Reading mode: Light Dark

Vibration of the A7R shutter compared to D3 and NEX-7 using a seismometer

Go to last post
ferrellmc

ferrellmc

Well-known member
Messages
106
Reaction score
63
Location
Laurel, MD, US
I got the A7R and there was lots of posts about the shutter noise. I did a little waveform analysis and looked at how it compared to other cameras. I can deal with shutter noise but what concerned me most was shutter vibration - was it worse than other cameras? Could I trust anyones subjective opinion on how the shutter release felt? Would it effect image quality?

I set out to get some graphic output of the shutter release and hopefully learn a few things about the A7R.

beforethecoffee.com

Sony A7R Shutter ~~VIBRATION~~

If you own the A7R and would like to ask Sony to review the issue and consider a firmware update that allows for an optional 2 second (approx.) delay after the first curtain closing then please drop them an email:[email protected] is a two part analysis. Part I uses the app called…
beforethecoffee.com
 
Interesting test. Did you try the EFC on the NEX7?

All the best,

Chris
 
Thanks for the test!
 
Chris_Downunder said:
Interesting test. Did you try the EFC on the NEX7?
Click to expand...
Guess the test was performed without the electronic first curtain enabled on the NEX-7, because if EFC was enabled there shouldn't be any vibrations before and during the exposure (except maybe a bit from the aperture). A pity that the A7R doesn't have EFC like other recent Sony cameras (including the A7).
 
Steen Bay said:
Chris_Downunder said:
Interesting test. Did you try the EFC on the NEX7?
Click to expand...
Guess the test was performed without the electronic first curtain enabled on the NEX-7, because if EFC was enabled there shouldn't be any vibrations before and during the exposure (except maybe a bit from the aperture). A pity that the A7R doesn't have EFC like other recent Sony cameras (including the A7).
Click to expand...
P.S. - Took another look and can see now that the electronic first curtain actually was ON on NEX-7... but if so, where does the vibrations before and during the exposure come from?
 
Last edited:
I design and test phones for a mobile phone company. I have dabbled in some testing and design guidelines for vibrators within phones.

I can say that the center of mass as well as the location of the vibration source, with respect to that center, make a big difference. It would be difficult to measure the vibration at the sensor. The sensor is likely near the center of mass of the camera, which would make vibration minimal. Vibration would be peak at locations furthest from the center of mass, like the shutter button. That could increase user perception of vibration, but actual vibration at the sensor would be much less.

I haven't dabbled much with the accelerometer, but doubt the ones built into phones are very repeatable. It's also worth noting that the accelerometerwithin your iPhone is likely off the center of mass. That could compound the perceived vibration as it translates from shutter, to hot shoe to iPhone to accelerometer.

Good experiment. I'm inclined to replicate it in a lab, but I'll need an A7/r for that. :)

Edit: Fixed spelling errors as a result of spell check not believing "accelerometer" was a word.
 
Last edited:
Steen Bay said:
Steen Bay said:
Chris_Downunder said:
Interesting test. Did you try the EFC on the NEX7?
Click to expand...
Guess the test was performed without the electronic first curtain enabled on the NEX-7, because if EFC was enabled there shouldn't be any vibrations before and during the exposure (except maybe a bit from the aperture). A pity that the A7R doesn't have EFC like other recent Sony cameras (including the A7).
Click to expand...
P.S. - Took another look and can see now that the electronic first curtain actually was ON on NEX-7... but if so, where does the vibrations before and during the exposure come from?
Click to expand...
I saw exactly what you are saying, went back and checked 75 images, that image is EFC OFF, I mistakenly said it was ON. Thank you for pointing it out.
 
Thanks for sharing! :-D

FWIW I like the idea of the laser pointer test I read about on Luminous Landscape. Basically, you tape a laser pointer to the camera, aim it at a wall and if you can see the dot wiggle when the shutter fires, you might want to beef up your tripod.
 
Jefenator said:
Thanks for sharing! :-D

FWIW I like the idea of the laser pointer test I read about on Luminous Landscape. Basically, you tape a laser pointer to the camera, aim it at a wall and if you can see the dot wiggle when the shutter fires, you might want to beef up your tripod.
Click to expand...
 
ferrellmc said:
Steen Bay said:
Steen Bay said:
Chris_Downunder said:
Interesting test. Did you try the EFC on the NEX7?
Click to expand...
Guess the test was performed without the electronic first curtain enabled on the NEX-7, because if EFC was enabled there shouldn't be any vibrations before and during the exposure (except maybe a bit from the aperture). A pity that the A7R doesn't have EFC like other recent Sony cameras (including the A7).
Click to expand...
P.S. - Took another look and can see now that the electronic first curtain actually was ON on NEX-7... but if so, where does the vibrations before and during the exposure come from?
Click to expand...
I saw exactly what you are saying, went back and checked 75 images, that image is EFC OFF, I mistakenly said it was ON. Thank you for pointing it out.
Click to expand...
 
ferrellmc said:
Jefenator said:
Thanks for sharing! :-D

FWIW I like the idea of the laser pointer test I read about on Luminous Landscape. Basically, you tape a laser pointer to the camera, aim it at a wall and if you can see the dot wiggle when the shutter fires, you might want to beef up your tripod.
Click to expand...
In my test I discovered that mounting the camera on a tripod doesn't help the vibration. I added that graphic to the post. I used a Really Right Stuff carbon-fiber tripod and their ball head.
Click to expand...
That is not surprising. Resting on a sturdy desk could be just as stable as your tripod setup.

What I find puzzling is the peak values of the a7r handheld data aren't all that different from that of the camera resting on the desk. Are the vertical scales different between the tests? One would generally expect the observed response to be less with the camera more rigidly supported.

Watching the spot from a laser pointer dance on a wall is simple technique to evaluate camera support steadiness and the potential for motion blur yet it is very seldom mentioned.
  • John
 
These results are interesting & it would be nice to see what happens at a range of different shutter speeds. Some caution in interpreting the data is needed however because these vibrations are being measured at the periphery of the camera body & do not necessarily reflect what is happening at the sensor. How the sensor moves will depend on how well it is isolated from the rest of the vibrating body & on any inherent resonance frequencies of the sensor itself.

One way of sorting this out would be to correlate the measured vibrations with a critical examination of the images obtained from individual cameras. It is just possible that if the vibrations are successfully diverted to the outside of the camera body then there is less at the sensor level ?

It should not be totally surprising that using a tripod doesn't seem to help - the more rigid the tripod the more any vibrations may be reflected back & contained in the camera body. Something like a box attached underneath the tripod plate containing lead shot would help to dissipate any vibration & prevent it from being reflected back. More plastic components in the camera body may well have the same effect ?
 
Jefenator said:
Thanks for sharing! :-D

FWIW I like the idea of the laser pointer test I read about on Luminous Landscape. Basically, you tape a laser pointer to the camera, aim it at a wall and if you can see the dot wiggle when the shutter fires, you might want to beef up your tripod.
Click to expand...
If you tape a little mirror to the camera, and reflect the laser beam, it will give a bigger trace on the wall.
 
fotowbert said:
What I find puzzling is the peak values of the a7r handheld data aren't all that different from that of the camera resting on the desk. Are the vertical scales different between the tests? One would generally expect the observed response to be less with the camera more rigidly supported.
Click to expand...
The hands will damp vibration to some extent.
fotowbert said:
Watching the spot from a laser pointer dance on a wall is simple technique to evaluate camera support steadiness and the potential for motion blur yet it is very seldom mentioned.
  • John
Click to expand...
 
What we really want to see is the vibration of the sensor relative to the lens and subject.

How about making a few pinholes in some black paper, putting the paper on a light box several feet away from the camera, and looking at the resulting images ?

Bearing in mind that the images will have to be scaled so that the distance between pinholes is the same on the computer screen.
 
Keit ll said:
These results are interesting & it would be nice to see what happens at a range of different shutter speeds. Some caution in interpreting the data is needed however because these vibrations are being measured at the periphery of the camera body & do not necessarily reflect what is happening at the sensor.
Click to expand...
These measurements may not even be accurately representing the behavior at the camera body when you consider the attachment of the iphone to the camera body. The OP's description has the flat side of the iphone held against the hot shoe with rubber bands. Accurate vibration measurements require the accelerometers to be rigidly attached (like bolts or epoxy perhaps) otherwise the data is likely being influenced by the iphone vibrating relative to the camera body.
Keit ll said:
How the sensor moves will depend on how well it is isolated from the rest of the vibrating body & on any inherent resonance frequencies of the sensor itself.
Click to expand...
The a7r 1/2 sec Z channel data show about a 40 Hz resonance superimposed upon a much slower event which damps out after 1/3 of the exposure. Something is definitely resonating but what that is is unclear.

There could well be some designed in isolation of the shutter mechanism from the rest of the camera body since it is the source of the vibration. However with the exception of IBIS there should be absolutely no movement of the sensor relative to the lens mount as this would seriously degrade image quality. This is in addition to any movement during exposure of the lens mount relative to global space which is what we generally think of as "camera shake". Image blur is the sum of both movements.
Keit ll said:
One way of sorting this out would be to correlate the measured vibrations with a critical examination of the images obtained from individual cameras.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed. This is crucial. Without some proof of concept there can be no confidence in any conclusions made from these measurements.

So while many may note that the 1/2 sec data seems to show either the NEX 7 or D3 (with mirror lock-up) are similar with the least vibration, followed by the D3 (without mirror lock-up) and the a7r worst of the bunch, this conclusion is meaningless.
  • John
 
fotowbert said:
Keit ll said:
These results are interesting & it would be nice to see what happens at a range of different shutter speeds. Some caution in interpreting the data is needed however because these vibrations are being measured at the periphery of the camera body & do not necessarily reflect what is happening at the sensor.
Click to expand...
These measurements may not even be accurately representing the behavior at the camera body when you consider the attachment of the iphone to the camera body. The OP's description has the flat side of the iphone held against the hot shoe with rubber bands. Accurate vibration measurements require the accelerometers to be rigidly attached (like bolts or epoxy perhaps) otherwise the data is likely being influenced by the iphone vibrating relative to the camera body.
fotowbert said:
How the sensor moves will depend on how well it is isolated from the rest of the vibrating body & on any inherent resonance frequencies of the sensor itself.
Click to expand...
The a7r 1/2 sec Z channel data show about a 40 Hz resonance superimposed upon a much slower event which damps out after 1/3 of the exposure. Something is definitely resonating but what that is is unclear.

There could well be some designed in isolation of the shutter mechanism from the rest of the camera body since it is the source of the vibration. However with the exception of IBIS there should be absolutely no movement of the sensor relative to the lens mount as this would seriously degrade image quality. This is in addition to any movement during exposure of the lens mount relative to global space which is what we generally think of as "camera shake". Image blur is the sum of both movements.
fotowbert said:
One way of sorting this out would be to correlate the measured vibrations with a critical examination of the images obtained from individual cameras.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed. This is crucial. Without some proof of concept there can be no confidence in any conclusions made from these measurements.

So while many may note that the 1/2 sec data seems to show either the NEX 7 or D3 (with mirror lock-up) are similar with the least vibration, followed by the D3 (without mirror lock-up) and the a7r worst of the bunch, this conclusion is meaningless.
Click to expand...
While I agree with most of your comments , your conclusion is a little harsh ? The conclusion should be that these results are highly suggestive & require further investigations to confirm a vibration issue which is affecting IQ
 
Keit ll said:
fotowbert said:
Keit ll said:
These results are interesting & it would be nice to see what happens at a range of different shutter speeds. Some caution in interpreting the data is needed however because these vibrations are being measured at the periphery of the camera body & do not necessarily reflect what is happening at the sensor.
Click to expand...
These measurements may not even be accurately representing the behavior at the camera body when you consider the attachment of the iphone to the camera body. The OP's description has the flat side of the iphone held against the hot shoe with rubber bands. Accurate vibration measurements require the accelerometers to be rigidly attached (like bolts or epoxy perhaps) otherwise the data is likely being influenced by the iphone vibrating relative to the camera body.
Keit ll said:
How the sensor moves will depend on how well it is isolated from the rest of the vibrating body & on any inherent resonance frequencies of the sensor itself.
Click to expand...
The a7r 1/2 sec Z channel data show about a 40 Hz resonance superimposed upon a much slower event which damps out after 1/3 of the exposure. Something is definitely resonating but what that is is unclear.

There could well be some designed in isolation of the shutter mechanism from the rest of the camera body since it is the source of the vibration. However with the exception of IBIS there should be absolutely no movement of the sensor relative to the lens mount as this would seriously degrade image quality. This is in addition to any movement during exposure of the lens mount relative to global space which is what we generally think of as "camera shake". Image blur is the sum of both movements.
Keit ll said:
One way of sorting this out would be to correlate the measured vibrations with a critical examination of the images obtained from individual cameras.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed. This is crucial. Without some proof of concept there can be no confidence in any conclusions made from these measurements.

So while many may note that the 1/2 sec data seems to show either the NEX 7 or D3 (with mirror lock-up) are similar with the least vibration, followed by the D3 (without mirror lock-up) and the a7r worst of the bunch, this conclusion is meaningless.
Click to expand...
While I agree with most of your comments , your conclusion is a little harsh ? The conclusion should be that these results are highly suggestive & require further investigations to confirm a vibration issue which is affecting IQ
Click to expand...
Seems that vibrations (or 'shutter shock') can affect the sharpness in DPR's new comparison tool :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52614940
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Hotel Lonely
  • User review User review
a1 II: the camera that the original a1 should have been
Replies
9
Views
2K
Interceptor121
I
C
Sony A7R V + 20-70mm f/4 as second body
2
Replies
20
Views
848
CydeWeys
C
Jeroen1969
Olympus OM-1, OM System OM-1.2 and the Sony A7R IV A, a nice threesome!
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
NowHearThis
NowHearThis
L
Does Canon IS or Nikon VR lens stabilization work on Sony NEX-7?
Replies
7
Views
22
lowep
L
L
Sony a7 OG vs a7c
Replies
12
Views
577
Lee Croft
L

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top