you use these “L” or”M”. or are there time when one is better that the other?

I've read a lot on here and else where . Some say “L” only, some say no brainier “M” only?
Click to expand...
 
photoreddi said:
DMillier said:
That's interesting and disappointing. On my X10 (the only EXR camera I'm familiar with), you:

- set the camera is one of the PASM modes on the mode dial (I always use Aperture priority),

- go to Menu/Image size and set M (4:3).

- set image quality to F (fine)

- Go to the settings menu and find the RAW option. Set to Raw + jpeg

at which point the dynamic range options on the shooting menu stop being greyed out and you can choose between DR100, 200 and 400.

The LCD then shows: RAW/M/F DR400 ISO 100.

Shame if the XS1 doesn't do this because you'd have to ask what is the point of fitting a non-working EXR sensor? You'd be better off with a plain old Bayer sensor...
Click to expand...
The X-S1 does do this exactly as you described. But as soon as you turn the mode dial to EXR, the RAW icon disappears, no matter which EXR mode is selected. Change the shooting mode back to the P,A,S or M position and the RAW icon reappears.

This was all thrashed out over two years ago (thanks, Google) in PAUL TILL's "X-S1 getting no RAW files in EXR mode" thread and he got Fuji UK involved, but apparently nothing ever came of it. He may recall more details.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3166979
Click to expand...
Your mistake is in thinking you need to use the exr setting on the mode dial. Instead choose pAsm mode 6mp medium size, raw+job and dr400. This will give you exe capabilities without using the next setting which is jpg only. Documentation of these features is poor.
 
DMillier said:
DavidMillier said:
DMillier said:
That's interesting and disappointing. On my X10 (the only EXR camera I'm familiar with), you:

- set the camera is one of the PASM modes on the mode dial (I always use Aperture priority),

- go to Menu/Image size and set M (4:3).

- set image quality to F (fine)

- Go to the settings menu and find the RAW option. Set to Raw + jpeg

at which point the dynamic range options on the shooting menu stop being greyed out and you can choose between DR100, 200 and 400.

The LCD then shows: RAW/M/F DR400 ISO 100.

Shame if the XS1 doesn't do this because you'd have to ask what is the point of fitting a non-working EXR sensor? You'd be better off with a plain old Bayer sensor...
Click to expand...
The X-S1 does do this exactly as you described. But as soon as you turn the mode dial to EXR, the RAW icon disappears, no matter which EXR mode is selected. Change the shooting mode back to the P,A,S or M position and the RAW icon reappears.

This was all thrashed out over two years ago (thanks, Google) in PAUL TILL's "X-S1 getting no RAW files in EXR mode" thread and he got Fuji UK involved, but apparently nothing ever came of it. He may recall more details.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3166979
Click to expand...
Your mistake is in thinking you need to use the exr setting on the mode dial. Instead choose pAsm mode 6mp medium size, raw+job and dr400. This will give you exe capabilities without using the next setting which is jpg only. Documentation of these features is poor.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that you fully understand what's going on under the hood? If this is done ("pAsm mode 6mp medium size, raw+job and dr400"), which 6mp EXR mode is used, EXR HIGH ISO & LOW NOISE or EXR D-RANGE PRIORITY? The ISO value used has a more profound effect on the output files than most people realize. Do you know all of the things that it affects? They aren't documented. :)
 
photoreddi said:
DMillier said:
photoreddi said:
DMillier said:
That's interesting and disappointing. On my X10 (the only EXR camera I'm familiar with), you:

- set the camera is one of the PASM modes on the mode dial (I always use Aperture priority),

- go to Menu/Image size and set M (4:3).

- set image quality to F (fine)

- Go to the settings menu and find the RAW option. Set to Raw + jpeg

at which point the dynamic range options on the shooting menu stop being greyed out and you can choose between DR100, 200 and 400.

The LCD then shows: RAW/M/F DR400 ISO 100.

Shame if the XS1 doesn't do this because you'd have to ask what is the point of fitting a non-working EXR sensor? You'd be better off with a plain old Bayer sensor...
Click to expand...
The X-S1 does do this exactly as you described. But as soon as you turn the mode dial to EXR, the RAW icon disappears, no matter which EXR mode is selected. Change the shooting mode back to the P,A,S or M position and the RAW icon reappears.

This was all thrashed out over two years ago (thanks, Google) in PAUL TILL's "X-S1 getting no RAW files in EXR mode" thread and he got Fuji UK involved, but apparently nothing ever came of it. He may recall more details.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3166979
Click to expand...
Your mistake is in thinking you need to use the exr setting on the mode dial. Instead choose pAsm mode 6mp medium size, raw+job and dr400. This will give you exe capabilities without using the next setting which is jpg only. Documentation of these features is poor.
Click to expand...
Are you sure that you fully understand what's going on under the hood? If this is done ("pAsm mode 6mp medium size, raw+job and dr400"), which 6mp EXR mode is used, EXR HIGH ISO & LOW NOISE or EXR D-RANGE PRIORITY? The ISO value used has a more profound effect on the output files than most people realize. Do you know all of the things that it affects? They aren't documented. :)
Click to expand...
It's a huge mistake to set your EXR cam to MSize DR400 as default setting. LSize RAW DR-Auto is the way to go. I'll cut my fingers if any EXR-crap setting is better than that. =D

-=[ Joms ]=-
 
What reason do you have for not using 6MP DR400 raw?

- it definitely expands dynamic range

- it is definitely raw

- it is definitely ISO 100

Not so definite (for me), as I have only done one test, is the effect on resolution. The test results I showed yesterday seem to indicate that there is little or no resolution increase when using 12MP mode. I'd need to do more tests to confirm this but that's my working hypothesis. I'd need to see evidence to the contrary rather than hand-waving...
 
Hi

I looked at your comparison and it looks clear cut that L size is more detailed.

Trouble is, my own comparisons (using raw) I did yesterday don't show the same result. Also, you don't seem to find much DR expansion going on in your tests in M size, but my tests showed lots of DR expansion.

What are we to make of this?

I think the sensible thing would be do some more testing and see if we can tighten up procedures etc and get a definitive result. One of the problems with loose field testing of this type is that errors in testing procedure can sometimes exceed the variables being tested.

I'd like to redo my tests using similar subjects to what you used but unfortunately I'm back at work now, then on holiday, which will frustrate efforts a little. I'll see if it's possible to squeeze in a test, maybe at lunchtime depending on the weather.

Watch this space.
 
DMillier said:
Hi

I looked at your comparison and it looks clear cut that L size is more detailed.

Trouble is, my own comparisons (using raw) I did yesterday don't show the same result. Also, you don't seem to find much DR expansion going on in your tests in M size, but my tests showed lots of DR expansion.

What are we to make of this?

I think the sensible thing would be do some more testing and see if we can tighten up procedures etc and get a definitive result. One of the problems with loose field testing of this type is that errors in testing procedure can sometimes exceed the variables being tested.

I'd like to redo my tests using similar subjects to what you used but unfortunately I'm back at work now, then on holiday, which will frustrate efforts a little. I'll see if it's possible to squeeze in a test, maybe at lunchtime depending on the weather.

Watch this space.
Click to expand...
 
DMillier said:
That's interesting and disappointing. On my X10 (the only EXR camera I'm familiar with), you:

- set the camera is one of the PASM modes on the mode dial (I always use Aperture priority),

- go to Menu/Image size and set M (4:3).

- set image quality to F (fine)

- Go to the settings menu and find the RAW option. Set to Raw + jpeg

at which point the dynamic range options on the shooting menu stop being greyed out and you can choose between DR100, 200 and 400.

The LCD then shows: RAW/M/F DR400 ISO 100.

Shame if the XS1 doesn't do this because you'd have to ask what is the point of fitting a non-working EXR sensor? You'd be better off with a plain old Bayer sensor...
Click to expand...
Yeah, it does all that on the X-S1 in PASM modes, but not if you use the EXR mode on the dial (which does work on the HS-50 if you choose Raw+JPEG). However, you cannot set the image size in Raw only mode either, it simply says 'Raw', and is not selectable.

One thing we did discuss last year, at least as far as the HS-50 goes, is that it does seem that there are subtle differences between the full EXR modes used on the dial, against those set using the PASM modes. It looks like they have got some things happening 'under the hood' in EXR modes that cannot be replicated in other modes.
 
An outstanding debunking ... saved me a lot of time :-)
 
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