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Digital viewfinder lag

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zackiedawg said:
There are a lot of figures about lag time in milliseconds between different types of cameras, and defense of EVFs by those who use them, and counter-arguments for OVFs by those who use them. I can't say whose figures, if any, are correct, or honestly whether any of those figures really address your question.

So here's how I'll try to put it, as someone who shoots lots of bird-in-flight shots with two different cameras, one a DSLR with an OVF and the other a mirrorless with an EVF.

First, there's not a black-and-white, one can do it and the other can't, answer as many want to argue there is. BOTH types can be used for action/movement/panning. Leaving out other factors, and assuming focus systems are equally capable (the bigger issue with many mirrorless cameras is the ability, or lack thereof, to track focus continually on a fast-moving target...some are better than others but few if any approach DSLRs)...there is a very slight lag in an EVF that likely would not affect most shooters capturing single-shot action scenes, or following a moving subject that is easier or slower (person on a bike, jogger, large wading bird flying, pelicans or seagulls in flight, etc). I see no real difference in ability to track and pan with this type of action with either the EVF or the OVF...the action just isn't fast enough, small enough, or erratic enough to present difficulties. Sports on a field likely wouldn't be too difficult, unless using heavy telephoto where tracking with a fast moving person who is changing speed and direction often.

Once you get into very high speed motion, especially when introducing directional and speed changes, and a smaller target and a greater distance/longer lens, then panning/tracking with the target on an EVF can start to become more difficult than with an OVF. Note it's not tracking or panning while acquiring or not shooting that's the issue - that's not really any different, and there's no lag that should prevent following any target in an EVF. The problem comes when firing off a burst of shots. With an OVF, you get the effect of the mirror flipping up and down quickly, in between actual, real-time views of the subject - the effect is akin to blinking your eye - you don't lose the subject even when erratic...as long as your panning skills are up to snuff, you can stay with almost anything. With an EVF, when you fire the shutter, the blackout and restored electronic view is more interruptive than the blink of the mirror, and what's more, every EVF camera I've used or seen has what's commonly called 'slideshow effect' - where the frame just taken is displayed as the next frame is being shot - this happens in most of the burst speeds from 3fps to 7fps or so, and the effect can make it more difficult to pan and track with an erratic target, compared to an OVF. Again, if the subject is moving in a relatively predictable direction and speed, it's easy enough with the EVF to stay with the target just by using a steady panning technique. But if you're viewing that slightly staggered view of the last frame taken and trying to stick with a target that is slowing, speeding up, moving up or down, left or right, then that slideshow stagger can cause the target to start skewing out of the frame - sometimes you lose it completely, or sometimes you follow the view in the EVF and realize the subject has moved to the far left of the frame, so you overcompensate but by then the target altered again and suddenly it's half cut off on the right of the frame, so you try to compensate, and so on...because you're never seeing a real-time display of where the subject is, you're always guessing the next alteration to speed and direction based on the last frame you took.

What most EVF shooters do is learn to work their settings, and their panning technique, around this phenomenon. Once you've adjusted to it, you can generally use an EVF nearly as successfully as an OVF - again assuming OTHER issues aren't coming into play like lack of a CDAF focus system to keep up in continuous focus mode with your moving subject. There are still going to be a few areas where an OVF makes the job easier, or helps you get a higher hit rate...but it doesn't mean things are impossible with an EVF - it just takes a little more work, a few extra shots, and a lower hit rate. Take something very difficult to photograph, like sparrows...I've shot sparrows in flight with both EVF and OVF - so it's possible...but I definitely have a higher hit rate with OVF, and find I can track them a little more reliably and easily through an OVF, when firing off a continuous burst.

Hope that helps describe the difference a little bit for you!
Click to expand...
 
PerL said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
EVF/shutter delay are very relevant and timing the first shot is often the most important despite shooting a fast series.
Click to expand...
Most people have two eyes. Despite my keeping both eyes open most often when using the viewfinder with my right one, I have no issue whatsoever with any slight lag and view the scene as a whole with my left eye obviously in 'real-time'.

Maybe some people are one-trick ponies that can't multi-task or anticipate or have poor spacial-awareness? Whatever it is, it seems that many people find problems where none exist. Human nature I suppose. :-|
 
Maan! 1/4s lag of human vision? Where do you have it from? I would hear things noticeable earlier before those happen that way! :-D

The problem with lag is not that I miss few millisecond. The problem is that it confuses me so much that I'm not almost able to shoot.
 
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
EVF/shutter delay are very relevant and timing the first shot is often the most important despite shooting a fast series.
Click to expand...
Most people have two eyes. Despite my keeping both eyes open most often when using the viewfinder with my right one, I have no issue whatsoever with any slight lag and view the scene as a whole with my left eye obviously in 'real-time'.
Click to expand...
Why didn't I think of that the last time I shot with a 400 mm lens.
Aberaeron said:
Maybe some people are one-trick ponies that can't multi-task or anticipate or have poor spacial-awareness? Whatever it is, it seems that many people find problems where none exist. Human nature I suppose. :-|
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Justin,

A great practical summary. Your experience is exactly my experience.

For shooting fast moving subjects like birds in flight with an EVF camera the problems are poor continuous focusing and longer blackout times, not EVF lag.

Both of these will be solved in time.
 
PerL said:
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
EVF/shutter delay are very relevant and timing the first shot is often the most important despite shooting a fast series.
Click to expand...
Most people have two eyes. Despite my keeping both eyes open most often when using the viewfinder with my right one, I have no issue whatsoever with any slight lag and view the scene as a whole with my left eye obviously in 'real-time'.
Click to expand...
Why didn't I think of that the last time I shot with a 400 mm lens.
PerL said:
Maybe some people are one-trick ponies that can't multi-task or anticipate or have poor spacial-awareness? Whatever it is, it seems that many people find problems where none exist. Human nature I suppose. :-|
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I really can't answer why you would have any problem with a 400mm lens. It's a mystery.
 
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
EVF/shutter delay are very relevant and timing the first shot is often the most important despite shooting a fast series.
Click to expand...
Most people have two eyes. Despite my keeping both eyes open most often when using the viewfinder with my right one, I have no issue whatsoever with any slight lag and view the scene as a whole with my left eye obviously in 'real-time'.
Click to expand...
Why didn't I think of that the last time I shot with a 400 mm lens.
Aberaeron said:
Maybe some people are one-trick ponies that can't multi-task or anticipate or have poor spacial-awareness? Whatever it is, it seems that many people find problems where none exist. Human nature I suppose. :-|
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I really can't answer why you would have any problem with a 400mm lens. It's a mystery.
Click to expand...
Well, then let's start with an easier one. Can you see a problem with that approach here?



E500__6046.jpg




--
Lee Jay
 
Lee Jay said:
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
EVF/shutter delay are very relevant and timing the first shot is often the most important despite shooting a fast series.
Click to expand...
Most people have two eyes. Despite my keeping both eyes open most often when using the viewfinder with my right one, I have no issue whatsoever with any slight lag and view the scene as a whole with my left eye obviously in 'real-time'.
Click to expand...
Why didn't I think of that the last time I shot with a 400 mm lens.
Lee Jay said:
Maybe some people are one-trick ponies that can't multi-task or anticipate or have poor spacial-awareness? Whatever it is, it seems that many people find problems where none exist. Human nature I suppose. :-|
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I really can't answer why you would have any problem with a 400mm lens. It's a mystery.
Click to expand...
Well, then let's start with an easier one. Can you see a problem with that approach here?

E500__6046.jpg


--
Lee Jay
Click to expand...
Personally I would use the LCD screen or a remote monitor, but each to their own.
 
Aberaeron said:
Personally I would use the LCD screen or a remote monitor, but each to their own.
Click to expand...
To track an airliner at cruise altitude by hand?
 
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
Aberaeron said:
PerL said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
EVF/shutter delay are very relevant and timing the first shot is often the most important despite shooting a fast series.
Click to expand...
Most people have two eyes. Despite my keeping both eyes open most often when using the viewfinder with my right one, I have no issue whatsoever with any slight lag and view the scene as a whole with my left eye obviously in 'real-time'.
Click to expand...
Why didn't I think of that the last time I shot with a 400 mm lens.
Aberaeron said:
Maybe some people are one-trick ponies that can't multi-task or anticipate or have poor spacial-awareness? Whatever it is, it seems that many people find problems where none exist. Human nature I suppose. :-|
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I really can't answer why you would have any problem with a 400mm lens. It's a mystery.
Click to expand...
You very often use a tele lens to get close to the action when shooting action (what the OP asked about).

A 400 mm lens gives in 35 mm eqv terms 8x the magnification of a 50 mm lens which roughly corresponds to what you see with your eye (with the old SLRs, somewhat less now). With a smaller sensor, like m43 the magnification factor is 16x). The camera works like a pair of binoculasr in this way.

So lets pretend we have a camera with a big amount of lag in the EVF.

In your way of shooting, one eye will see what your camera will capture, but to late.

The other eye, which will decide when the shutter goes off, don't clearly see what the camera is capturing because it is to far away.

Don't you see that it is a problem?
 
Last edited:
crashpc said:
Maan! 1/4s lag of human vision? Where do you have it from? I would hear things noticeable earlier before those happen that way! :-D

The problem with lag is not that I miss few millisecond. The problem is that it confuses me so much that I'm not almost able to shoot.

--
Why does he do it?
Click to expand...
I did not said human eye lag, I said human lag or lag in human reaction time if not drunk, means it takes >= 1/4s to you to realize/finalize your shot and completely press the shutter button. Let me explain here:

Earth's Gravity (based on Einstein's relativity) and atmosphere, reflections, optics, and water slows down the speed of light very dramatically. Scientist have also proved the effect on speed of light by optics and other objects. They managed to slow the light speed upto 9.7km/s in 2004, and stopped the light to zero speed recently. The results in your eye will not be as fast as you think.

In multidimensional OVF, Not all the light reaches to the eyes. Normal mirror can only reflects 80 to 85% of light and only silver/gold plated mirrors can reflect 90 to 95% of light. So if you have pentaprism or pentamirror OVF, you will loose 10 to 20% of light in every single dimension and after all the processing via OVF you will only receive 40 to 50% of light. This is the only reason why low end cameras have 95% coverage. A high end OVF with 70 to 80% output with 100% coverage would cost more than $600.

Lest say Sony A65 or A77 can save a minimum of 8 images of 24mp each per-second and still have some left in buffer than I can imagine their processing speed will be around 12 images per second. Means they can process 288 mega-pixel per second. So to populate a 2.4million dots of EVF requires 2.4mp of image so the total reaction time or delay on an EVF is not more than 1/120 or 0.008333 second.

The normal reaction time of a human is 1/4 or 0.25 second if not drunk!!!
 
Last edited:
Vikas Rana said:
crashpc said:
Maan! 1/4s lag of human vision? Where do you have it from? I would hear things noticeable earlier before those happen that way! :-D

The problem with lag is not that I miss few millisecond. The problem is that it confuses me so much that I'm not almost able to shoot.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
The fastest moving object that can be tracked by a feedback loop is determined by the total loop time, i.e. human lag + viewfinder lag. The human lag is on the order of hundreds of milliseconds, the viewfinder lag is 0 for an OVF and tens of milliseconds for an EVF. So the OVF still has a small but definite advantage.

Edit: a better solution than replacing the EVF with an OVF is of course to replace the human with something less sluggish.
 
Last edited:
With all this what Leonard wrote in my mind, I add the worst part - low light lag. I don´t exactly know what happens, but when low light situation occurs, the EVF comes from somewhat handicapped to totally unusable by its lag up to something like 1/6 to 1/15 s. Really bad. I can see screen/GPU lag at about 40FPS. That is 25ms. To be safe, I´d like to have 12ms of maximum lag. This means 80fps for my bloody money payed for that cam. Not a chance to get it with low light with todays cams. With OVF, I get realtime. That´s it. That´s why I would like to see augmented and ligth boosted OVFs over EVFs, which also drains battery (not display, but sensor and CPU horse power!) to reach this crazy (still not possible/buyable) response.
 
Lee Jay said:
sportyaccordy said:
Heres the thing.... you don't shoot action 1 frame at a time, so EVF delay or shutter delay are irrelevant. Keep it in frame, switch to burst mode, let the camera handle the rest.
Click to expand...
Keeping it in frame is harder with lag. Imagine trying to keep your car on a tight, winding road if there was a delay between when you turned the wheel and when the wheels actually turned.
Click to expand...
 
crashpc said:
...That´s why I would like to see augmented and ligth boosted OVFs over EVFs, which also drains battery (not display, but sensor and CPU horse power!) to reach this crazy (still not possible/buyable) response.
Click to expand...
I've asked you this before. Please enlighten me as to what sort of technology will provide a 'light boosted' OVF without using electronic image amplification in one of its several guises.

A reference or two to systems, even experimental ones, that can provide this capability would be useful.
 
crashpc said:
I don´t know. I just want it. That´s all! :-)
Click to expand...
I want a camera that floats wherever I want it and can get shots anywhere from ground level to 500 feet altitude. It'll have a 6x7 medium frame sensor with 200MP, f:1 constant zoom from 10-10,000mm, decent high ISO results up to ISO 1,000,000 and tether to my optical cortex, cutting out viewfinders completely.

If you want to dream about things then at least try having a bit of ambition.

:-D ;-) :-P
 
No, you just go large on it, with no imagination. We already have head up display, so augmented reality in realtime is possible, and that about light boosting can be easy also (to a point). what if you don't need to see midnight corner darkness as in sunny daylight situation, but few photons fom backlight would help? C'mon! It's not only black or white these days.
--
Why does he do it?
 
Vikas Rana said:
crashpc said:
Maan! 1/4s lag of human vision? Where do you have it from? I would hear things noticeable earlier before those happen that way! :-D

The problem with lag is not that I miss few millisecond. The problem is that it confuses me so much that I'm not almost able to shoot.

--
Why does he do it?
Click to expand...
I did not said human eye lag, I said human lag or lag in human reaction time if not drunk, means it takes >= 1/4s to you to realize/finalize your shot and completely press the shutter button. Let me explain here:

Earth's Gravity (based on Einstein's relativity) and atmosphere, reflections, optics, and water slows down the speed of light very dramatically. Scientist have also proved the effect on speed of light by optics and other objects. They managed to slow the light speed upto 9.7km/s in 2004, and stopped the light to zero speed recently. The results in your eye will not be as fast as you think.

In multidimensional OVF, Not all the light reaches to the eyes. Normal mirror can only reflects 80 to 85% of light and only silver/gold plated mirrors can reflect 90 to 95% of light. So if you have pentaprism or pentamirror OVF, you will loose 10 to 20% of light in every single dimension and after all the processing via OVF you will only receive 40 to 50% of light. This is the only reason why low end cameras have 95% coverage. A high end OVF with 70 to 80% output with 100% coverage would cost more than $600.

Lest say Sony A65 or A77 can save a minimum of 8 images of 24mp each per-second and still have some left in buffer than I can imagine their processing speed will be around 12 images per second. Means they can process 288 mega-pixel per second. So to populate a 2.4million dots of EVF requires 2.4mp of image so the total reaction time or delay on an EVF is not more than 1/120 or 0.008333 second.

The normal reaction time of a human is 1/4 or 0.25 second if not drunk!!!
Click to expand...


The_Biting_Pear_of_Salamanca_by_ursulav.jpg
 
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