Same sensor is a good thing

SunnyFlorida

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Coming from the Nikon camp, I used their original 6MP CCD sensor over 4 evolutions / product cycles D100--> D70-->D50-->D40, needless to say, by the 4th evolution that 6MP sensor was performing like a champ, the ISO improved significantly but most importantly color accuracy, DR, and the overall image rendering and .jpg output was superb so much so that the D40 is still considered a classic today. Nikon fanbois who were caught up in the MP race wanted more MP so nikon introduced the 10mp D40x which was not better than the D40.

So to me 20mp are more than plenty, and if samsung engineers keep fine tuning the sensor then I'm confident that it will be very competitive with other similar sensors out there, and I'd rather have a well refined 4th evolution sensor that has had all the bugs tweaked out rather than a new unproven "me too" sensor.
 
I often wonder why we are not using steam powered cars anymore. After a 100 years evolution, they'd fly like rockets and be greenest than those modern, unuseful, electric gimmicks.The future is coal!

Btw, the 20mp improved massively on the older - pentax derived - sensor. A new iteration can improve the same, by using the technologies samsung is developing for smartphones. The same sensor can have slight improvements, butnothing compared to a new - technologicallynew - one.
 
I knew, that's why I wrote that :-)

In 5 years we'll have super tuned 10mp sensor on one side and newer 80mp ones on the other. It's nice to be able to choose!:-)
 
having a nx200 i see quite a few kinks (noise even at iso100) in basically the same sensor as the nx300 where it output is very clean.

I totally agree that tuning a current sensor is better than throwing mpxs at a slab of silicon and seeing how many stick.

If in 2 years samsung have the same 20mpx sensor with good iso6400 that would be a good achievement.
 
The same basic tech can't be tuned forever. Is like saying that a tuned up Intel 8088 could be on par with todays Core i7 if they went on tuning the same original design. About sensors, there is a lot going on, under the tech point of view. Better manufacturing process along with totally new technologies (organic sensors ahed of everything else) will bring tremendous improvements in few years from now.

In the meantime, we are witnessing great advancements that are bringing small sensors (like the one in rx100 ii and in the latest m4/3 high end models) to offer similar dr to bigger ones.

I'm quite sure that samsung has something very imteresting in the pipeline. But first, they probably had too many 20mp sensors in the warehouse, so decided to stick with that for another product generation.
 
The same basic tech can't be tuned forever. Is like saying that a tuned up Intel 8088 could be on par with todays Core i7 if they went on tuning the same original design. About sensors, there is a lot going on, under the tech point of view. Better manufacturing process along with totally new technologies (organic sensors ahed of everything else) will bring tremendous improvements in few years from now.

In the meantime, we are witnessing great advancements that are bringing small sensors (like the one in rx100 ii and in the latest m4/3 high end models) to offer similar dr to bigger ones.

I'm quite sure that samsung has something very imteresting in the pipeline. But first, they probably had too many 20mp sensors in the warehouse, so decided to stick with that for another product generation.
So here is the thing, A sensor isn't a processor.



The goal of a Sensor is to replace film.



Megapixels start giving diminishing returns at a certain point. The current NX sensor is actually very good, if I showed you 6 actual pictures you'd be hard pressed to tell me what sensor they were shot on.



New tech is nice and all, but a mature sensor has many advantages like improving the quality of the ISO and lowering production costs. Glass is often more important then sensor. And the DR of most sensor is perfectly fine, people look for greater DR or better ISO because they aren't great photographers. I know my camera has limitations, just like any camera. ISO 6400 is insane, with f2/2.8 lens you shouldn't need more in most conditions, yes sometimes a fast moving child is an issue... that is why you get a flash.


Look at the PS3, came out as a big bulk box high price, low storage capacity. Finished it's live cycle very much smaller, cheaper with a higher storage capacity.



Sensors can have a similar life cycle. Better ISO, more efficient power, better heat, these minor improvement increase the effectiveness of the camera. You may not upgrade from one sensor version to the next but that is because unless you are a gear head you aren't going to anyway.



One of the nice things with hanging out with working photographers is you see them shooting with a D300 and then picking up a D610, or Shooting with a D90. Upgrading isn't the most important thing.



For me I'm looking to build my kit. I want a second body, the NX30 is a good replacement/addition for my NX20 and I compare it only to the NX20 in he same way I don't compare a D300 to a D5300. Even though the D5300 has a newer sensor they aren't the same class of camera. I also want lighting gear, lens, and accessories. I may actually break down and pay the $600 the new Samsung flash is likely to cost because having a ttl flash that can work off body in commander is handy.






I care only about what tools I want in my box to do the jobs I want to do. If Samsung can't do it, I'll switch systems, I'd just prefer not to, and right now Samsung bought some time, the NX30 on paper meets my needs well enough that so long as the buffer isn't complete diaper stink I'll likely start picking up some of the lens I'm missing.
 
Very competent post. I'm not saying that current sensor is bad. On the contrary, I really like it. As said, I find myself often wanting iso 6400 even with the 3mm f2 (I need to keep at least 1/60 to capture my baby indoor). Yes, since I have the flash, I use it more than I would have thought, since iso 3200 is barely acceptable for my idea of a picture. It's fine, but having one stop more would not be bad at all.

And my bottom line is: I'd like a camera with evf, BUT I don't feel like investing in one which has the same iq as the one I've been using for almost one year. So I'm not saying I'm not happy with mx300. No! Does it have the best iq amomg aps-c? No! So it can be better. I'll upgrade when/if a new camera comes, with evf (better if rangefinder style or optional evf to a camera styled like nx300) AND a significantly better sensor.
 
The same basic tech can't be tuned forever. Is like saying that a tuned up Intel 8088 could be on par with todays Core i7 if they went on tuning the same original design.
The Intel 8088 was a workhorse at the time and was tweaked nicely over its life to improve its potential before it was replaced by something newer.
 
Coming from the Nikon camp, I used their original 6MP CCD sensor over 4 evolutions / product cycles D100--> D70-->D50-->D40, needless to say, by the 4th evolution that 6MP sensor was performing like a champ, the ISO improved significantly but most importantly color accuracy, DR, and the overall image rendering and .jpg output was superb so much so that the D40 is still considered a classic today. Nikon fanbois who were caught up in the MP race wanted more MP so nikon introduced the 10mp D40x which was not better than the D40.

So to me 20mp are more than plenty, and if samsung engineers keep fine tuning the sensor then I'm confident that it will be very competitive with other similar sensors out there, and I'd rather have a well refined 4th evolution sensor that has had all the bugs tweaked out rather than a new unproven "me too" sensor.
Honestly, I think that he sensors in the NX1000/1100/20/300 (and likely 30) all give the same IQ as far as raw is concerned (confirmed by the latests DxO tests of the NX1000/NX1100 that show no practical differences between them or when compared to NX300).



The only differences in IQ are seen on jpegs and come from a better jpeg engine (at least in the NX300).



The addition of phase difference AF that boosts the AF speed on the later models is also a welcome improvement.
 
Very competent post. I'm not saying that current sensor is bad. On the contrary, I really like it. As said, I find myself often wanting iso 6400 even with the 3mm f2 (I need to keep at least 1/60 to capture my baby indoor). Yes, since I have the flash, I use it more than I would have thought, since iso 3200 is barely acceptable for my idea of a picture. It's fine, but having one stop more would not be bad at all.

And my bottom line is: I'd like a camera with evf, BUT I don't feel like investing in one which has the same iq as the one I've been using for almost one year. So I'm not saying I'm not happy with mx300. No! Does it have the best iq amomg aps-c? No! So it can be better. I'll upgrade when/if a new camera comes, with evf (better if rangefinder style or optional evf to a camera styled like nx300) AND a significantly better sensor.

That's the good way to go about it: choose what you need (better DR, ISO, form factor or whatever) and wait until you get what you need while using what you have to its full potential.

The risk is wating a long time (especially for the rangefinder styled camera with EVF since there is no certainty that Samsung will ever produce one) but since you already have a camera that works, that won't preclude you from taking pictures while waiting.



I actually did exactly the same a while ago and did not buy the NX300 to replace my NX1000 in spite of a better jpeg engine and AF because there was no IQ difference between the two models and I wanted an EVF and a more substantial grip. The NX30 fits my bill but I understand why it doens't fit yours.



Since, like everyone here, I also think that better IQ can't hurt and that I would be OK with a range-finder styled camera with EVF, I sincerely hope that you'll get what you want in a not too distant future.



Cheers and happy photographs! :-)
 
I agree with you. With the exception of nx200, which as a first gen product is slightly behind the others, all the 20mp cameras from sammy are within the 'sample variation' range as to iq values tested by dxo. A slight edge goes to nx300 (could be caused by those 'phantomatic' copper interconnections) in the high iso area, where it fares about 1/3 of a stop better than nx20. Nothing realy noticeable in real world, I'd say.

That's why I think that, in order to get some evident iq improvement, samsung needs a new sensor, but as you said before, this is just a matter of waiting :-)
 

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