Understanding the Nikon Df, amazing jpegs & other things

not at all - just that someone implied above that the reason the 51 pt module in not in the Df was because it was somehow physically too large ie a FF only module, but it apparently fits into a DX mirror box just fine since it's in the 7100 and gives the 7100 nice AF coverage across the frame - so size and presumably cost is not the deciding factor in where Nikon uses it.
 
D7100

c55b5165bd1440b889424c964845da55.jpg

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http://www.libraw.org/
Nope try again
 
Pretty much nothing is applied to NEF, only some types of noise reduction and underexposure+shadow lifting to protect highlights.
I thought noise reduction was never applied in RAW.
In reviews on DPR, the comparisons with RAW are always without NR.

It would be nice if you could choose for yourself what the camera corrects for you, regardless the type of file is lossy or lossless. Especially those nice lens based corrections.
 
gabriel foto said:
David314 said:
Iliah Borg said:
Fred Mueller said:
my only point is that the "size" of the 51 pt module (what ever it is) doesn't preclude it's use in a "compact" body, but just given the fact that that module IS in the 7100, one can only presume it's lack of use in the Df has little to do with cost of actual physical size, that leaves product segmentation, no ?
What is the vertical dimension of CAM module in D7100? Are you saying Df is created not to compete with D7100?

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About LibRaw | LibRaw
No that is NOT what he is saying at all

what he is saying is that the op said that the multicam 3500 sensor would have made the df larger and hence nikon did not use it

from the pictures and the fact it is in the d7100 and the d300, that logic seems to be false
Hi David (and others),

In fact Iliah has understood me well, but I have failed at explaining this very clearly.

I made two observations:

First, the 51-point CAM module, as seen in pictures, is higher than the 39-point module (apart from being wider, of course)

Second, there is a little more space under the floor of the mirror housing and the bottom plate in the D300 / D7100, on one hand, and the D600 / D610 / Df on the other hand.

There are obviously other things packed in this part of the camera, but the outside difference is about 5mm - not more, but clearly visible:


Cropped picture from Camera Size. D7100 to the left, Df to the right.

My conclusion is this:
those are the mirrors, the multicam sensor
Member said:
* We have seen the same decisions in the Canon 6D vs the 5D MkIII - a smaller CAM module in a smaller body. This is not unique for Nikon. Incidentally, perhaps you could say that the 6D's module is even more limited in terms of outer focus points.

* I believe both Canon and Nikon have concluded that the AF performance of these cameras is entirely satisfactory, if the intended customer is not a sports shooter.

* I do not think that Nikon wanted to save 40 or 60 dollars (no, I don't know the actual cost difference) by specifying the 4800FX CAM module in the Df. Believe what you like, but Nikon is not stupid. If they can offer a higher-specified camera for a similar price, they will of course do so. Yes, I am very familiar with the term cannibalizing.

* I beleive they were strictly focused on making the most compact DSLR in the world - something that DpR, ironically, failed to acknowledge.

To one person asking: No, these are my conclusions only. I have not taken these cameras apart.

* In some respects, in this particular review, I had a strong impression that DpR chose only to see the back side of the coin. That bothered me, and that is one of the reason I opened this thread.

Gabriel
Look you are excited about the camera

but nikon was obviously trying to save some cost to the consumer in using this module

i don't see any size difference in the sensor module




Df multi cam 4800




D800 sensor module
 
not at all - just that someone implied above that the reason the 51 pt module in not in the Df was because it was somehow physically too large ie a FF only module, but it apparently fits into a DX mirror box just fine since it's in the 7100 and gives the 7100 nice AF coverage across the frame - so size and presumably cost is not the deciding factor in where Nikon uses it.
They are different, DX and FX CAMs. You can browse http://press.mynikonlife.com.au/uploads/products/3*DSLR/ and see most of the current.
 
my only point is that the "size" of the 51 pt module (what ever it is) doesn't preclude it's use in a "compact" body, but just given the fact that that module IS in the 7100, one can only presume it's lack of use in the Df has little to do with cost of actual physical size, that leaves product segmentation, no ?
What is the vertical dimension of CAM module in D7100? Are you saying Df is created not to compete with D7100?

--
http://www.libraw.org/
No that is NOT what he is saying at all

what he is saying is that the op said that the multicam 3500 sensor would have made the df larger and hence nikon did not use it

from the pictures and the fact it is in the d7100 and the d300, that logic seems to be false
Hi David (and others),

In fact Iliah has understood me well, but I have failed at explaining this very clearly.

I made two observations:

First, the 51-point CAM module, as seen in pictures, is higher than the 39-point module (apart from being wider, of course)

Second, there is a little more space under the floor of the mirror housing and the bottom plate in the D300 / D7100, on one hand, and the D600 / D610 / Df on the other hand.

There are obviously other things packed in this part of the camera, but the outside difference is about 5mm - not more, but clearly visible:

View attachment 431616
Cropped picture from Camera Size. D7100 to the left, Df to the right.
I do not think what you see.... I suspect you see the black area under the mirror as the bottom of the mirror box, but that is not correct. The dark grey part under that is the bottom of the mirror box. Same space for each then.
My conclusion is this:

* We have seen the same decisions in the Canon 6D vs the 5D MkIII - a smaller CAM module in a smaller body. This is not unique for Nikon. Incidentally, perhaps you could say that the 6D's module is even more limited in terms of outer focus points.
The 6D has a center point which takes up a lot of AF sensor real-estate. You can't just count the number of AF points and conclude that somehow the sensor module has to be deeper...
* I believe both Canon and Nikon have concluded that the AF performance of these cameras is entirely satisfactory, if the intended customer is not a sports shooter.

* I do not think that Nikon wanted to save 40 or 60 dollars (no, I don't know the actual cost difference) by specifying the 4800FX CAM module in the Df. Believe what you like, but Nikon is not stupid. If they can offer a higher-specified camera for a similar price, they will of course do so. Yes, I am very familiar with the term cannibalizing.

* I beleive they were strictly focused on making the most compact DSLR in the world - something that DpR, ironically, failed to acknowledge.
I agree that with a person choosing a camera with many old style dials, sports AF modules are not a high priority.
To one person asking: No, these are my conclusions only. I have not taken these cameras apart.

* In some respects, in this particular review, I had a strong impression that DpR chose only to see the back side of the coin. That bothered me, and that is one of the reason I opened this thread.

Gabriel
 
you can use View NX to convert your NEFs to TIFFs, and it's default is to duplicate the camera's Picture Control settings. you can then freely postprocess (or not) the results in the tools of your choice.
 
It's true that press photographers mainly shoot JPEGs. Their incomes depend on sending images back to the office quickly, these days mainly over 3G/4G data, and their work is published on newsprint or as small JPEGs on websites. Other types of professionals, including editorial, fashion, advertising, stck, commercial and domestic (weddings, families) mainly shoot RAW.

A JPEG is analogous to a commercial enprint made from negative film: it's a computer's interpretation of how the scene may have looked. Modern cameras' JPEG engines are better than older ones', but they are still only computers.

To make matters worse, each time a JPEG is opened, edited and saved, it is degraded in quality. Putting a JPEG through PP software is a highly destructive process.
This is true unfortunately.

This degradation is indeed a big disadvantage of shooting jpeg, but when the files does come good out the camera, and there is no need for PP, then there is really no big problem.
When jpegs are copied, moved or anything else than edited, there is no degradation yet.

It's a pity why it isn't possible to let the camera apply (at least) the same basic lens based in-camera corrections such as vignetting, distortion and CA, to NEF's in the same way as it does with jpegs. When this is also possible with NEF's it can save a lot of PP time.

Modern Nikon camera's know which lens is mounted, so why not using this data for the correction of NEF's too?

So far I know AWB setting is applied to both jpegs and NEF's, so why not also with the other settings?

Nikon should make this a setting which can be turned on or off at will to please everyone.
Mark,

I am sure that you are absolutely right about professionals shooting fashion, advertising etc. But, as Ruud says, if there is no need for PP, then there is really no big problem with jpegs.

I am not that interested in camera technology per se. But when I started shooting my D600 last year, I was absolutely in awe over the jpeg quality, in particular coupled to the automated fixes the D600 now does to the image files. With the D800 and D600, Nikon seemed to have made a big leap. Jpeg was now better than I ever got out of raw files in the past.

This is what I thought:

There is a dividing line between the jpeg image quality of (otherwise very good) Nikon cameras from before 2011 or so, represented by the D3, D3x, D3s, D700 and D300s, and the present generation D800, D600 / D610, D4 and Df.

Unfortunately, all the present Canons fall in the same category as the pre - 2011 Nikons.

What is unique about the jpegs from the D800, D600 / D610 and I believe, to some extent at least, the D4 and Df, is three things. Please regard these three ingredients together, put them in one bowl and think for a second what you get:

1) They combine an extremely clean Expeed 3 processing from very clean sensors, straight out of the camera.

2) Their jpegs are automatically corrected for CA, distortion, vignetting,
an adjustable level of D-Lighting, allows fine tuning of sharpness, contrast, saturation and hue, noise reduction, amount of compression - at the same time as the picture is taken.

And, at the same time, add to this one of the topics of this post:

3) You can even use your jpegs to pull up the shadows by two stops or more, if they turned out too black

I wrote about this in a blog a year ago if anyone is interested. This is the second post dealing with jpeg specifically: http://nikonsystem.blogspot.se/2013_01_11_archive.html

This fourth thing obviously has nothing to do with jpeg or raw, but it was introduced at the same time as the improvements in jpeg processing in the present Nikon FX generation, and it mixes particularly well together with what these jpegs offer:

4) The Auto ISO is exceptionally clever. For myself, I see no point in ever touching ISO manually.

These are my observations.

Now, my point is this:

If I were to buy a new DSLR today, I would not accept one that cannot do all of this.

With excellent cameras such as the D3, D700 or the Canons, the serious shooter will more or less have to shoot raw. The D610 and D800 give you a choice.

For the first time, we have the option to shoot quick and easy, often with state-of-the-art IQ, without even spending 10 seconds at the computer.

The D610 and the D800 do this jpeg magic with great panache, and was curious whether the Df does, too. As it stands, it seems entirely ok as well.

Gabriel
 
For the first time, we have the option to shoot quick and easy, often with state-of-the-art IQ, without even spending 10 seconds at the computer.

The D610 and the D800 do this jpeg magic with great panache, and was curious whether the Df does, too. As it stands, it seems entirely ok as well
That's why I found it strange why this "quick and easy" shooting is not also possible with NEF.

In fact, I seems obvious that the camera makes all these corrections *before* the captured image is converted to a jpeg and write it to the card. If so, it has to be technically possible to convert it to a NEF *after* the corrections. That would be great. Maybe in a future firmware update?
 
For the first time, we have the option to shoot quick and easy, often with state-of-the-art IQ, without even spending 10 seconds at the computer.

The D610 and the D800 do this jpeg magic with great panache, and was curious whether the Df does, too. As it stands, it seems entirely ok as well
That's why I found it strange why this "quick and easy" shooting is not also possible with NEF.

In fact, I seems obvious that the camera makes all these corrections *before* the captured image is converted to a jpeg and write it to the card. If so, it has to be technically possible to convert it to a NEF *after* the corrections. That would be great. Maybe in a future firmware update?
No need, much bad, was tried and turned to be wrong, will never happen again.
 
please take a look at the original
I looked. It is a boring, poorly composed and exposed photo, a snapshot, absolutely not something I would be using as an example, and especially not as a starting point to show how good are jpegs for processing. As far as processing you suggested, yes, I know Nikon View shortcuts. Result is - extreme noise, awkward colour, and voids in shadows brought to visibility. Photoshop is the better tool by far. Even better, if it starts with a proper shot.

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http://www.libraw.org/
Iliah,

I am not going to try to persuade you more into understanding this aspect of jpegs if you feel reluctant. The jpeg from DpR's gallery images was the one I found. If anyone would like to supply a better example, I would be happy!

I agree entirely that it would be far better to start with a 'proper shot'.

But please allow me to ask again:

* you said the picture was posterized. I ask, where?

* And now you say you see extreme noise. Where?

* Finally, you claim that Photoshop does this better. I am sorry, but this once was a big issue for me so I must be persistent and ask - have you tried shadow lifting jpegs in Photoshop?

A year ago, I started a blog, link below. I haven't updated it since but it may be interesting to some. If you are interested in the different posts, it can be navigated through 'Blog Archive' in the top right corner.

Best, Gabriel

http://nikonsystem.blogspot.se/
I think Photoshop may have gotten better recently:



I love the new Camera Raw filter in Photoshop CC :)
I love the new Camera Raw filter in Photoshop CC :)

--
John Walker
 
For the first time, we have the option to shoot quick and easy, often with state-of-the-art IQ, without even spending 10 seconds at the computer.

The D610 and the D800 do this jpeg magic with great panache, and was curious whether the Df does, too. As it stands, it seems entirely ok as well
That's why I found it strange why this "quick and easy" shooting is not also possible with NEF.

In fact, I seems obvious that the camera makes all these corrections *before* the captured image is converted to a jpeg and write it to the card. If so, it has to be technically possible to convert it to a NEF *after* the corrections. That would be great. Maybe in a future firmware update?
No need, much bad, was tried and turned to be wrong, will never happen again.
You say it was tried before to implement this and turned to be wrong? Why was it bad? Could you explain? Thanks.

Ruud
 
I agree. But where do we go now?

P.S. The above is a serious question.
Jay, I wish I knew the answer. There are other review sites like Imaging-Resources, dedicated forums like Nikonian.org, Fred Miranda, Photo.net, there are camera bloggers like Steve Huff, Thom Hogan's sites, but there doesn't seem to be one centralized camera website that has forums and reviews except for the much smaller Photo.net community.

As far as DPR, with Gearshop and reviews and the ever expanding into Connect and the near constant overselling of mirrorless cameras, this website just feels wrong. It's like they are expanding quickly with the addition of all these things, but they are forgetting that is was quality reviews that made DPR a good resource back in Phil Askey days. The reviews take forever to complete, they are basically using the same HTML template to write all the reviews, and the problem is that most new reviews feel like they've been phoned in. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever.

Personally I've never been one to depend on any online reviews. If I like a camera, it images look good, the camera has the features I need at a price that is not too bad, I'll buy it. Simple.
 
For the first time, we have the option to shoot quick and easy, often with state-of-the-art IQ, without even spending 10 seconds at the computer.

The D610 and the D800 do this jpeg magic with great panache, and was curious whether the Df does, too. As it stands, it seems entirely ok as well
That's why I found it strange why this "quick and easy" shooting is not also possible with NEF.

In fact, I seems obvious that the camera makes all these corrections *before* the captured image is converted to a jpeg and write it to the card. If so, it has to be technically possible to convert it to a NEF *after* the corrections. That would be great. Maybe in a future firmware update?
No need, much bad, was tried and turned to be wrong, will never happen again.
You say it was tried before to implement this and turned to be wrong? Why was it bad?
Nikon D1 original was baking white balance into the nefs. G-d forbid to shoot with wrong WB setting, I made that mistake once. Any problem in auto white balance and there is no way back.

Application of wrong white balance can rob up to 3 stops of dynamic range.
 
you can use View NX to convert your NEFs to TIFFs, and it's default is to duplicate the camera's Picture Control settings. you can then freely postprocess (or not) the results in the tools of your choice.
Thanks Murray.

Does this also apply for lens based corrections such as vignetting, distortion and CA?
So, if I understand it correctly, these data is already embedded (or copied) in the NEF file and the NX view software use this data to make the corrections while converting it to TIFF. Correct?

Ruud
 
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