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Nikon new Release ... another entry level with Kit Lens...wow!!!

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lolopasstrail said:
Tony Beach said:
It's a rhetorical question, and a bit of a comeback to the one asked a week ago in this forum about the D400, but I think it's a useful thought-experiment. My answer would be that I wouldn't pay anything for a D3300 because I'm not interested in it. Is Nikon listening to us or give a damn? Thom Hogan's latest commentary on this issue captures the frustration many of us feel with Nikon, and the answer is obvious, they don't give a damn.
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I have a lot of respect for Hogan, but I am getting an increasing feeling that he is succumbing to a common reviewer trap. He is not reviewing cameras, he is reviewing cameras for an audience. There is an unacknowledged tendency to play to the audience. In this case the audience is a group of interweb people that tend to acquiesce to each others' opinions, and this commonality becomes the norm. The reviews then become predictable and repetitious, as the One True Interweb Opinion is arrived at.

This is the case with reviews of the Df, of the EM-1, and of the D3300. The tendency to look at a single model in isolation.
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You lost me here, Thom has not reviewed the D3300.
lolopasstrail said:
Take a step back. Look at overall trends and tendencies and slow evolution. It's not reviewers or web posters that declare what consumer product is a success. It's the Market: the thousands and thousands of nameless and faceless consumers who vote with their money, based on their own judgement of what works. This is the target of consumer product manufacturers, not (and I don't except myself) self-absorbed and self-important bloggers and forum posters.

In the D3300 Nikon has introduced a luxury toy with much higher resolution than the vaunted Olympus EM-1 luxury toy, with likely faster operation, at a lighter weight than the Olympus, better direct SLR viewing, and with a brand new collapsible lens at LESS than half the price of the Olympus body alone. Consumers will think this is a fantastic package and will by it by the hundreds of thousands. Why not? In terms of picture taking ability and image quality, they give up nothing and save lots.
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Look dude, I recently recommended a D3200 for my nephew.
lolopasstrail said:
The market is wise, and determines the success of the product. This product doesn't have to be innovative (although, how is it not??), and so what if many variations are released? This is how a major manufacturer stays competitive, vs a bet-the-house product like the EM-1.

The bloggers and posters have declared the death of the DSLR repeatedly, but the market begs to differ.

If we need to take a nice picture at a nice price point the tools are there, Nikon or other. Or we can grouse to each other that the manufactures are stupid because they deliver to the market rather than my own personal demands.
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How is the D3300 any better than the D3200? Answer: Hardly at all. Now how would a D400 be better than a D300s? Answer: Night and day.

Thom's commentary about the D3300 was spot on, it's another weak update by Nikon.
 
It is probably the first Nikon DSLR release for which I find the kit lens more interesting than the camera.

Apart from that it is "welcome to the digital age". Ask your laptop IHV what the difference is between a GeForce 680M, 780M and 880M.
 
Tony Beach said:
lolopasstrail said:
Tony Beach said:
It's a rhetorical question, and a bit of a comeback to the one asked a week ago in this forum about the D400, but I think it's a useful thought-experiment. My answer would be that I wouldn't pay anything for a D3300 because I'm not interested in it. Is Nikon listening to us or give a damn? Thom Hogan's latest commentary on this issue captures the frustration many of us feel with Nikon, and the answer is obvious, they don't give a damn.
Click to expand...
I have a lot of respect for Hogan, but I am getting an increasing feeling that he is succumbing to a common reviewer trap. He is not reviewing cameras, he is reviewing cameras for an audience. There is an unacknowledged tendency to play to the audience. In this case the audience is a group of interweb people that tend to acquiesce to each others' opinions, and this commonality becomes the norm. The reviews then become predictable and repetitious, as the One True Interweb Opinion is arrived at.

This is the case with reviews of the Df, of the EM-1, and of the D3300. The tendency to look at a single model in isolation.
Click to expand...
You lost me here, Thom has not reviewed the D3300.
Click to expand...
Agree and if taken a bit further, Thom has somewhat recently pointed out that as a "system" Nikon seems to be loosing it's touch. Have a DF or a D800 with a D600/610 backup? How many grips, "types" of memory cards and specific batteries (and chargers) do you need in your bag? Other than the F mount lens, what accessories are compatible w/each camera?
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
Take a step back. Look at overall trends and tendencies and slow evolution. It's not reviewers or web posters that declare what consumer product is a success. It's the Market: the thousands and thousands of nameless and faceless consumers who vote with their money, based on their own judgement of what works. This is the target of consumer product manufacturers, not (and I don't except myself) self-absorbed and self-important bloggers and forum posters.

In the D3300 Nikon has introduced a luxury toy with much higher resolution than the vaunted Olympus EM-1 luxury toy, with likely faster operation, at a lighter weight than the Olympus, better direct SLR viewing, and with a brand new collapsible lens at LESS than half the price of the Olympus body alone. Consumers will think this is a fantastic package and will by it by the hundreds of thousands. Why not? In terms of picture taking ability and image quality, they give up nothing and save lots.
Click to expand...
Look dude, I recently recommended a D3200 for my nephew.
Click to expand...
Also, in the world of semi-pro to Pro DSLR's the folks that are purchasing those cameras and lenses have likely invested to some degree into a camera makers' mount and system ... Is that segment of the market the same as the segment of the market that is going to buy a D3300 with a kit lens? Will the users of a D300 or a D700 do an about face to buy the D3300 and if not, why? What would that market segment buy?
Tony Beach said:
Tony Beach said:
The market is wise, and determines the success of the product. This product doesn't have to be innovative (although, how is it not??), and so what if many variations are released? This is how a major manufacturer stays competitive, vs a bet-the-house product like the EM-1.

The bloggers and posters have declared the death of the DSLR repeatedly, but the market begs to differ.

If we need to take a nice picture at a nice price point the tools are there, Nikon or other. Or we can grouse to each other that the manufactures are stupid because they deliver to the market rather than my own personal demands.
Click to expand...
How is the D3300 any better than the D3200? Answer: Hardly at all. Now how would a D400 be better than a D300s? Answer: Night and day.

Thom's commentary about the D3300 was spot on, it's another weak update by Nikon.
Click to expand...
Agree and if you take a look over on the FX forum you'll see several threads and posts about the announcement of the D4s. Folks are already making the same observation and several have stated that they won't be upgrading from their existing D4 bodies.

So in summary and in reply to the question at the begining of this thread: "How much would you pay for this D3300?" I wouldn't pay anything as I would not consider buying the D3300. Taken a step further, and as a D300 user, I very well may not buy the fabled D400 (if it ever appears) as it's late in the game and by that time I very well may have made a purchase or two to replace my D300s. At this stage of the game, the D400 will have to be a groundbreaking camera to be successful as it has a much tighter price point and niche to fill than the D300 ever did.
 
Tony Beach said:
It's a rhetorical question, and a bit of a comeback to the one asked a week ago in this forum about the D400, but I think it's a useful thought-experiment. My answer would be that I wouldn't pay anything for a D3300 because I'm not interested in it. Is Nikon listening to us or give a damn? Thom Hogan's latest commentary on this issue captures the frustration many of us feel with Nikon, and the answer is obvious, they don't give a damn.

On the bright side, Nikon has literally run out of DX cameras other than the D300s to refresh. I lose count how many times they've refreshed some of these lower end models, but the D90 has had two so far, so it's possible Nikon will just keep making ever more incremental iterations of the D7000 and D5000 and figure maybe the D7200 or D7300 will finally suffice to meet the expectations of the serious DX shooters.
Click to expand...
A more serious question would be "Would you recommend the D3300 to a friend who is buying his or her first DSLR?"

That's the danger to Nikon, if it keeps flipping off the enthusiast market. The Nikon 1 tanked, and I think a large part of that was the way that Nikon pointedly ignored the enthusiasts with that line - e.g. by not coming out with anything like Thom Hogan's suggested "Nikon Z1 ."

Likewise, I believe that a large part of Nikon's past success with entry-level DSLRs was due to the enthusiasts saying "hey, those entry-level cameras from Nikon are pretty darn good for their price." But if we enthusiasts stop saying that...
 
EKB said:
Tony Beach said:
It's a rhetorical question, and a bit of a comeback to the one asked a week ago in this forum about the D400, but I think it's a useful thought-experiment. My answer would be that I wouldn't pay anything for a D3300 because I'm not interested in it. Is Nikon listening to us or give a damn? Thom Hogan's latest commentary on this issue captures the frustration many of us feel with Nikon, and the answer is obvious, they don't give a damn.

On the bright side, Nikon has literally run out of DX cameras other than the D300s to refresh. I lose count how many times they've refreshed some of these lower end models, but the D90 has had two so far, so it's possible Nikon will just keep making ever more incremental iterations of the D7000 and D5000 and figure maybe the D7200 or D7300 will finally suffice to meet the expectations of the serious DX shooters.
Click to expand...
A more serious question would be "Would you recommend the D3300 to a friend who is buying his or her first DSLR?"

That's the danger to Nikon, if it keeps flipping off the enthusiast market. The Nikon 1 tanked, and I think a large part of that was the way that Nikon pointedly ignored the enthusiasts with that line - e.g. by not coming out with anything like Thom Hogan's suggested "Nikon Z1 ."

Likewise, I believe that a large part of Nikon's past success with entry-level DSLRs was due to the enthusiasts saying "hey, those entry-level cameras from Nikon are pretty darn good for their price." But if we enthusiasts stop saying that...
Click to expand...
I've stopped staying that. I can't, in good conscience, recommend to a friend or relative one of the entry level cameras. Nikon just seems to be playing too many games. My pet bugaboo is compatibility. I find the lack of system compatibility in these entry level cameras disturbing...no AF or AIS lenses...no commander or HSS with flashes...weird corporate decisions with batteries and remotes...a new aggressive corporate policy aimed at crippling third party equipment in each new generation of camera. It seems Nikon is spending more time trying to push it's customers around...make them buy new Nikon stuff...than just building great cameras and having it's customer base gravitate toward their purchases naturally.

I suppose the earlier comment, "welcome to the digital age" sums it up. Nikon seems to be behaving more like an Apple than an old time Nikon. I have no confidence in what crap Nikon might pull next...I sometimes joke that when Nikon releases the AF-X lens we'll all have to throw out our obsolete AF-S lenses and get new ones.
 
Tony Beach said:
Bailey151 said:
Tony Beach said:
Bailey151 said:
Okay, so it has a high(er) res sensor....
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Actually, the D3300 has the same sensor as the D3200.
Click to expand...
You are correct - they churn them out so fast I missed it :D
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Yeah, churning is what I would call it too.
Click to expand...
Similar "churning" goes back years in the camera world... Seems to me that ALL camera makers do it.

1963 Original Retail: $164.95

Estimated Production: over 1.2 million units - That was the Polaroid Land camera model 100 (alone). Later came the 200, the 300, and 400 series and finally in 2008 Polaroid discontinued making film...

1929: Models A, B, C and D - The Zeiss Ikonta MF folders and then the 520, 521, etc until sometime after the 2nd world war...

1960's and 70's: Yashica MAT series TLR's...

Mamiya RB67, RB67 Pro S, RB67 Pro SD

...etc.

Little iterations in design (otherwise known as marketing ploys) to keep consumers spending on the "latest and greatest" until something revolutionary comes along (IE digital vs analog) and then the cycles start all over again.
 
joeybob said:
Similar "churning" goes back years in the camera world... Seems to me that ALL camera makers do it.
Click to expand...
joeybob said:
1963 Original Retail: $164.95

Estimated Production: over 1.2 million units - That was the Polaroid Land camera model 100 (alone). Later came the 200, the 300, and 400 series and finally in 2008 Polaroid discontinued making film...

1929: Models A, B, C and D - The Zeiss Ikonta MF folders and then the 520, 521, etc until sometime after the 2nd world war...

1960's and 70's: Yashica MAT series TLR's...

Mamiya RB67, RB67 Pro S, RB67 Pro SD

...etc.

Little iterations in design (otherwise known as marketing ploys) to keep consumers spending on the "latest and greatest" until something revolutionary comes along (IE digital vs analog) and then the cycles start all over again.
Click to expand...
Yes but generally they are not doing so while leaving a glaring whole in their system line-up.
 
Holmes375 said:
joeybob said:
Similar "churning" goes back years in the camera world... Seems to me that ALL camera makers do it.

1963 Original Retail: $164.95

Estimated Production: over 1.2 million units - That was the Polaroid Land camera model 100 (alone). Later came the 200, the 300, and 400 series and finally in 2008 Polaroid discontinued making film...

1929: Models A, B, C and D - The Zeiss Ikonta MF folders and then the 520, 521, etc until sometime after the 2nd world war...

1960's and 70's: Yashica MAT series TLR's...

Mamiya RB67, RB67 Pro S, RB67 Pro SD

...etc.

Little iterations in design (otherwise known as marketing ploys) to keep consumers spending on the "latest and greatest" until something revolutionary comes along (IE digital vs analog) and then the cycles start all over again.
Click to expand...
Yes but generally they are not doing so while leaving a glaring whole in their system line-up.
Click to expand...
 
joeybob said:
Holmes375 said:
joeybob said:
Similar "churning" goes back years in the camera world... Seems to me that ALL camera makers do it.

1963 Original Retail: $164.95

Estimated Production: over 1.2 million units - That was the Polaroid Land camera model 100 (alone). Later came the 200, the 300, and 400 series and finally in 2008 Polaroid discontinued making film...

1929: Models A, B, C and D - The Zeiss Ikonta MF folders and then the 520, 521, etc until sometime after the 2nd world war...

1960's and 70's: Yashica MAT series TLR's...

Mamiya RB67, RB67 Pro S, RB67 Pro SD

...etc.

Little iterations in design (otherwise known as marketing ploys) to keep consumers spending on the "latest and greatest" until something revolutionary comes along (IE digital vs analog) and then the cycles start all over again.
Click to expand...
Yes but generally they are not doing so while leaving a glaring whole in their system line-up.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Holmes375 said:
joeybob said:
Holmes375 said:
joeybob said:
Similar "churning" goes back years in the camera world... Seems to me that ALL camera makers do it.

1963 Original Retail: $164.95

Estimated Production: over 1.2 million units - That was the Polaroid Land camera model 100 (alone). Later came the 200, the 300, and 400 series and finally in 2008 Polaroid discontinued making film...

1929: Models A, B, C and D - The Zeiss Ikonta MF folders and then the 520, 521, etc until sometime after the 2nd world war...

1960's and 70's: Yashica MAT series TLR's...

Mamiya RB67, RB67 Pro S, RB67 Pro SD

...etc.

Little iterations in design (otherwise known as marketing ploys) to keep consumers spending on the "latest and greatest" until something revolutionary comes along (IE digital vs analog) and then the cycles start all over again.
Click to expand...
Yes but generally they are not doing so while leaving a glaring whole in their system line-up.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Holmes375 said:
joeybob said:
Holmes375 said:
joeybob said:
Similar "churning" goes back years in the camera world... Seems to me that ALL camera makers do it.

1963 Original Retail: $164.95

Estimated Production: over 1.2 million units - That was the Polaroid Land camera model 100 (alone). Later came the 200, the 300, and 400 series and finally in 2008 Polaroid discontinued making film...

1929: Models A, B, C and D - The Zeiss Ikonta MF folders and then the 520, 521, etc until sometime after the 2nd world war...

1960's and 70's: Yashica MAT series TLR's...

Mamiya RB67, RB67 Pro S, RB67 Pro SD

...etc.

Little iterations in design (otherwise known as marketing ploys) to keep consumers spending on the "latest and greatest" until something revolutionary comes along (IE digital vs analog) and then the cycles start all over again.
Click to expand...
Yes but generally they are not doing so while leaving a glaring whole in their system line-up.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Bajerunner said:
azguy said:
The problem is that they are stuffing that 24MP sensor in every new DX body, leaving the D300 in the dust. I already bought a D7100 and the IQ difference, in terms of detail and lower noise, is enough that I have to have it. I love my D300, but I need the improvement.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
eddyshoots said:
EKB said:
Tony Beach said:
success with entry-level DSLRs was due to the enthusiasts saying "hey, those entry-level cameras from Nikon are pretty darn good for their price." But if we enthusiasts stop saying that...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I've stopped staying that. I can't, in good conscience, recommend to a friend or relative one of the entry level cameras. Nikon just seems to be playing too many games. My pet bugaboo is compatibility. I find the lack of system compatibility in these entry level cameras disturbing...no AF or AIS lenses...no commander or HSS with flashes...weird corporate decisions with batteries and remotes...a new aggressive corporate policy aimed at crippling third party equipment in each new generation of camera. It seems Nikon is spending more time trying to push it's customers around...make them buy new Nikon stuff...than just building great cameras and having it's customer base gravitate toward their purchases naturally.

I suppose the earlier comment, "welcome to the digital age" sums it up. Nikon seems to be behaving more like an Apple than an old time Nikon. I have no confidence in what crap Nikon might pull next...I sometimes joke that when Nikon releases the AF-X lens we'll all have to throw out our obsolete AF-S lenses and get new ones.
Click to expand...
 
seahawk said:
It is probably the first Nikon DSLR release for which I find the kit lens more interesting than the camera.
Click to expand...
Really? I have one of those on the N1 system, absolutely hate the ^&*$%(# thing. Few things interfere with taking pictures more than having to turn the camera on AND pop the lens. That lens is almost never on the camera, in fact I'd used the non-VR lens over it just to avoid the two step process. Works okay when you're in a static environment but when you're out & about moving? SUCKS.
 
Bailey151 said:
seahawk said:
It is probably the first Nikon DSLR release for which I find the kit lens more interesting than the camera.
Click to expand...
Really? I have one of those on the N1 system, absolutely hate the ^&*$%(# thing. Few things interfere with taking pictures more than having to turn the camera on AND pop the lens. That lens is almost never on the camera, in fact I'd used the non-VR lens over it just to avoid the two step process. Works okay when you're in a static environment but when you're out & about moving? SUCKS.
Click to expand...
Uhmmm, it might be helpful to learn how to use the camera. The camera turns on with ONE step by just "popping" the lens open. No two steps needed. Now you don't need to hate the ^&*$%(# thing and the versatile little zoom can go back to work! :-D
 
WD said:
Uhmmm, it might be helpful to learn how to use the camera. The camera turns on with ONE step by just "popping" the lens open. No two steps needed. Now you don't need to hate the ^&*$%(# thing and the versatile little zoom can go back to work! :-D
Click to expand...
Yep..........after dumb @ss Nikon fixed it w/ firmware........turn off? Uh, nope = still a fail. And for a DSLR it has zero use. Save what, a few MM for a kit lens which isn't large to start with? Just another Nikon "chuck stuff & see what sticks" = we really have no clue what the market wants. Maybe a mid-range fast DX lens? Upgrade the 16-85? A pro DX? Nah, another entry level camera & a craptastic kit lens...........wow, way to go Nikon. Combined with the hispter dufus & it shows what true visionaries work @ Nikon.

Love the "churn" & Polaroid analogy above.............so, how'd that go for Polaroid longterm? :D
 
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