SD9 vs. 10D?

Dominic Groß · Jun 7, 2003

Lin Evans said:
Chadmaniaus said:

Hi! I'm fairly new to the DSLR world, but have been doing lots of
homework the past week. I'm on the fence between the SD9 or the
Canon 10D. I've read a lot of the forum postings, reviews and
spent about 15min on the phone earlier with Sigma. Just thought
I'd see if anyone recently went through this process as well and
what was the final selling point. Thanks!

Chad

Click to expand...

Hi Chad,
Both are excellent cameras. Versatility and high ISO honors go to
the 10D, pixel level image sharpness, color corectness and lack of
color moire honors go to the SD9.

Which is "better" can't be stipulated, only which is "better" for a
particular task. If your needs run toward shooting wildlife in the
deep, dark forests in dim early morning or late evening light where
you can't work with decent shutter speeds at less than ISO 800 -
the choice is clear - 10D.

If you expect to shoot in reasonably good light with fast lenses
and want crisp, clean landscapes or architecture without the need
to spend a good deal of time in PhotoShop, the choice is also clear

SD9.

The new PhotoPro has greatly improved some of the noise issues with
the SD9 and make it much more attractive to the average shooter. I
really miss my SD9, but since I have a pretty large collection of
Canon and Nikon lenses, the 10D filled the nich between my 1D, 1Ds
and D30. I'm definitely considering purchasing another SD9 for that
very "special" quality which just isn't there in the Bayer cameras
until you get to the very expensive top end of the pro level. I
think the few landscapes I shot with my SD9 rival what I get from
my 1Ds, at least for medium sized prints.

The SD9 is a lot of camera, and if you have no previous investment
in lenses and don't need the high ISO capabilities, it can be a
real sweet performer as you have undoubtedly seen from the images
on the SD9 galleries.

Best regards,

Lin
--
http://208.56.82.71

--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page

ICQ UIN: 289647506

Lin Evans · Jun 8, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
Lin,

Nice to see you here again. Your words have always had a calming
effect on these pixelated waters.

Your former SD9 is doing very well. In fact, it is the most
trouble-free camera I could imagine. Image quality is outstanding,
no battery problems, still the same old dust but nothing that
doesn't remind me of nice it is not to touch up a print, and good
functionality in every other way.

My hope is you'll get another and start to give us some more of
your blue skies.

Best,

Laurence

Hi Laurence,

It's great to hear that everything is working well. I really will eventually get another SD9 because I think it holds a tremendous amount of potential, especially for landscapes.

One thing I intended to do, but never had a chance to get around to (and wish someone else would do), is make a 50 megapixel or so panorama with the SD9. There are a couple sites which anyone who may be interested might want to visit. If you have a reasonably fast internet connect, take a look at the following sites. Some of these 40 megapixel images were made with a Nikon D1 (3.66 megapixels) and are absolutely incredible.

Both Brian and Max have samples which will make your mouth water, and I really believe that the SD9 could equal or best some of these incredible images. If you have the time, go through Max's gallery and see what's possible.....

http://www.caldwellphotographic.com/MosaicTutorial.html

http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/

Lin
--
http://208.56.82.71

rick decker · Jun 8, 2003

Yes Max has some tremendous stuff and really has PT down well. Of course Laurence's panorama (have you seen it?) exceeds his in terms of detail as shown on the web, and by a LARGE margin. It is simply one of the most stunning from a detail standpoint. I have done a few but nothing that can stand up to either of them yet.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16671999 50mm and tripod and about as sharp as I could get it but I am convinced I can do better next trip.

Rick
--

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home

Lin Evans · Jun 8, 2003

rick decker said:
Yes Max has some tremendous stuff and really has PT down well. Of
course Laurence's panorama (have you seen it?) exceeds his in terms
of detail as shown on the web, and by a LARGE margin. It is simply
one of the most stunning from a detail standpoint. I have done a
few but nothing that can stand up to either of them yet.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16671999 50mm and tripod and about as
sharp as I could get it but I am convinced I can do better next
trip.

Rick

Hi Rick,

I haven't seen Laurence's panorama, I'll have to take a look! Yours look really nice - you need to clone a tiny bit in the upper right and lower left corners, but it's nice and clean and detailed in that special way the SD9 captures!

Check out Brian's site - he has one building which is incredible, and some made from as many as 32 frames, all perspective corrected, etc. Really some masterpieces of archetectural photography.

I'll have to take a look at Laurence's image. I'm making some huge panos from my 1Ds captures, but have a spherical pano head on order and won't be able to finish until I get it. I only have a gigabyte of RAM in my development computer and I may have to go to a server to get enough RAM to handle the final stitch size.

I think the SD9 really offers tremendous potential here, especially since the noise levels are much improved with the new software. It would be nice to see someone put up a pano gallery, but unfortunately the costs for doing it right are quite high in storage. I think that's why Max's images on his site are relatively small for display purposes, but he gets some beautiful 60" prints.

Best regards,

Lin

rick decker said:
--

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home

--
http://208.56.82.71

bill sullivan · Jun 8, 2003

I downloaded them and Paul Caldwells architectural mosaics are extaordinary I even asked him at the time why he wasnt using the SD9 instead of the D1X He said the dynamidc range was inferior -- I kind of disagree in practical terms But his were one of the reasons I got the SD9 - as I look forward to doing some mosaics with it since the non resized SD9 holds detail better than anything BiLLS

rick decker · Jun 8, 2003

Thanks...I will be in the West in October so I will shoot more and will probably get a panoramic head just to make it easier. Looking forrward to seeing your work and I will check out Brians. What amazes me about Max (he's s hooting a canon now isn't he) is that he did his stuff early on and relatively recently with a coolpix and a minolta.

Rick

Lin Evans said:
rick decker said:

Yes Max has some tremendous stuff and really has PT down well. Of
course Laurence's panorama (have you seen it?) exceeds his in terms
of detail as shown on the web, and by a LARGE margin. It is simply
one of the most stunning from a detail standpoint. I have done a
few but nothing that can stand up to either of them yet.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16671999 50mm and tripod and about as
sharp as I could get it but I am convinced I can do better next
trip.

Rick

Click to expand...

Hi Rick,
I haven't seen Laurence's panorama, I'll have to take a look! Yours
look really nice - you need to clone a tiny bit in the upper right
and lower left corners, but it's nice and clean and detailed in
that special way the SD9 captures!

Check out Brian's site - he has one building which is incredible,
and some made from as many as 32 frames, all perspective corrected,
etc. Really some masterpieces of archetectural photography.

I'll have to take a look at Laurence's image. I'm making some huge
panos from my 1Ds captures, but have a spherical pano head on order
and won't be able to finish until I get it. I only have a gigabyte
of RAM in my development computer and I may have to go to a server
to get enough RAM to handle the final stitch size.

I think the SD9 really offers tremendous potential here, especially
since the noise levels are much improved with the new software. It
would be nice to see someone put up a pano gallery, but
unfortunately the costs for doing it right are quite high in
storage. I think that's why Max's images on his site are relatively
small for display purposes, but he gets some beautiful 60" prints.

Best regards,

Lin

Member said:

--

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home

Click to expand...

--
http://208.56.82.71

--

.......Feel The Power.........Sigma.....SD9..........

http://www.lightreflection.com
http://www.silveroaksranch.com
http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home

Laurence Matson · Jun 8, 2003

Lin,

If you send me your ftp information by e-mail, I will be happy to send you an interesting little pano. It has pretty good detail. Also shows our house.

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

sg10 · Jun 9, 2003

Hi all,

I too am considering one of these two cameras, so hopefully the words of wisdom haven't all burned out from this fairly lengthy thread.

From the samples on dpreview, I'm leaning toward the SD-9 since, although Phil leans toward parity, I think the SD-9 images are clearly superior to the common 6MP offerings. I tend to like sharpness and accuracy, the ability to capture truly pristine images, over all around versatility.

I still have a few questions/concerns.

First is low light performance. Does the Sigma focus well in low light, and am I correct in deducing it doesn't have a resident active AF illuminator? Combined with ISO limits, can I expect to get good indoor results without a flash, or is a flash more a necessity inside? Is a bright lens a necessity?

Second is noise, the standard concern. Frankly, I was shocked to see the noise samples on this web site, and how the review concluded the SD-9 and Canon were similar. To me, the SD-9 looked phenomenally cleaner than compared to the Canon, here is the page I'm refering to...

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd9/page15.asp

What am I missing, and is noise a problem? Is ISO 400 clean enough to take true pro-SLR quality images?

Next is burst mode. Being an S602 owner looking to upgrade (and truth be told, consistently disatisfied with image quality), one thing I've come to value is its excellent 4fps burst mode (Fuji lies and calls it 5fps, since the 5th frame starts right at the beginning of the next second, but the "rate" is precisely 4fps). Is the SD-9 usable at 2 fps full res? How does the camera preview bursts before commiting them to a save, or does it at all? Smae for bracketing, can you selectively save from a group preview? Can you burst/bracket from a timer mode? What about save time following a 6 frame burst, is it excessive and can you shoot though it?

I have a 1GB Microdrive, does using one affect operating or playback speed in any good or bad way? What speed can I expect using an MD in playback mode when perusing full res previews? How long does it take to display the RAW previews?

Battery life? I have 1800mah NiMHs, what kind of camera life could I expect using those (just for comparison purposes) and does the SD-9, unlike the S602, have a useful battery meter?

Lastly, assuming anyone is still awake, would you chosethe SD-9 for wedding photography?

Thanks in advance.

Laurence Matson · Jun 9, 2003

SG10,

Frankly, you have hit on all of the weak points of the SD9, and yet I would still recommend it over the for this point:

sg10 said:
I tend to like
sharpness and accuracy, the ability to capture truly pristine
images, over all around versatility.

After that, you will have to do some work, but it will be worth it. To begin at the end:

1 I see no reason why this camera could not be used for weddings. It is basically a controlled environment, where even the harshest critics say it excels.

2 The battery posts will tell you more about what those will do for you. We have a battery guideline coming out soon from the Users Group.

3 The biggest noise problem for the SD9 is Karl Guttag. Beyond that, it appears that it can be as noise-free as the best from Canon, if not even better. Look at what Carl Rytterfalk, Dominic Gross, and others are doing. Dead issue in skillful hands IMNSHO.

4 Ditto on low-light work, although less adamantly. Look at what Kendall, Dominic, and others have done. Dying or let's say very ill issue in skillful hands IMNSHO. Good glass is always a necessity. The low-light focus capabilities are not a long suit; I use a flash wherever possible.

5 Burst mode is 2 fps at full resolution. The other numbers for other sizes in the specs are true. Again, this does not seem to be an issue for users, but it could be if needed. All bursts are saved. Once you load up the buffer, you have a wait in front of you. Again, if you can work it into your rhythm, it is not a problem. If you can't, it is. Ask Bill Sullivan for more.

6 I am not a Microdrive user and do not believe it is the best tool for the SD9 from what I have heard. Since you have it, use it but you may be happier with a similarly dimensions CF card.

This thread is so long and disjointed, you may want to start a new one with just your specific questions.

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Julio109713 · Jun 9, 2003

Thats the reason I bought it. Pure quality!

Julio

sg10 said:
Hi all,

I too am considering one of these two cameras, so hopefully the
words of wisdom haven't all burned out from this fairly lengthy
thread.

From the samples on dpreview, I'm leaning toward the SD-9 since,
although Phil leans toward parity, I think the SD-9 images are
clearly superior to the common 6MP offerings. I tend to like
sharpness and accuracy, the ability to capture truly pristine
images, over all around versatility.

I still have a few questions/concerns.

First is low light performance. Does the Sigma focus well in low
light, and am I correct in deducing it doesn't have a resident
active AF illuminator? Combined with ISO limits, can I expect to
get good indoor results without a flash, or is a flash more a
necessity inside? Is a bright lens a necessity?

Second is noise, the standard concern. Frankly, I was shocked to
see the noise samples on this web site, and how the review
concluded the SD-9 and Canon were similar. To me, the SD-9 looked
phenomenally cleaner than compared to the Canon, here is the page
I'm refering to...

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd9/page15.asp

What am I missing, and is noise a problem? Is ISO 400 clean enough
to take true pro-SLR quality images?

Next is burst mode. Being an S602 owner looking to upgrade (and
truth be told, consistently disatisfied with image quality), one
thing I've come to value is its excellent 4fps burst mode (Fuji
lies and calls it 5fps, since the 5th frame starts right at the
beginning of the next second, but the "rate" is precisely 4fps).
Is the SD-9 usable at 2 fps full res? How does the camera preview
bursts before commiting them to a save, or does it at all? Smae
for bracketing, can you selectively save from a group preview? Can
you burst/bracket from a timer mode? What about save time
following a 6 frame burst, is it excessive and can you shoot though
it?

I have a 1GB Microdrive, does using one affect operating or
playback speed in any good or bad way? What speed can I expect
using an MD in playback mode when perusing full res previews? How
long does it take to display the RAW previews?

Battery life? I have 1800mah NiMHs, what kind of camera life could
I expect using those (just for comparison purposes) and does the
SD-9, unlike the S602, have a useful battery meter?

Lastly, assuming anyone is still awake, would you chosethe SD-9 for
wedding photography?

Thanks in advance.

sg10 · Jun 9, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
SG10,

Frankly, you have hit on all of the weak points of the SD9,

I know the good points already. :^)

Laurence Matson said:
and yet
I would still recommend it over the for this point:

sg10 said:

I tend to like
sharpness and accuracy, the ability to capture truly pristine
images, over all around versatility.

Click to expand...

After that, you will have to do some work, but it will be worth it.

Thanks for the insight, that was my thinking too. I don't mind the extra work after that, kind of enjoy it actually, but I need at least a workaround, total unusability under some common conditions would probably be a show stopper.

Interestingly, my current S602 has all the same weaknesses, so I'm pretty familiar with coping/working around them. I still think its one of the best prosumer cameras, overall. Unfortunately, the one thing it lacks is the think I value most, pristine images, even if only under controlled conditions. No matter what, the camera simply can't pump out a wowified picture. It doesn't have one inside it. I know its not me, because I've achieved much better results with other machines. I initially bought an F717 (in addition, actually), and I liked its image quality just fine, but its features and ergo were bad to the point of unusability (128MB max; no usable burst mode; absolutely terrible menu design/navigation; way slow operation).

The SD-9 would sacrifice 1/2 the burst speed and 3/4s of the storage capacity (RAW only), but at least it would offer extreme rewards in the form of the best available pro quality images (in my book) and it would still be quite usuable, I'm hoping. The otherwise terrible 717 just wasn't worth the image quality improvement, and at the time it cost almost as much as the SD-9 costs now!

How would you rate the SD-9 general/overall operating speed?

Laurence Matson said:
To begin at the end:

1 I see no reason why this camera could not be used for weddings.
It is basically a controlled environment, where even the harshest
critics say it excels.

Thanks, I guess you might have to flash a bit more often though.

Laurence Matson said:
2 The battery posts will tell you more about what those will do
for you. We have a battery guideline coming out soon from the Users
Group.

Thanks.

Laurence Matson said:
3 The biggest noise problem for the SD9 is Karl Guttag. Beyond
that, it appears that it can be as noise-free as the best from
Canon, if not even better. Look at what Carl Rytterfalk, Dominic
Gross, and others are doing. Dead issue in skillful hands IMNSHO.

Any suggested links?

Is ISO 400 pro-quality from a noise perspective IYO? I'm fairly convinced the 10D is good to ISO 800, certainly ISO 400 is in bounds.

Laurence Matson said:
4 Ditto on low-light work, although less adamantly. Look at what
Kendall, Dominic, and others have done. Dying or let's say very ill
issue in skillful hands IMNSHO. Good glass is always a necessity.
The low-light focus capabilities are not a long suit; I use a flash
wherever possible.

I'm used to that now. The SD-9 has flash-based focus illumination, is that correct? Without that, some problems can be unsolvable (at least in short periods of time) as I know too well with the S602.

Laurence Matson said:
5 Burst mode is 2 fps at full resolution. The other numbers for
other sizes in the specs are true. Again, this does not seem to be
an issue for users, but it could be if needed. All bursts are
saved. Once you load up the buffer, you have a wait in front of
you. Again, if you can work it into your rhythm, it is not a
problem. If you can't, it is. Ask Bill Sullivan for more.

Any way to preview/select before saving? If not, is the switch to "review" mode quick and is deleting a single step? The F717 believe it or not took 6 (all different) switch actions to delete images that it left you no choice but to save. ...with only 128MB total too.

The S602 really, really excelled in burst speed and the handling of those images after the fact. Something I'll miss. It did take about 28 secs to save a full 5 frame burst, a buffer flush you couldn't shoot through. Proportionately less, if you cnx'd one or more of the series up front.

Laurence Matson said:
6 I am not a Microdrive user and do not believe it is the best tool
for the SD9 from what I have heard. Since you have it, use it but
you may be happier with a similarly dimensions CF card.

Thanks.

Laurence Matson said:
This thread is so long and disjointed, you may want to start a new
one with just your specific questions.

I think I'm getting a good picture, thanks.

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jun 10, 2003

bill sullivan said:
Joe you seem quite knowledgable in all things camera - have you
had a chance to try the SD9 software? I would be very interested
in your reaction to it in comparison if you have.

I tried it, but didn't take a deep dive. As far as DSLR software goes, it's very good. Right behind Nikon. A bit of speedup work, and some cleanup of the UI, and they might make the top of the list. I'd rank Fuji 3rd, and Canon last.

bill sullivan said:
I have been doing
color correction for many years. And I started using it a month or
so ago , I had heard it was good , but I was really surprised by
just how good - it just has extraordinary tonal control more than
any other thing .

A nice side effect of the amount of math one has to do to process a Foveon image, since you're doing a lot of color math, might as well do everything possible in one pass.

bill sullivan said:
Saturation has never been a problem at all - I
always try to avoid it in general when using photoshop anyway
because of what it does to the tonality of an image - but I have
generally found it to be very good when I use it in Photo Pro.

I think we have different taste in images.

bill sullivan said:
But contol over Noise reduction is another thing and it not
adressed at all in the software interface - I think that it is one
of the next frontiers for the software and it it is something that
it would be great to adress as soon as possible.

It does need something more sophisticated than what it's got. Raw file processing is where noise reduction belongs. Whatever is happening in the Foveon software (and there is some noise reduction going on, no matter what options you set) makes it more difficult to do better noise reduction farther down the line.

bill sullivan said:
Also I am a big user of the Canon G2 - But I am on a Mac do you
know of any good alternative softwares for it thanks BiLLS

Unfortunatly not. Mac philosophy is more "take what you're given". It's a triple whammy. Programming tools are less availiable on the Mac, there's a lot less users and systems than PC, and a smaller percentage of those users have programming skills. Although there are occasional surprises (like the neat free RIP) they're not the norm.

--
Ciao!

Joe

Laurence Matson · Jun 10, 2003

sg10,

Let's see if I can squeeze in a reply between Phil's server problems.

sg10 said:
Thanks for the insight, that was my thinking too. I don't mind the
extra work after that, kind of enjoy it actually, but I need at
least a workaround, total unusability under some common conditions
would probably be a show stopper.

There is not a camera on the market that does not require a workaround. These are still emerging for the SD9. My F707 sits loyally on my desk, and I was able to work well with it, but it is also a workaround camera.

Perhaps you need to be more precise on why you need burst speed. Storage capacity is now problem, really. 1 gig CF cards hold 145 raw images. Although expensive initially, compared to film, they are free after about 12 times through. It is one of those one-time pain, long-time pleasure things.

sg10 said:
How would you rate the SD-9 general/overall operating speed?

I found it a little clumsy at first, and now I don't even think about it. For the way I work, it is fast enough. Others may need more speed, but usually that means they need a 1D for sports.

sg10 said:
Thanks, I guess you might have to flash a bit more often though.

I keep saying this: photography requires light. Low-light images are a compromise from the word go. Effectively shooting in low light with any medium means engaging in tricks to enhance what is there and generate something to assist the amnesia of the viewer so that he doesn't worry about what is not there.

sg10 said:
Any suggested links?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=5296033
is a start. Otherwise, Dominic's concert shots in the Users' Gallery.

sg10 said:
Is ISO 400 pro-quality from a noise perspective IYO? I'm fairly
convinced the 10D is good to ISO 800, certainly ISO 400 is in
bounds.

Very subjective area here. I think both cameras are of equally quality once the image has been treated. The ISO 800 image from the 10D is clean after it has undergone some in-camera alchemy. The ISO 400 image from the SD9 may require some work, depending on the light available when exposed. That this is possible with the tool I prefer, Grain Surgery 2, or Neat Image, is becoming increasingly clear. With the former, you can pretty much clean it up to exactly the level you want, thereby preserving far more detail that with the buttered 10D image.

sg10 said:
The SD-9 has flash-based focus illumination,
is that correct?

There is IR assistance for flash, yes. It works OK.

sg10 said:
Any way to preview/select before saving?

No.

sg10 said:
If not, is the switch to
"review" mode quick and is deleting a single step?

Review, like startup, is virtually instantaneous. Deletion is a two-step process (select-OK), which is safer.

sg10 said:
The F717
believe it or not took 6 (all different) switch actions to delete
images that it left you no choice but to save. ...with only 128MB
total too.

With the music of the selection button to enchant you.

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Joseph S Wisniewski · Jun 10, 2003

rick decker said:
Yes your locked in but Sigma has a complete line and now, very high
quality. If you can't get the picture you want with a Sigma lens,
you need lessons in photography.

Well, I teach photography, but that's not really the point.

rick decker said:
There is absolutely no advantage
in using Canon or Nikon lenses over Sigma for any photographers.
You can argue about quality of optics and construction all you
want. Take two good photographers, give one a sigma camera and
lenses and give the other
Brand X (haha) and each will get great pictures. Of course the
Sigma ones will be sharper and have better color!

I just did a product shoot last week, large assortment of jewelry, where the "money shots" were done with the Nikon 85mm tilt/shift macro lens. I'm used to doing perspective control "shift" operations with Panorama Tools (more accurate than the perspective tools in PhotoShop, and with much better interpolators), but there is no way to simulate a "tilt" operation, as far as getting the entire subject sharp at an angle to the camera. And, as a side note, a shift lens uses 100% of your valuable sensor area, while software shift throws away some.

Now, two photographers walk into a bar...

Seriously, they're on assignment to get shots of the hot new Jazz band. The "Brand C" photographer is shooting his 50mm f1.4 wide open, and getting some pretty cool shots at 1/30 of a second. The "Brand S" photographer is wide open f2.8 1/8 of a second. Now, who's got the sharp pictures?

(sorry, but I've always wanted to use that "walk into a bar" line).

Canon has the biggest arsenal of "weapons of mass sharpness". (Hard as that is to admit for a "mostly Nikon" shooter like me). Three tilt/shift lenses. The biggest lineup of fast primes (f1.2 85mm, f1.0 50mm) and the widest assortment of image stabilized lenses. A 5x macro lens.

Both Nikon and Canon offer some amazing tools for portrait and product work, if you need the subject tack sharp, but still want a greak bokeh in the out of focus background.

rick decker said:
The only people
that are "LOCKED IN" are the Bayer shooters!!!

Food for thought!!!

Sorry Rick, I have to disagree. I'm a pretty highly skilled photographer, and there are things that I simply can't do withour the right equipment, no matter how much skill I have. And other things that I can do easier with the right gear.

--
Ciao!

Joe

sg10 · Jun 10, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
sg10,

Let's see if I can squeeze in a reply between Phil's server problems.

pbase too.

Laurence Matson said:
sg10 said:

Thanks for the insight, that was my thinking too. I don't mind the
extra work after that, kind of enjoy it actually, but I need at
least a workaround, total unusability under some common conditions
would probably be a show stopper.

Click to expand...

There is not a camera on the market that does not require a
workaround. These are still emerging for the SD9. My F707 sits
loyally on my desk, and I was able to work well with it, but it is
also a workaround camera.

Understand.

Laurence Matson said:
Perhaps you need to be more precise on why you need burst speed.

Just my experience with the S602. Its without a doubt the best thing about the cam IMO. Most of my favorite shots are actually plucked from a 5 frame series. Its amazing how the composition completely changes within one second. I know the S602 is a rare image machine gun, and I don't expect to get 5 in a sec with any pro quality DSLR, but it is something I'll miss dearly.

None of these are that stellar, I'm not a pro photographer, but they mean a lot to me. I only picked these few because I remember that each was the single keeper from a 5 frame/sec burst....

http://www.pbase.com/image/15391689
http://www.pbase.com/image/14955535
http://www.pbase.com/image/15420668
http://www.pbase.com/image/10751776
http://www.pbase.com/image/5269941
http://www.pbase.com/image/5269941

...I could link a few thousand more facilitated from fast bursts. That said, it gets way tedious going through 300-500 pics per outting (only 60-100 snaps). In a way, I'll be happy to curtail that a little.

Laurence Matson said:
Storage capacity is now problem, really. 1 gig CF cards hold 145
raw images. Although expensive initially, compared to film, they
are free after about 12 times through. It is one of those one-time
pain, long-time pleasure things.

Laurence Matson said:

How would you rate the SD-9 general/overall operating speed?

Click to expand...

I found it a little clumsy at first, and now I don't even think
about it. For the way I work, it is fast enough. Others may need
more speed, but usually that means they need a 1D for sports.

It sounds like its well designed. I especially like that you can mark for batch operations.

Laurence Matson said:
Laurence Matson said:

Thanks, I guess you might have to flash a bit more often though.

Click to expand...

I keep saying this: photography requires light. Low-light images
are a compromise from the word go. Effectively shooting in low
light with any medium means engaging in tricks to enhance what is
there and generate something to assist the amnesia of the viewer so
that he doesn't worry about what is not there.

Sure, but clean high ISO can't be worse.

Laurence Matson said:
Laurence Matson said:

Any suggested links?

Click to expand...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=5296033

Thanks, the spider shots are so great they are scary.

Laurence Matson said:
is a start. Otherwise, Dominic's concert shots in the Users' Gallery.

Laurence Matson said:

Is ISO 400 pro-quality from a noise perspective IYO? I'm fairly
convinced the 10D is good to ISO 800, certainly ISO 400 is in
bounds.

Click to expand...

Very subjective area here. I think both cameras are of equally
quality once the image has been treated. The ISO 800 image from the
10D is clean after it has undergone some in-camera alchemy. The ISO
400 image from the SD9 may require some work, depending on the
light available when exposed. That this is possible with the tool I
prefer, Grain Surgery 2, or Neat Image, is becoming increasingly
clear. With the former, you can pretty much clean it up to exactly
the level you want, thereby preserving far more detail that with
the buttered 10D image.

I do a lot of hobby image processing--have since the term was invented. Still, I'd pref not to. The main reason is time, more than results.

Seems like SD-9 shots varying greatly in noise, has the new firmware made a big difference?

Laurence Matson said:
Laurence Matson said:

The SD-9 has flash-based focus illumination,
is that correct?

Click to expand...

There is IR assistance for flash, yes. It works OK.

Thanks.

Laurence Matson said:
Laurence Matson said:

Any way to preview/select before saving?

Click to expand...

No.

Thanks.

Laurence Matson said:
Laurence Matson said:

If not, is the switch to
"review" mode quick and is deleting a single step?

Click to expand...

Review, like startup, is virtually instantaneous. Deletion is a
two-step process (select-OK), which is safer.

Sounds great.

Laurence Matson said:
Laurence Matson said:

The F717
believe it or not took 6 (all different) switch actions to delete
images that it left you no choice but to save. ...with only 128MB
total too.

Click to expand...

With the music of the selection button to enchant you.

When you get free entertainment, you know its bad.

Dominic Groß · Jun 10, 2003

sg10 said:
sg10 said:

is a start. Otherwise, Dominic's concert shots in the Users' Gallery.

sg10 said:

Is ISO 400 pro-quality from a noise perspective IYO? I'm fairly
convinced the 10D is good to ISO 800, certainly ISO 400 is in
bounds.

Click to expand...

Very subjective area here. I think both cameras are of equally
quality once the image has been treated. The ISO 800 image from the
10D is clean after it has undergone some in-camera alchemy. The ISO
400 image from the SD9 may require some work, depending on the
light available when exposed. That this is possible with the tool I
prefer, Grain Surgery 2, or Neat Image, is becoming increasingly
clear. With the former, you can pretty much clean it up to exactly
the level you want, thereby preserving far more detail that with
the buttered 10D image.

Click to expand...

I do a lot of hobby image processing--have since the term was
invented. Still, I'd pref not to. The main reason is time, more
than results.

Seems like SD-9 shots varying greatly in noise, has the new
firmware made a big difference?

I think I have to comment here

One thing you might notice that they only post very small images in the Canon SLR talk of their ISO1600 10D shoots, you won't notice the loss of detail and the noise in this small samples if we would post that downsized pictures you would not see any noise. Please don't get me wrong (this goes out to all the Canon trolls out there, especially to the jerk that mailed me off board without a name and did not reply...) in terms of noise the 10D is superior but if you consider using neatimage or grain surgery you can come quite close by sacrificing the details the 10D never showed (and won't show even at ISO100) also the noise performance of the SD9 seems to be very good if there is actually enough light (see Carls ISO1600 test) and gets worse with less availible light (but as you can see my concert shoots were underexposed 0.5-2 stops as well and they are not cleaned..)

The AF will be problematic if the whole scene is very dark (one scenario in which it refused to work was 10 sec and f4 at ISO100) this will of course be a non existant issue with the AF light of the Flash. Also ISO400 with flash seems to be pretty noise free in my tests.

Dominic

--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page

ICQ UIN: 289647506

Laurence Matson · Jun 10, 2003

sg10,

As an aside, any time Joe W. gets back on a long thread, it means he's going to drive it toward 150 fast so that he can get in the last word. He's good at it.

As with any tool, it has its strengths and weaknesses. The only perfect instrument for photography is the brain. If only its storage capacity was not so lousy and fragile in most cases.

There is something in photography called previsualization, which IMNSHO is superior to burst mode. This is a shot from that point of view:

Single shot; no burst.

I may not be very good at many things photographic, but I am not bad at anticipating when something is coming. It is harder with any SLR than with range-finder cameras.

In any case, leaving less to chance may improve your shots in time. Otherwise, you are a candidate for the 1D, and I don't mean that facetiously.

These are great shots, but I am sure you can get just as good or better with, among other cameras, the SD9. Anticipate the moment, which is easy in such situations. If necessary, click off your two instead of five.

sg10 said:
http://www.pbase.com/image/15391689
http://www.pbase.com/image/14955535
http://www.pbase.com/image/15420668
http://www.pbase.com/image/10751776
http://www.pbase.com/image/5269941
http://www.pbase.com/image/5269941

I am not sure whether clean, high ISO really exists. I know that manufacturers claim that it exists, but my eyes tell me otherwise. Recently, Dominic sent me a link from the Fuji forum of "clean" ISO 800 or 1600 shots. I think they meant, clean of detail. It is a nice effect, but very much a departure from reality.

I think the issue should be how gracefully the camera handles high ISO. Given light, the SD9 is not better. Others are definitely better out of the camera. No argument there. But like a good lab technician in film days, it is possible to get higher ISO pictures from the SD9 than its reputation says.

sg10 said:
I do a lot of hobby image processing--have since the term was
invented. Still, I'd pref not to. The main reason is time, more
than results.

We do post processing by necessity, but I don't think as much as others would imagine. I can pick and chose which images I will develop. Once you get good with the tool, it is really easy and fast.

sg10 said:
Seems like SD-9 shots varying greatly in noise, has the new
firmware made a big difference?

It has made a difference, but not too big. Others who work in more critical lighting, have reported greater improvement.

Back to Joe,

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Dominic Groß · Jun 10, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
As an aside, any time Joe W. gets back on a long thread, it means
he's going to drive it toward 150 fast so that he can get in the
last word. He's good at it.

The only way we can get this "beaten-to-death-thread" to 150 is to get some Canon trolls in here. I am quite sure that is the last thing we all want so I post this silly non-sense posting to get this thread a bit closer to 150.

Dominic
--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page

ICQ UIN: 289647506

Dominic Groß · Jun 10, 2003

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Now, two photographers walk into a bar...

Seriously, they're on assignment to get shots of the hot new Jazz
band. The "Brand C" photographer is shooting his 50mm f1.4 wide
open, and getting some pretty cool shots at 1/30 of a second. The
"Brand S" photographer is wide open f2.8 1/8 of a second. Now,
who's got the sharp pictures?

(sorry, but I've always wanted to use that "walk into a bar" line).

No excuse here for Sigma but considering that the 28mm f1.8 will be about 50mm on the SD9 this is not much of a problem. On the other hand some faster longer primes are really the gap Sigma has to fill...

--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page

ICQ UIN: 289647506

Laurence Matson · Jun 10, 2003

So that Joe can pounce. You too are in cahoots.

L

Dominic Groß said:
Laurence Matson said:

As an aside, any time Joe W. gets back on a long thread, it means
he's going to drive it toward 150 fast so that he can get in the
last word. He's good at it.

Click to expand...

The only way we can get this "beaten-to-death-thread" to 150 is to
get some Canon trolls in here. I am quite sure that is the last
thing we all want so I post this silly non-sense posting to get
this thread a bit closer to 150.

Dominic
--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page
ICQ UIN: 289647506

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

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