I can't believe Pentax still has a Mirror Flop Issue..

Tom Lusk said:

...We've already seen the " Shhhh! Revealing problems with Pentax gear will accomplish nothing, but could hurt sales. Better to just keep quiet and live with the problems than risk that!" :-O

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Thanks Tom.

Ya know, it's funny. Some people think I've been really vocal about this problem... yet I held off for MONTHS before I started sharing online what I was going through out in the real world. I actually don't want to hurt Pentax as a brand because I like their cameras so much... and I really hesitated talking about this issue because of that fact.

However, since it's been going on since November and I see no further progress from Pentax on fixing the issue, it was time to speak up. They treated me kindly, they exchanged two cameras and they've helped me personally with other issues, so I can say, as a company, they have taken care of me. However, for the overall brand, it doesn't inspire confidence that they can't get this one big issue fixed... and for some of us, it's a huge issue of reliability.

Amy

Look, every manufacturer has problems with the stuff they produce. On the one hand, if you are a consumer you should absolutely demand the product you paid hard earned money for be working as specified.

So, if your gear is faulty, replace it. As has been discussed, manufacturing issues likely affect entire runs of product. So, you MIGHT end up with a similar problem from the same store if the gear was manufactured at the same time. Be persistent - send it back twice if need be.

Pentax is no different than any manufacturer - once you admit a problem exists, everyone wants a new product. It's costly. And, just like manufacturers everywhere, Pentax will do a cost-benefit analysis on whether or not to do a recall or whether to address each on a case-by-case basis.

Bottom line - protect your OWN rights as a consumer by getting something that works. But, no need to be a zealot on the soap box that any manufacturer must admit a problem exists and recall products. Sure, you see firmware fixes because they are inexpensive. Hardware repairs are not.

What is reasonable to me is to keep other owners and potential buyers aware of issues so they can see if the issues affect them. That makes sense. NOW, I think if your manufacturer is refusing to address YOUR product or denies the problem, that's completely different. From my own brand - Canon - the 1dIII focus fiasco is a great example of the brand denying any problem existed but being forced to fix it. It also affected a very large portion of the products. But, as long as replacement or warranty repair fixes the problem for you, no need to keep beating the drums of discontent.

On the other side of the coin you have brand apologists that have some irrational emotional attachment to their brand. Any notion that there is something less than perfect in a product offering from their brand is perceived as a personal attack. Don't worry about those people. Everyone else recognizes their posts for what they are.

Hopefully, Ricoh doesn't pull a Nikon D600 like fiasco. That eventually became very ugly·. The 64k question at the moment is: what's wrong with the K3? Follow up: can the flaw be fixed? Aside from this, the camera itself is spectacular.

Ricoh needs to do a better job with the user guide too.

JGoodard said:

Ricoh needs to do a better job with the user guide too.

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I think technology companies in general do a horrible job at user manuals. When trying to configure my Denon receivers it often takes several reads and then some google searches to make sense of what is written. I think they all make sense if converted to Aramaic or something but in English, something must get lost in the translation.

2PK said:

Unlike your ranting when you don't even own the camera.

Too many people mouth off negatively about things they have never experienced, purchased, used, owned and create this ridiculous hysteria that does nothing to improve the product but does a great deal of damage to the brand and in the majority of cases unjustifiably.

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I'm one of those who has had this problem, and registered the fact at Pentax Forums. Information such as serial numbers and circumstances is being collected there. The wider the existence of that register is publicised, the more representative the information in it will be.

To me, what is important is for Ricoh/Pentax to resolve this problem ASAP. The more pressure that can be put upon them to do so, the better.

I have been using Pentax (and only Pentax) SLRs for 46 years. That may be called "brand loyalty"! But I will not relax pressure on Ricoh/Pentax for that.

2PK said:

Did you format your SD cards before trying them in the replacement K-3?

Did you try a smaller SD card? Most of the posts I've seen have been 16Gb, 32Gb and 64Gb cards.

Never had an issue with my K-5 and thus far not had a problem with my K-3 but only have 8Gb cards.

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I use Sandisk Extreme Pro 32GB cards. I did so on my K-5, K-5IIs, and now my K-3.

I need to use large cards, because of the number of shots I am likely to take in a day. And besides, any flagship camera that can't handle 32GB cards nowadays shouldn't be on the market!

John_A_G said:

Pentax is no different than any manufacturer - once you admit a problem exists, everyone wants a new product. It's costly. And, just like manufacturers everywhere, Pentax will do a cost-benefit analysis on whether or not to do a recall or whether to address each on a case-by-case basis.

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I think that, for a Japanese company, there is more involved. Admitting to a problem such as this would cause the company, and individual designers, to lose face. And from what I understand of Japanese companies, bringing up such a problem causes your boss to lose face. So you don't do it.

I've long thought that many of Pentax's problems stem from a lack of cultural understanding of the expectations of their non-Japanese customers.

Joe

I am sure most of us are well aware that all electronic/mechanical products have a MTBF, which is dependant on the cost; i.e., military high cost/ high MTBF. All manufacturers are well aware of the risks involved and Pentax is no exception. Users have very little data available, contrary to the manufacturers, so we have to rely on them to resolve any issue. It just may boil down to a matter of the faith each one has in the product/manufacturer.

Earl

Yes but it is not even in the same universe as the Nikon D600 fiasco. Has Pentax ever had a country tell them not to sell that model anymore inside their borders? No.

Kent Gittings

Kent - what country prohibited the sale of the D600?

Edit: I just saw the article concerning China.

Help me understand. Is this issue a fatal flaw or an inconvenience? From the commentary, it sounds as if its the former and it renders the K3 useless.

mgm2 said:

Help me understand. Is this issue a fatal flaw or an inconvenience? From the commentary, it sounds as if its the former and it renders the K3 useless.

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in case you want your K-3 to take pictures without supervision, it is a little more than an inconvenience.

With all due respect, I don't understand your post.

mgm2 said:

With all due respect, I don't understand your post.

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I wanted to say, that the problem is more than an inconvenience ...

... if you want your camera to automatically/unattended/unsupervised take photos.

... if you want to do interval shooting without staying near your camera to control if everything is still working.

Sorry for my bad English!

emem said:

I have absolutely no idea where you get your figures from Zvonimir other that to think it's wishful thinking on your part. Here's my take on it, pasted from my post above because I think MY numbers are worth repeating. "I think if over 70 have reported this problem on Pentax Forums (and my name isn't on the list because I don't frequent that forum) out of the - what? - hundreds of people who post there? Maybe several thousand? I think it would be fairly safe to extrapolate from those numbers that maybe 5% or more of owners have experienced it? At least 50 or 60 per thousand? (and certainly MANY MORE than the ridiculous 1 per 10,000 that you claim. As well as that, the K-3 is relatively young - barely 6 months old. It would be a rare fault that improves with the age of the camera.".

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Considering the size of the networked world, many personal communication devices connected to it and, so far, we have counted less than 100 cameras affected by the issue.

But you insist there are more, because there *must* be more, right? Perhaps because many people were afraid or negligent to post any question or affirmation about their highly unusual experience?

(DIGRESSION: However, did it ever occur to you that it may be the opposite: even those 70+ may not have been 70+ at all, and that some fabricated their “problems” just to gain attention and growl a little against the brand that did not deliver them something they expected, say … an FF camera, or anything else they waited Pentax to deliver to “them”?)

Or, if it is not that — human negligence or fear — you believe there is a “mirror-flop demon” in each and every Pentax DSLR camera waiting to be awakened at some stage?

Of course, any such proposition of counting imaginary sheep is only a failed human attempt to deal with matters of uncertainty and low probability.

That is your defence mechanism — you propose that the sword of Damocles hangs over everybody’s head instead in this case, not only yours, as that fallacy will give you consolation to deal with uncertainty.

Lets say you're a wedding photographer. You are in a quiet church shooting the ceremony. Just as the new couple is lighting candles or reciting their vows, your K3 decides to lock up, not take any pictures, and best yet, starts making a machine-gun like noise during an intimate moment that cannot be recreated... not only is the shot ruined, but the family is pretty unhappy your equipment made such a racket.

Or lets say your'e hired as a journalistic photographer to shoot an important news event. Just as the most important moment of the day begins to play out, your camera decides to lockup, go into some crazy mirror-flapping bizarro world, and you can't stop it until you pull out the battery. Backup camera at your side or not, you've missed the shot, and you can't set it up again.

Low probability or not, I wouldn't take the chance. That's a big risk to take in the context of paying gigs.

But how about the birders... lets say they've just seen an amazing life bird and want to capture it. It just so happens that though the camera performed great all day, it now decides to lockup and not take that shot of the grand bird they just saw, and better still, the mirror-flapping makes enough noise to frighten it away.

There's a reason this issue is important for Pentax to address. It comes down to reliability. Even if you think the risk is small, it's especially unpredictable. It can happen just about anytime, anywhere, and there seems to be no preventing it. It's not just an inconvenience, or, as in my case, an issue where the camera can't be left to shoot time-lapse for any length of time on it's own dependably. Mind you, I monitor my cameras all day, but I often have more than one set up, so need to be able to go back and forth between the two. So yes, it's an issue there too... but that isn't the only issue.

Amy

--
Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.
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DRabbit said:

Lets say you're a wedding photographer. You are in a quiet church shooting the ceremony. Just as the new couple is lighting candles or reciting their vows, your K3 decides to lock up, not take any pictures, and best yet, starts making a machine-gun like noise during an intimate moment that cannot be recreated... not only is the shot ruined, but the family is pretty unhappy your equipment made such a racket.

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Never heard anyone complain about this happening, not saying it can't though

DRabbit said:

Or lets say your'e hired as a journalistic photographer to shoot an important news event. Just as the most important moment of the day begins to play out, your camera decides to lockup, go into some crazy mirror-flapping bizarro world, and you can't stop it until you pull out the battery. Backup camera at your side or not, you've missed the shot, and you can't set it up again.

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Never heard anyone complain about this happening, not saying it can't though

DRabbit said:

Low probability or not, I wouldn't take the chance. That's a big risk to take in the context of paying gigs.

But how about the birders... lets say they've just seen an amazing life bird and want to capture it. It just so happens that though the camera performed great all day, it now decides to lockup and not take that shot of the grand bird they just saw, and better still, the mirror-flapping makes enough noise to frighten it away.

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Never heard anyone complain about this happening, not saying it can't though

All sounds like hypothetical situations that nobody has encountered written here for the sole purpose of fear mongering.

DRabbit said:

There's a reason this issue is important for Pentax to address. It comes down to reliability. Even if you think the risk is small, it's especially unpredictable. It can happen just about anytime, anywhere, and there seems to be no preventing it. It's not just an inconvenience, or, as in my case, an issue where the camera can't be left to shoot time-lapse for any length of time on it's own dependably. Mind you, I monitor my cameras all day, but I often have more than one set up, so need to be able to go back and forth between the two. So yes, it's an issue there too... but that isn't the only issue.

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You have the problem... have you serviced the camera or are you just going to sit there with a faulty camera just so you have something to complain about. You complain Pentax hasn't addressed this issue but as a general statement how do they even know what the issue really is or that it exists if they never get the camera to test for that issue. I have never had this issue and only encountered one person who had a similar issue in a K100D many years ago and yet I still took the time to bring this issue up to a Pentax service tech I know to see what light they could shed on it. have you even called Pentax service about it. or are you just destined to live out the life of the camera in hateful anger of Pentax over an issue all you care to do is complain about.

Simple life lesson, complaining never fixed anything! If is such a horrible problem so bad you can't use the camera, so bad Pentax should be embarrassed then get off your seat, get it fixed or buy another brand!!!

DRabbit said:

Amy

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Zvonimir Tosic said:

emem said:

I have absolutely no idea where you get your figures from Zvonimir other that to think it's wishful thinking on your part. Here's my take on it, pasted from my post above because I think MY numbers are worth repeating. "I think if over 70 have reported this problem on Pentax Forums (and my name isn't on the list because I don't frequent that forum) out of the - what? - hundreds of people who post there? Maybe several thousand? I think it would be fairly safe to extrapolate from those numbers that maybe 5% or more of owners have experienced it? At least 50 or 60 per thousand? (and certainly MANY MORE than the ridiculous 1 per 10,000 that you claim. As well as that, the K-3 is relatively young - barely 6 months old. It would be a rare fault that improves with the age of the camera.".

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Considering the size of the networked world, many personal communication devices connected to it and, so far, we have counted less than 100 cameras affected by the issue.

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What is this supposed to mean? What do untold millions of personal communications devices have to do with a problem with a specific camera model? Absolutely nothing.

Zvonimir Tosic said:

But you insist there are more, because there *must* be more, right? Perhaps because many people were afraid or negligent to post any question or affirmation about their highly unusual experience?

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So - do you believe that everybody who has experienced this problem is a member of Pentax Forums? And that everyone who has a K3 has used their camera enough to encounter the problem. The 70+ reported cameras are all that have or will have a similar behaviour?

Zvonimir Tosic said:

(DIGRESSION: However, did it ever occur to you that it may be the opposite: even those 70+ may not have been 70+ at all, and that some fabricated their “problems” just to gain attention and growl a little against the brand that did not deliver them something they expected, say … an FF camera, or anything else they waited Pentax to deliver to “them”?)

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Now you are going on about some sort of conspiracy. Why not contact those people you suspect are falsely claiming a problem (to gain attention?) and let us know how many are just having a little fun - you know - "growling" because they didn't get a FF, etc?

Zvonimir Tosic said:

Or, if it is not that — human negligence or fear — you believe there is a “mirror-flop demon” in each and every Pentax DSLR camera waiting to be awakened at some stage?

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Zvonimir Tosic said:

Of course, any such proposition of counting imaginary sheep is only a failed human attempt to deal with matters of uncertainty and low probability.

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Low probability? It's unlikely there are 700 owners of K3's that frequent Pentax Forums, let alone there and here combined. 70 problem units would indicate a minimum 10% failure rate.

Zvonimir Tosic said:

That is your defence mechanism — you propose that the sword of Damocles hangs over everybody’s head instead in this case, not only yours, as that fallacy will give you consolation to deal with uncertainty.

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Sounds like something Roland would have said... ;-)

What ever happened to Roland, anyway?

Zvonimir Tosic said:

--
Madamina, il catalogo è questo; Delle belle che amò il padron mio; un catalogo egli è che ho fatt'io; Osservate, leggete con me.

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MightyMike said:

DRabbit said:

Lets say you're a wedding photographer...

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Never heard anyone complain about this happening, not saying it can't though

MightyMike said:

Or lets say your'e hired as a journalistic photographer...

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Never heard anyone complain about this happening, not saying it can't though

MightyMike said:

Low probability or not, I wouldn't take the chance. That's a big risk to take in the context of paying gigs.

But how about the birders...

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Never heard anyone complain about this happening, not saying it can't though

All sounds like hypothetical situations that nobody has encountered written here for the sole purpose of fear mongering.

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If you were going to choose a camera to buy to use professionally that you needed to rely on, would it buy one with such an issue? If you say yes, then you're just arguing for the sake of it.

MightyMike said:

MightyMike said:

There's a reason this issue is important for Pentax to address. It comes down to reliability.

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You have the problem... have you serviced the camera or are you just going to sit there with a faulty camera just so you have something to complain about.

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You obviously can't read. Or you can't be bothered to actually find out that I've posted about this before... along with lots of information and links (of which would give you the answer).

Two K3s I've owned have had the problem. Both were returned... They can't service something if they don't know what the problem is.

MightyMike said:

You complain Pentax hasn't addressed this issue but as a general statement how do they even know what the issue really is or that it exists if they never get the camera to test for that issue.

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I offered to send both bodies to them. They weren't interested. They told me to return the first one to the store for a replacement. I specifically asked the store if it was going back to Pentax for review/testing and they said no.

Same with the second body that I returned to buy K5-IIs bodies instead.

MightyMike said:

I have never had this issue and only encountered one person who had a similar issue in a K100D many years ago and yet I still took the time to bring this issue up to a Pentax service tech I know to see what light they could shed on it. have you even called Pentax service about it. or are you just destined to live out the life of the camera in hateful anger of Pentax over an issue all you care to do is complain about.

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I've linked to the reporting thread repeatedly. I've rehashed the same story a few times now. You tell me I should trust what you say like it's gospel that only one guy you know had a problem a hundred years ago, but you obviously don't take the time to read more about this issue, and can't trust that I'm not "just complaining".

I've been in touch with Pentax service constantly about the issue since NOVEMBER. I've talked to them on the phone, I emailed with them, I've tested for them, I've tried new batteries they've sent me, I've tried different brand SD cards, and different configurations of SD cards in the camera, I've communicated temperature, settings, photo EXIF, videos of the issue happening and even links to other reports of the issue... and ALL of it has been sent to Pentax Service as well as one of the district managers here in my area. I've been back and forth with them for months. I've had a ton more patience than most people here would have had. And, I've done more to solve this issue than I think Pentax has at this point. LOL

MightyMike said:

Simple life lesson, complaining never fixed anything! If is such a horrible problem so bad you can't use the camera, so bad Pentax should be embarrassed then get off your seat, get it fixed or buy another brand!!!

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I solved the problem for myself for now, again repeating myself here, by buying two K5-IIs bodies which do not have this issue. I also bought a Fuji XT1 for testing to see if it's a viable alternative. And I'm researching other brands. However, I want Pentax to fix the darn issue so that if I want to buy a Pentax camera in the future, I can do so without fear of this fault showing up again. Contrary to what you might believe, I actually like Pentax!

So since you don't know what you're talking about, maybe you shouldn't reply like you do. Get off your seat and actually read some of the detailed information about the issue that I and quite a few others have reported here on DPR and PentaxForums.com

Amy

--
Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.
on Google+... on Twitter... on Facebook
My PAD Project and My Gallery

It is a problem.

For those of us who have experienced the camera becoming inoperable or with the runaway mirror flop... it is a problem.

All of the examples Amy gave are valid. All can result in bad PR for a working photographer.

It's a problem.

And for all the things you never heard of but suppose it could happen...

Did you see the video about the skydiver that almost got hit by a meteor? What are the chances of that happening? It didn't hit him so it wasn't really a problem... and if he had been hit... it would have been a problem.

My K5 suffered from the mirror-flops bigtime. Pentax repair denied ever hearing of it when the issues began... but they somehow managed to fix the problem on my K5 by replacing a circuit board. Now the problem crops up again on the K3 and people are quick to say it is not a problem.

It appears the only people who believe it is not a problem are those who have never experienced it..... and of course to those people, it does not seem to be a problem.

Trust me... it is a big, freakin' problem.