SD9 vs. 10D?

Yakuza! · Jun 6, 2003

Until seeing this post, I had seen nothing that showed the SD9 producing anything much better than the 10D. And even if there was a slight sharpness improvement, the noise issue is too big a problem. But, if I just needed sharp color test chart photo's, I definitely would get the SD9!!!

Look at this link!

Dominic Groß said:
And if someone (Stephen?) has some concerns about only 3mp or equal resolution of > 6 mp and 3mp foveon this person should have a look here:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/artofraw/raw_05/essay.html

Erik Magnuson · Jun 6, 2003

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
I have had no problems at all with any shades of green (especially
deep ones, which I prefer) from the SD9. You are really barking up
the wrong tree there.

Well, Phil thought it was an issue on the color chart and the lime in his test photos. Several other users and reviewers have commented on this as well. It's possible that your camera does better or just that you don't find the difference significant or noticable.

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
I'm still not convinced skintones have
general issues, but I don't take a lot of pictures of people so
I'll resist further comment.

This has been an oft-stated X3 criticism since the 1st Foveon samples (e.g. the boxer photo). It showed up in the sample photos from both Phil and the Sigma photographer at Photokina. In the SD9 review sample gallery studio portrait of Phil's wife, he used 1C+2M adjustment. Compare that to the one in the 10D gallery (with no color adjustment).

Anyway, this has all been said many times before. Neither camera is perfect and it mainly comes down to personal preference. I'll try and give it a rest and stay out of the "my camera is better than yours" threads in the future.

--
Erik

Hej · Jun 6, 2003

You misread his camera. He stated that he could always apply anti-aliasing after taking the picture, not that he could remove it.

-Erik

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
No, you can't. It's basic signal processing. Once you've got
aliasing, you can't tell the difference between it and real detail
so you can't remove it.

--
Ciao!

Joe

--
Find a job you like doing, and you'll never have to work a day in your life.

whiteOrangedesign · Jun 6, 2003

Actually there are quite a few apps that apply an anti-alias algorithm. It's not that difficult for software to recognize a stair stepped diagonal pattern. Not to mention a simple upsize and then downsize in Photoshop will give that soft Bayer look.

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
whiteOrangedesign said:

I like the fact that it doesn't anti-alias the images. I
can always do that later if I want to.

Click to expand...

No, you can't. It's basic signal processing. Once you've got
aliasing, you can't tell the difference between it and real detail
so you can't remove it.

--
Ciao!

Joe

--

http://www.whiteorangedesign.com/

Laurence Matson · Jun 7, 2003

Erik,

I think you ignore the fact that people are capable of learning. Just as Mr. Ward has learned a complex series of contortions to get sharp images from a basically blurry instrument ( http://www.pbase.com/mward/10d_test_pics ), many SD9 users have moved beyond the status quo of Phil's tests and Photokina.

My point was precisely the opposite of this:

Erik Magnuson said:
The whole point of the SD9 is that you do the heavy tweaking in
PhotoPro and not Photoshop ;-)

This just does not hold true, at least for meine Wenigkeit. What I find remarkable is how little fiddling in SPP I do now. Either I am lazy or the pictures are better, because I have (re)learned how to meter well, among other things. For whatever reason, the entire process is smoother and faster.

Factors that may have brought this about:

I am capable of learning
I trust the program more
Foveon and Sigma tweaked the program and firmware very well
I am dealing with spring and summer light, which is always easier to work with than winter light

I find that too much fiddling, which I may have done at the beginning, combined with poor metering lead to a real muck up.

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Erik Magnuson · Jun 7, 2003

Laurence Matson said:
I think you ignore the fact that people are capable of learning.

No, I did not ignore this. With experience (both personal and communal), you learn to adapt to a camera's strengths and quirks. But since this applies to both the SD9 and the 10D equally, it's not a distinguishing feature.

Laurence Matson said:
My point was precisely the opposite of this:

The PhotoPro comment was meant to be humorous and a sideways complement that the in-the-box software for the SD9 is better than the 10Ds.

--
Erik

Rytterfalk · Jun 7, 2003

Erik Magnuson said:
Dominic Groß said:

Consider that according to the Canon gang the X3 is the one that
has the Color issues and the Canons have no problems at all.

Click to expand...

It depends on what you like to photograph. Dark greens and
skintones are perhaps more obvious and possibly more common colors
than desert sand or deep blue flowers. (Not to mention blue skies.)

Are you sure about this?!

This image is straight out from camera, nothing done except for saving and adding borde and sign in PS.. I would NOT say the camera has problems with skintones.. I shot people 80% of the time.. and they print GREAT!

Member said:
Member said:

It is
a point every time again that the SD9 images need heavy (PS)
tweaking

Click to expand...

The whole point of the SD9 is that you do the heavy tweaking in
PhotoPro and not Photoshop ;-)

Member said:

Do you think outbackphoto is only posting the
comparisons where the X3 was better? I don't think so.

Click to expand...

You have to ask Uwe that question. In previous threads,
he's resisted the notion that those examples provide evidence of
any general superiority.

--
Erik

--
Carl Rytterfalk
http://www.pbase.com/rytterfalk
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/carl_rytterfalk
ICQ: 529507, Yahoo: Rytterfalk, MSN: [email protected]
Proud SD9 owner.

Ladehaug · Jun 7, 2003

Stephen Waits said:
Now had the SD9 come out with a 6Mp X3 chip; well then Sigma &
Foveon would have gotten it right the first time.

Then it should have been full frame as well. Of course, the CFA sensors that entered the marked several years ago should have been 6Mp, 11Mp etc as well...

The point is, at this quality, 3Mp is sufficient for most people.

-
Geir

D60 image downsized to fit the size of the SD9 image. Equal amounts of USM applied. Which one is looking better?

Ladehaug · Jun 7, 2003

Dominic Groß said:
Well not for the colors, after this hue/saturation profile appeared
the whole canon gang was shouting that we could only get a good
picture after heavy color tweaking in PS because our WB is still
off after SPP and because we have all kinds of wrong colors....

ok a bit exagerated , but you get what I mean...

Well, we have proven that it is possible to get the colors very close to accurate. It is my visual opinion that the color profile I've made seem to work very well for most pictures, in a lesser or greater degree. It is all about setting the correct white balance initially, and then apply it, using a proper value of strength. Unfortunately, it requires PS. It is my hope that future versions of PhotoPro will be introduced with a "smart" utility to do these adjustments.

I have said it before, and it's important to understand that the initial color balance of the SD9 images is generally very good. It might be wrong to call it color balance, but what I mean, is that the colors are not too "compressed" or separated initially, which makes it easier to do adjustments when there is a necessity for it. The need for adjustments can vary, it will depend on the initial exposure and the final exposure compensation in PhotoPro. It is important that the initial color balance is not too compressed/separated, because the result might be irreversible if it is compressed too much.

-
Geir

Erik Magnuson · Jun 7, 2003

Rytterfalk said:
Erik Magnuson wrote:
Are you sure about this?!

Well, I pointed out several older examples where it's obvious. Perhaps the latest version of the firmware/Photopro has improved this issue. One example in isolation is not conclusive either way.

--
Erik

Laurence Matson · Jun 7, 2003

Erik,

Then, given that you accept that one can learn to work with a tool, you thereby negate the point of criticism.

I realize that much of what I am saying is not directed at you particularly, but the general tone of the early rushes on this camera was "pretty nice try Sigma and Foveon, but fix this". And then the reviewer made his list.

What has been shown recently be Carl Rytterfalk is that noise can actually be handled much more gracefully than in the S2, the current world champ, if you know how to use the tools. This as an example.

Of course, you can come back and say that the S2 has it straight out of the camera. I would reply that the Foveon approach from the beginning was in the direction of the digital darkroom and Carl's efforts fit right in with that.

We can pursue this quite far, but I think you get my gist. The limits found early on have been addressed from two quarters: the manufacturers and the users. The early reviewers provoked the former and did not have the time of the latter.

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Dominic Groß · Jun 7, 2003

Yakuza! said:
But, if I just needed sharp color test chart photo's, I
definitely would get the SD9!!!

Thank you for ignoring my comments on this. Do you really think the World is B&W? You make images of a colored world and therefore you should be interested in the "color resolution" your Sensor can produce....

--
http://www.domgross.de
please don't run away because of the cheap design of the first page

ICQ UIN: 289647506

Laurence Matson · Jun 7, 2003

Yakuza! and others,

Perhaps you misunderstand Dominic's point in linking this and Uwe's point in doing this.

The black and white charts are standard in the industry to show a particular type of resolution. Uwe wanted to show the advantage of the Foveon-technology sensor with a color chart. This sensor claims to have true color pixels as opposed to some true color and some guess-color as is the case in the Bayer sensor.

That the Foveon-technology sensor should be superior to the Bayer sensor on such a chart should come as no surprise. Theoretically, it should be able to resolve down to the width of a single image-gathering point.

I can't see where this is difficult to understand, but perhaps others will help me.

Laurence

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Gillis Danielsen · Jun 7, 2003

and another expirienced troll who makes hes own decisions without knowing a gram of truth... please don't accuse me of things that are'nt true...

i wont even start an arguement with a moro.n like you....

Laurence Matson said:
Thanks for you insightful report after using the camera, its
software, and that sensor.

Keep us posted on how your sharpening is going. Just in case you
need some reference points:

http://www.pbase.com/mward/10d_test_pics

Laurence

Gillis Danielsen said:

Actually im still not sure if i would have taken the sigma...
tehres so much bugs in it and the x3 sensor still doesent convince
me since its so bad in all other aspects then the sharpness of a
100% crop.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Laurence Matson · Jun 7, 2003

Gillis,

Can you tell me that? You are basing a statement on zero experience with the product, make a blanket generalization unfounded on anything you seem to have worked with, and yet I am the troll.

If you have worked with the camera, I appologize. If not, stop making statements about something that you don't know and which is blatantly not true.

Laurence

Gillis Danielsen said:
i wont even start an arguement with a moro.n like you....

Laurence Matson said:

Thanks for you insightful report after using the camera, its
software, and that sensor.

Keep us posted on how your sharpening is going. Just in case you
need some reference points:

http://www.pbase.com/mward/10d_test_pics

Laurence

Gillis Danielsen said:

Actually im still not sure if i would have taken the sigma...
tehres so much bugs in it and the x3 sensor still doesent convince
me since its so bad in all other aspects then the sharpness of a
100% crop.

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Mats Neander · Jun 7, 2003

Ladehaug said:
Stephen Waits said:

Now had the SD9 come out with a 6Mp X3 chip; well then Sigma &
Foveon would have gotten it right the first time.

Click to expand...

Then it should have been full frame as well. Of course, the CFA
sensors that entered the marked several years ago should have been
6Mp, 11Mp etc as well...

The point is, at this quality, 3Mp is sufficient for most people.

-
Geir

D60 image downsized to fit the size of the SD9 image. Equal amounts
of USM applied. Which one is looking better?

--
Mats N

EOS600/SigmaEX17-35/EF28-85/EF70-200.4L/EOSIX/KonicaAutoreflexTCwHexanon40mmF1,8/CanonetQL17/RicohFF1s

Hehe, SD9 looks to win hands down, should I judge from your example.

Lin Evans · Jun 7, 2003

Chadmaniaus said:
Hi! I'm fairly new to the DSLR world, but have been doing lots of
homework the past week. I'm on the fence between the SD9 or the
Canon 10D. I've read a lot of the forum postings, reviews and
spent about 15min on the phone earlier with Sigma. Just thought
I'd see if anyone recently went through this process as well and
what was the final selling point. Thanks!

Chad

Hi Chad,

Both are excellent cameras. Versatility and high ISO honors go to the 10D, pixel level image sharpness, color corectness and lack of color moire honors go to the SD9.

Which is "better" can't be stipulated, only which is "better" for a particular task. If your needs run toward shooting wildlife in the deep, dark forests in dim early morning or late evening light where you can't work with decent shutter speeds at less than ISO 800 - the choice is clear - 10D.

If you expect to shoot in reasonably good light with fast lenses and want crisp, clean landscapes or architecture without the need to spend a good deal of time in PhotoShop, the choice is also clear - SD9.

The new PhotoPro has greatly improved some of the noise issues with the SD9 and make it much more attractive to the average shooter. I really miss my SD9, but since I have a pretty large collection of Canon and Nikon lenses, the 10D filled the nich between my 1D, 1Ds and D30. I'm definitely considering purchasing another SD9 for that very "special" quality which just isn't there in the Bayer cameras until you get to the very expensive top end of the pro level. I think the few landscapes I shot with my SD9 rival what I get from my 1Ds, at least for medium sized prints.

The SD9 is a lot of camera, and if you have no previous investment in lenses and don't need the high ISO capabilities, it can be a real sweet performer as you have undoubtedly seen from the images on the SD9 galleries.

Best regards,

Lin
--
http://208.56.82.71

Laurence Matson · Jun 7, 2003

Lin,

Nice to see you here again. Your words have always had a calming effect on these pixelated waters.

Your former SD9 is doing very well. In fact, it is the most trouble-free camera I could imagine. Image quality is outstanding, no battery problems, still the same old dust but nothing that doesn't remind me of nice it is not to touch up a print, and good functionality in every other way.

My hope is you'll get another and start to give us some more of your blue skies.

Best,

Laurence

Lin Evans said:
Chadmaniaus said:

Hi! I'm fairly new to the DSLR world, but have been doing lots of
homework the past week. I'm on the fence between the SD9 or the
Canon 10D. I've read a lot of the forum postings, reviews and
spent about 15min on the phone earlier with Sigma. Just thought
I'd see if anyone recently went through this process as well and
what was the final selling point. Thanks!

Chad

Click to expand...

Hi Chad,
Both are excellent cameras. Versatility and high ISO honors go to
the 10D, pixel level image sharpness, color corectness and lack of
color moire honors go to the SD9.

Which is "better" can't be stipulated, only which is "better" for a
particular task. If your needs run toward shooting wildlife in the
deep, dark forests in dim early morning or late evening light where
you can't work with decent shutter speeds at less than ISO 800 -
the choice is clear - 10D.

If you expect to shoot in reasonably good light with fast lenses
and want crisp, clean landscapes or architecture without the need
to spend a good deal of time in PhotoShop, the choice is also clear

SD9.

The new PhotoPro has greatly improved some of the noise issues with
the SD9 and make it much more attractive to the average shooter. I
really miss my SD9, but since I have a pretty large collection of
Canon and Nikon lenses, the 10D filled the nich between my 1D, 1Ds
and D30. I'm definitely considering purchasing another SD9 for that
very "special" quality which just isn't there in the Bayer cameras
until you get to the very expensive top end of the pro level. I
think the few landscapes I shot with my SD9 rival what I get from
my 1Ds, at least for medium sized prints.

The SD9 is a lot of camera, and if you have no previous investment
in lenses and don't need the high ISO capabilities, it can be a
real sweet performer as you have undoubtedly seen from the images
on the SD9 galleries.

Best regards,

Lin
--
http://208.56.82.71

--
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Ladehaug · Jun 7, 2003

-
Geir

Rytterfalk · Jun 7, 2003

Well, I'm VERY pleased with 50% of my skintone, the other 50% works great after Geirs fix. (take's a sek to apply, play action)

And that's about it.

You should try before judgeing!!

Erik Magnuson said:
Rytterfalk said:

Erik Magnuson wrote:
Are you sure about this?!

Click to expand...

Well, I pointed out several older examples where it's obvious.
Perhaps the latest version of the firmware/Photopro has improved
this issue. One example in isolation is not conclusive either way.

--
Erik

--
Carl Rytterfalk
http://www.pbase.com/rytterfalk
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/carl_rytterfalk
ICQ: 529507, Yahoo: Rytterfalk, MSN: [email protected]
Proud SD9 owner.

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