X-trans is a winner

Dave Luttmann said:

The D600 isnt aps-c

Click to expand...

Format not relevant, only pixel pitch.

The Davinator said:

57even said:

Dave Luttmann said:

Don't get me wrong....I love e Xtrans sensor. But at f9, no sensor will have moire.

Click to expand...

Sure not true on my D600.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Graham Hill said:

vivanchenko said:

dotborg said:

vivanchenko said:

Graham Hill said:

vivanchenko said:

That picture is stunning.

The OP did not say that the image is moiré free. I would say that he sounded more like that moiré is not a problem there. And it obviously not.

I believe that trying to persuade most photographers that X-Trans is a superior to Bayer technology is a lost cause even if X-Trans was running circles around Bayer (it's not, it is just slightly better). And the reason is ...... Leica. Leica is not using X-Trans and we all know that nothing can be better than Leica. Trying to prove otherwise is a sacrilege.

Click to expand...

Pentax, Ricoh, and Nikon do not use AA filters either on some cameras. They get along just fine.

X Trans is just another one of Fujifilm's patented marketing gimmicks.

Click to expand...

Judging by that post you are obviously jumping on conclusions without understanding that X-Tans is not only about going without AA filter, it is also about placing color filters in a more natural way which has a number of subtle, but desirable consequences.

Click to expand...

LOL8.

Click to expand...

What's so lol about that? Could you, please, be more specific? Would be helpful for those who read this thread. Most photographers who are well familiar with X-Trans cameras say that X-Trans produces more natural grain.

Click to expand...

X Trans does not produce grain. This is an invention.

Click to expand...

OK, let's rephrase it for purists - X-Trans CFA affects grain formation. The result is more likable to many photographers grain.

Graham Hill said:

Graham Hill said:

It is easy to see why. Haven't seen anyone yet who disputed this. X-Trans also leads to different treatment of colors which so many people love.

Click to expand...

X Trans has nothing to do with color output. The sensor is just an off the shelf Sony sensor fitted with Fujifilm's custom CFA. ALL Fujifilm cameras have their distinct color profiles.

Click to expand...

I disagree. X-Trans is in essence a Color Filter Array and it affects color reproduction directly. X-Trans CFA is unique to Fuji cameras. A custom CFA, but what exactly is custom there - array (arrangement), color filter (material, its properties), or both? How do you know? A photo sensor captures little or no color (wavelength) information. Color information is captured by color filter. Saying that color filter has nothing to do with color output sounds like saying nonsense.

Graham Hill said:

Graham Hill said:

Those might be side effects and not something Fuji was aiming at when they were developing X-Trans. Nevertheless the side effects are there and they are desirable.

Click to expand...

They are not side effects but are the results of Fujifilm's vision. Vision that is a distinct relative to their film legacy.

Click to expand...

How do you know? All I heard from Fuji about X-Trans was in essence that more "natural" arrangement of color filters allows to get rid of LPOF. Nature has no LPOF. I never heard they intended to achieve more natural grain pattern.

vivanchenko said:

BarnET said:

Dave Luttmann said:

Graham Hill said:

vivanchenko said:

That picture is stunning.

The OP did not say that the image is moiré free. I would say that he sounded more like that moiré is not a problem there. And it obviously not.

I believe that trying to persuade most photographers that X-Trans is a superior to Bayer technology is a lost cause even if X-Trans was running circles around Bayer (it's not, it is just slightly better). And the reason is ...... Leica. Leica is not using X-Trans and we all know that nothing can be better than Leica. Trying to prove otherwise is a sacrilege.

Click to expand...

Pentax, Ricoh, and Nikon do not use AA filters either on some cameras. They get along just fine.

X Trans is just another one of Fujifilm's patented marketing gimmicks.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it's a gimic. It does seems to exhibit less moire than bayer sensors do.

Click to expand...

It has less moiré as bayer sensors WITHOUT an AA filter.

I has about the same or slighlty worse moiré issues then those who do. It does yield sharper crispier results as camera's with an AA filter.

The X-trans main advantage seems to be low light. The high ISO noise is mostly monochromatic and very fine of structure. Much like film grain that isn't as annoying and easier to get rid of in post.

So the X-trans is an marketing name. but no gimmick. it's probably the best Apsc sensor out there. But differences to the 24mp Toshiba are very subtle and small. It does destroy everything canon has produced so would not call it gimicky.

Click to expand...

Can we see an example? All we see is many words.

Click to expand...

That's funny coming from someone who is all talk and has never posted a single example to support his claims. When people answer your requests for proof, you then accuse them of unfairly manipulating the images. Do you just come on the forum to praise your specific model of camera and argue with others, or do you have something worthwhile to contribute? We all have access to Fuji's web site, so we don't need you to blindly repeat everything you read on the X-M1 advertising pages.

OK, not grain, but regardless of how it is termed this looks pleasing:

BarnET said:

light. The high ISO noise is mostly monochromatic and very fine of structure. Much like film grain that isn't as annoying and easier to get rid of in post.

Click to expand...

Wishful thinking. http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3509778
It only helps to implement some kind of NR which is quite effective and still easy to compute: good candidate for OOC processing. Still, not the level of DxO PRIME IQ wise. In other words, you will end up with lower noise using DxO software for 16Mp APS-C sony sensor powered camera.

Randy, I gave you excellent examples proving my point when we discussed x-trans previously. The only problem you had with them was that those samples were not shot by me personally. You seem to forget that it is not me who we are discussing in this forum, it's X-Trans. Who cares who made those samples? The thing is that you failed to demonstrate your point with randomly selected set of samples.

And what I am saying is at least based on information provided by manufacture. Many statements made by others, like x-trans has RAW level noise reduction are based on nothing at all.

vivanchenko said:

OK, not grain, but regardless of how it is termed this looks pleasing:

Click to expand...

And if it is not grain, could somebody tell, please, what is the right term for it?

OK, it is luminance noise, and it looks good!

vivanchenko said:

Randy, I gave you excellent examples proving my point when we discussed x-trans previously. The only problem you had with them was that those samples were not shot by me personally. You seem to forget that it is not me who we are discussing in this forum, it's X-Trans. Who cares who made those samples? The thing is that you failed to demonstrate your point with randomly selected set of samples.

And what I am saying is at least based on information provided by manufacture. Many statements made by others, like x-trans has RAW level noise reduction are based on nothing at all.

Click to expand...

I believe it is almost common knowledge now that the demosaicing procedures for the X-Trans CFA, by their very nature, do reduce color noise. That much has been said by at least one developer of a raw processor. Don't hold me to it, though, I do not have access to any papers that show that unequivocally, but the notion is floating around quite persistently. Nobody says, though, that the noise reduction is done on top of demosaicing, but rather it is rolled into it, as a side effect, sot to say. I do not know whether it is possible to demosaic the X-Trans CFA without any such serendipitous noise reduction.

vivanchenko said:

OK, it is luminance noise, and it looks good!

Click to expand...

Compared to what?

You should not expect much luminance noise from any APS-C camera at ISO 400. Since your argument is X-Trans is superior to Bayer, your posted example is missing a key component - the comparison image.

nixda said:

vivanchenko said:

Randy, I gave you excellent examples proving my point when we discussed x-trans previously. The only problem you had with them was that those samples were not shot by me personally. You seem to forget that it is not me who we are discussing in this forum, it's X-Trans. Who cares who made those samples? The thing is that you failed to demonstrate your point with randomly selected set of samples.

And what I am saying is at least based on information provided by manufacture. Many statements made by others, like x-trans has RAW level noise reduction are based on nothing at all.

Click to expand...

I believe it is almost common knowledge now that the demosaicing procedures for the X-Trans CFA, by their very nature, do reduce color noise. That much has been said by at least one developer of a raw processor. Don't hold me to it, though, I do not have access to any papers that show that unequivocally, but the notion is floating around quite persistently. Nobody says, though, that the noise reduction is done on top of demosaicing, but rather it is rolled into it, as a side effect, sot to say. I do not know whether it is possible to demosaic the X-Trans CFA without any such serendipitous noise reduction.

Click to expand...

If this is the case then those who say that X-Trans cameras produce less noise because Fuji incorporates demosaicing NR are wrong, because I understand most other camera manufacturers are doing the same thing.

I read articles like this quite a long time ago: http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/155038/267_lowlight.pdf

But I wasn't aware that something like this is a wildly utilized technique.