More strange happenings

riman · Mar 25, 2014

Once again the camera is acting strangely..I posted something under Acting Strangely which said that the camera was set to A mode and ISO Auto On with preference to HI1 but set to 400 and minimum shutter speed 125..I shot a pic and the ISO stayed at 400 But the shutter speed went to 1/40..

Now I thought that had been solved.. yet today the camera acts like its in read sync all the time when I use the remote flash! Flash goes off and shutter stays open for at least a second.. I have checked and rechecked settings and still the same..

??????

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

BirgerH said:
Mako2011 said:

riman said:

The flash shutter speed was set for 1/250.....

Click to expand...

Sounds like you had flash sync speed (menu e1) set to 1/250s. That's a max not a min.

Click to expand...

No Mako - that's a min. The shortest time where it will synch And it is a max too, the highest speed

Way true! I do think strange at times...and see the "world North Up" vs "What's in front"

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

Very rare is the case you would set menu e2 that high.

Click to expand...

Yeah, can't be done - highest speed 1/60 equal shortest time

Way true again!

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

Was the SB-700 on or off camera for the 3ft wall shot? So far, from your description, things were working correctly. A shame you don't fave the out of camera shot to upload. All the data is there, including all your settings.

Click to expand...

Just to ensure you, that max can be min

Thanks bud. Always a help to have a second point of view...much appreciated.

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

riman said:
riman said:

Go to e2 and set it to 1/60. Now you have higher or equal shutterspeed than 1/60, unless the flash is not powerfull enough

Click to expand...

Well I still dont understand how I can have an SB 700 three feet from the dimly lit wall which I am shooting and the shutter speed drop to 1 second..

No - but I can.

The flash will only give you the lowest possible power to do the exposure right.

So if you set the e2 for 1 second, it will go that far Down, if the other exposure settings (aperture and in practise ISO) allows it, and only fire with very Little power. And when shooting in A, you are holding the aperture fixed, autoISO is limited to 4xbase (as far as I remember), so left is decreasing shutterspeed all the possible way Down to e2. No magic

Once Again - if you want to be in control with shutterspeed, use "S".

If you want to be in control with aperture - use "A"

If you want to be in control with both - use "M".

If you only want to control ISO, use "P".

There's a reason for the PASM to be present.

BirgerH.

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

riman said:
riman said:

Go to e2 and set it to 1/60. Now you have higher or equal shutterspeed than 1/60, unless the flash is not powerfull enough

Click to expand...

Well I still dont understand how I can have an SB 700 three feet from the dimly lit wall which I am shooting and the shutter speed drop to 1 second..

Because you are likely in iTTL-BL and it's trying to balance the background (none there) with the subject (the wall) ambient light and make it middle grey. So it turned the wall middle grey then found flash needed to be non-contributing in that case with commander and auto-ISO. Had you switched to "spot" metering (iTTL) you may have got a different result. BirgerH explains it better than I do.

riman · Mar 29, 2014

I think this explains everything..!

Could it be that in off camera flash in A or P modes the camera always uses Balanced Flash? That would explain it all..including the mystery of the wall.. It thinks the wall is background..

I am fairly sure I used both Matrix and Spot metering for the wall but at this point I cant be sure and I dont have the pics to examine...

But either way..if we assume the camera is using balanced flash all the mystery disappears..

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

riman said:
I think this explains everything..!

Could it be that in off camera flash in A or P modes the camera always uses Balanced Flash?

Have you read any of the links I pointed to? Some big hints in there. Or you could simply start with the note on the bottom of page 119 in your D7100 manual. It gives you the answer. More info that might be relevant on page 123

riman said:
That would explain it all..including the mystery of the wall.. It thinks the wall is background..

or there was no background...hard to figure out what it was "thinking" but some good clues indeed.

riman said:
I am fairly sure I used both Matrix and Spot metering for the wall but at this point I cant be sure and I dont have the pics to examine...

Hard to say...memory is often unreliable.

riman said:
But either way..if we assume the camera is using balanced flash all the mystery disappears..

Correct...as noted much earlier in a hint or two.

riman · Mar 29, 2014

Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera... Maybe you could check that out and see what happens..

Maybe its different off camera than when on camera..Maybe??

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

riman said:
Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera... Maybe you could check that out and see what happens..

Maybe its different off camera than when on camera..Maybe??

Looks like it iTTL vs iTTL-BL (with SB-700 on or off) is being driven by metering mode. I think you can override and go into iTTL in matrix with the SB-910 though. Not sure it worth the money as you can get same "results" just shooting in manual flash modes.

Flash can be so dang tricky in the auto-modes

riman · Mar 29, 2014

YOu say "Flash can be so dang tricky in the auto-modes"

Yes it certainly is and now a fully realize why some shooters just use manual mode..:-D

One question..and maybe this should be another thread...what is the practical difference between regular Balanced Flash and Rear Sync? I know how they operate but isnt the result the same in both cases?

Think that question deserves a new thread..

riman · Mar 29, 2014

Meant to say Slow Sync cant edit because I have already reached the limit ..

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

riman said:
Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera

No - when spotmetering, there will be no ambient light to balance - in nature, as long as you are spotmetering your subject.

The flash meters centerweighted, no matter if it is TTL or TTL-BL, see

http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.dk/2009/10/does-moving-focus-points-affect-flash.html

It would make no sense talking about spotmetering and Balancing Fill-flash.

When you have the SB700 off the camera, it is the settings for the inbuild flash (commander mode) that decides the settings for the slave (SB-700). The camera uses nothing, that you have not set it up to.

riman said:
... Maybe you could check that out and see what happens..

Maybe its different off camera than when on camera..Maybe??

BirgerH.

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

riman said:
Meant to say Slow Sync cant edit because I have already reached the limit ..

I don't know, what you mean with "Slow Synch", but balancing flash is about balance the ratio between ambient light and the flash-light, i.e to fill in light on a subject, that is darker than the back-ground light - and by communicate with the camera-metering ensure, that a lighter subject, than the background is not being overexposed.

Nothing to do with sync - and nothing to do with the troubles, you had. Actually, shutterspeed is not a flash-parameter, as long you are using shutterspeeds slower than the AutoFP highspeed synch. The shutterspeed will interfere at the background exposure only.

BirgerH.

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

BirgerH said:
riman said:

Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera

Click to expand...

No - when spotmetering, there will be no ambient light to balance - in nature, as long as you are spotmetering your subject.

The flash meters centerweighted, no matter if it is TTL or TTL-BL, see

http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.dk/2009/10/does-moving-focus-points-affect-flash.html

"These images prove that moving the focus point does not affect flash metering in either TTL or TTL-BL flash modes. The change in exposure that has been observed in TTL-BL mode when moving focus points is due entirely to the change in focus distance as reported by the D lens"

But that was all written in 2009 using a D3 and SB-600. He's changing flash iTTL-BL vs iTTL on the flash not the camera. Nikon changed things a bit with the D7000 and on...so Matrix and center weighted always means iTTL-BL with g/D lenses and iTTL with Spot (SB-700) unless you have a SB-910 and override. Wonder how the test would come out now using D7100 and SB-700.

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

Mako2011 said:
BirgerH said:

riman said:

Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera

Click to expand...

No - when spotmetering, there will be no ambient light to balance - in nature, as long as you are spotmetering your subject.

The flash meters centerweighted, no matter if it is TTL or TTL-BL, see

http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.dk/2009/10/does-moving-focus-points-affect-flash.html

Click to expand...

"These images prove that moving the focus point does not affect flash metering in either TTL or TTL-BL flash modes. The change in exposure that has been observed in TTL-BL mode when moving focus points is due entirely to the change in focus distance as reported by the D lens"

But that was all written in 2009 using a D3 and SB-600. He's changing flash iTTL-BL vs iTTL on the flash not the camera. Nikon changed things a bit with the D7000 and on...so Matrix and center weighted always means iTTL-BL with g/D lenses and iTTL with Spot (SB-700) unless you have a SB-910 and override. Wonder how the test would come out now using D7100 and SB-700.

Yes Mako - that's what I was supposed to say. I'm not sure the SB910 overrides - it gives no meaning, except maybe when you are spotmetering somewhere else, than the subject, and why would you balance the subject to a spotmetered light in the background.

Maybe, if the subject was very small and light, it would prevent the flash to burn the subject off..., spotmetering the subject and CW the flash with BL.??

I remember, I tried with my Metz, but when I changed to spotmetering, as far as I remember, can't try it off now, it changed to iTTL. It was of course on the hot-shoe - as remote it will follow the commander, I expect. The Metz is fully compatible to the SB-900.

Hmm.. I don't know

BirgerH.

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

BirgerH said:
Mako2011 said:

BirgerH said:

riman said:

Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera

Click to expand...

No - when spotmetering, there will be no ambient light to balance - in nature, as long as you are spotmetering your subject.

The flash meters centerweighted, no matter if it is TTL or TTL-BL, see

http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.dk/2009/10/does-moving-focus-points-affect-flash.html

Click to expand...

"These images prove that moving the focus point does not affect flash metering in either TTL or TTL-BL flash modes. The change in exposure that has been observed in TTL-BL mode when moving focus points is due entirely to the change in focus distance as reported by the D lens"

But that was all written in 2009 using a D3 and SB-600. He's changing flash iTTL-BL vs iTTL on the flash not the camera. Nikon changed things a bit with the D7000 and on...so Matrix and center weighted always means iTTL-BL with g/D lenses and iTTL with Spot (SB-700) unless you have a SB-910 and override. Wonder how the test would come out now using D7100 and SB-700.

Click to expand...

Yes Mako - that's what I was supposed to say. I'm not sure the SB910 overrides

Last you can force it into iTTL with matrix metering according to users reporting. SB-700 doesn't have the option.

BirgerH said:
- it gives no meaning, except maybe when you are spotmetering somewhere else, than the subject, and why would you balance the subject to a spotmetered light in the background.

My thinking...haven't checked...Matrix does have exposure focus point bias without flash (I have tested for that). Since iTTL-BL relies on matrix metering and is affected by it, I would assume there would also be a focus point bias in iTTL-BL with matrix. I'll have to check some time.

BirgerH said:
Maybe, if the subject was very small and light, it would prevent the flash to burn the subject off..., spotmetering the subject and CW the flash with BL.??

I would think the bias to be very very tiny. It's not obvious when flash isn't used, except in extreme scene cases (Whit dress on left and Black suit on right). My thinking is any focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix would also be pretty small.

BirgerH said:
I remember, I tried with my Metz, but when I changed to spotmetering, as far as I remember, can't try it off now, it changed to iTTL.

That's how it's supposed to work

BirgerH said:
It was of course on the hot-shoe - as remote it will follow the commander, I expect. The Metz is fully compatible to the SB-900.

Hmm.. I don't know

Interesting

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

Mako2011 said:
BirgerH said:

Mako2011 said:

BirgerH said:

riman said:

Yes I read the links and have actually seen some of them before... and I was also familiar with the parts of the manual you referenced..

I think ..and this could be where I went wrong..either I had the camera in Matrix mode, off-camera resulting in Balanced Flash and did not realize that OR... and this is something I cannot check without the camera but you can...the camera uses Balanced Flash even with spot meteriing when the flash is taken off camera

Click to expand...

No - when spotmetering, there will be no ambient light to balance - in nature, as long as you are spotmetering your subject.

The flash meters centerweighted, no matter if it is TTL or TTL-BL, see

http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.dk/2009/10/does-moving-focus-points-affect-flash.html

Click to expand...

"These images prove that moving the focus point does not affect flash metering in either TTL or TTL-BL flash modes. The change in exposure that has been observed in TTL-BL mode when moving focus points is due entirely to the change in focus distance as reported by the D lens"

But that was all written in 2009 using a D3 and SB-600. He's changing flash iTTL-BL vs iTTL on the flash not the camera. Nikon changed things a bit with the D7000 and on...so Matrix and center weighted always means iTTL-BL with g/D lenses and iTTL with Spot (SB-700) unless you have a SB-910 and override. Wonder how the test would come out now using D7100 and SB-700.

Click to expand...

Yes Mako - that's what I was supposed to say. I'm not sure the SB910 overrides

Click to expand...

Last you can force it into iTTL with matrix metering according to users reporting. SB-700 doesn't have the option.

Yes, that way it overrides - so do my Metz. I've tried that.

Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:

- it gives no meaning, except maybe when you are spotmetering somewhere else, than the subject, and why would you balance the subject to a spotmetered light in the background.

Click to expand...

My thinking...haven't checked...Matrix does have exposure focus point bias without flash (I have tested for that). Since iTTL-BL relies on matrix metering and is affected by it, I would assume there would also be a focus point bias in iTTL-BL with matrix. I'll have to check some time.

You rearly got a point. Was that bias present with the D200. Can make a difference from the article.

Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:

Maybe, if the subject was very small and light, it would prevent the flash to burn the subject off..., spotmetering the subject and CW the flash with BL.??

Click to expand...

I would think the bias to be very very tiny. It's not obvious when flash isn't used, except in extreme scene cases (Whit dress on left and Black suit on right). My thinking is any focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix would also be pretty small.

Yes, but it was only a thought, because I misunderstood your "override". I still find it no sense to BL with spotmetering.

Mako2011 said:
Mako2011 said:

I remember, I tried with my Metz, but when I changed to spotmetering, as far as I remember, can't try it off now, it changed to iTTL.

Click to expand...

That's how it's supposed to work

Mako2011 said:

It was of course on the hot-shoe - as remote it will follow the commander, I expect. The Metz is fully compatible to the SB-900.

Hmm.. I don't know

Click to expand...

Interesting

Yes - and always nice to discuess Things with you - evolving.

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

Just checked and the focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix is there. Set up a scene with left side white and right side black. In Matrix with flash (SB-700 & iTTL-BL aperture priority high ISO) you get 1/160s with focus point on far left (white side) and 1/60s with focus point on far right (black side). Scene kept centered and camera not moved. Interesting enough, in spot metering (iTTL) white side consistently gets 1/250s. That's what I would expect as you are now spot metering the point vs matrix metering the scene. Note: I did have slowest shutter speed set to 1/60s. Don't have a SB-900 to check iTTL override.

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

BirgerH said:
Mako2011 said:

BirgerH said:

BirgerH wrote:My thinking...haven't checked...Matrix does have exposure focus point bias without flash (I have tested for that). Since iTTL-BL relies on matrix metering and is affected by it, I would assume there would also be a focus point bias in iTTL-BL with matrix. I'll have to check some time.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You rearly got a point. Was that bias present with the D200. Can make a difference from the article.

Different models had different bias. Not sure about early ones but D80 was the worst and toned down with D7000/D7100K. Also, the bias can be mitigated a lot with AF-Area mode. "single" has the most and dynamic modes far less.

BirgerH said:
BirgerH said:

BirgerH said:

Maybe, if the subject was very small and light, it would prevent the flash to burn the subject off..., spotmetering the subject and CW the flash with BL.??

Click to expand...

I would think the bias to be very very tiny. It's not obvious when flash isn't used, except in extreme scene cases (Whit dress on left and Black suit on right). My thinking is any focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix would also be pretty small.

Click to expand...

Yes, but it was only a thought, because I misunderstood your "override". I still find it no sense to BL with spotmetering.

I agree. When I switch to spot I want consistency based on subject...seems to be what I get. Nice to be able to turn off the Nikon thinking algorithms

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

Mako2011 said:
Just checked and the focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix is there. Set up a scene with left side white and right side black. In Matrix with flash (SB-700 & iTTL-BL aperture priority high ISO) you get 1/160s with focus point on far left (white side) and 1/60s with focus point on far right (black side). Scene kept centered and camera not moved. Interesting enough, in spot metering (iTTL) white side consistently gets 1/250s. That's what I would expect as you are now spot metering the point vs matrix metering the scene. Note: I did have slowest shutter speed set to 1/60s. Don't have a SB-900 to check iTTL override.

Mako2011 · Mar 29, 2014

BirgerH said:
Mako2011 said:

Just checked and the focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix is there. Set up a scene with left side white and right side black. In Matrix with flash (SB-700 & iTTL-BL aperture priority high ISO) you get 1/160s with focus point on far left (white side) and 1/60s with focus point on far right (black side). Scene kept centered and camera not moved. Interesting enough, in spot metering (iTTL) white side consistently gets 1/250s. That's what I would expect as you are now spot metering the point vs matrix metering the scene. Note: I did have slowest shutter speed set to 1/60s. Don't have a SB-900 to check iTTL override.

Click to expand...

BirgerH · Mar 29, 2014

Mako2011 said:
BirgerH said:

Mako2011 said:

Just checked and the focus point bias with iTTL-BL and matrix is there. Set up a scene with left side white and right side black. In Matrix with flash (SB-700 & iTTL-BL aperture priority high ISO) you get 1/160s with focus point on far left (white side) and 1/60s with focus point on far right (black side). Scene kept centered and camera not moved. Interesting enough, in spot metering (iTTL) white side consistently gets 1/250s. That's what I would expect as you are now spot metering the point vs matrix metering the scene. Note: I did have slowest shutter speed set to 1/60s. Don't have a SB-900 to check iTTL override.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

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