My 'God' verses your pretender god. And so on. It is what conflict is made of.
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Why so much animosity between DSLR users and mirrorless uers?
- Thread starter jayrandomer
- Start date
Why the animosity? Beats me. I don't know why anyone would care what camera someone else uses. I guess that some people become fans of their type or brand of camera like people become fans of a sports team. They root for and defend their "team" against all challenges. Humans are pack animals and it's natural to defend the pack. Or this is all psychobabble and some people just like to argue about anything.
Show me someone who isn't biased. Seriously. Being biased towards or against one thing or another is an innate part of human behaviour. But in this case it's not my bias that's telling me that there is and has been an aspect of elitism in the DSLR ranks for quite some time now. Rather, it is an obvious fact.
The phenomenon is certainly not unique to DSLR users however. In fact because of the marketing campaigns run by various smartphone manufacturers, we've got millions of smartphone users running around thinking that their smartphone cameras are so good that they've made all other cameras redundant. Some of them actually think that the rest of us are idiots who have simply wasted our money, and are causing ourselves a great deal of unnecessary inconvenience. That's elitism right there, too. But the difference between people like that, and people like me, is that I don't think that every DSLR owner has wasted their money. I'd rather let people enjoy their own particular choices. In fact I'm still actively exploring the world of gear, and although I'm having fun in m43 land at the moment, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that at some point I am going to feel compelled to explore the DSLR frontier as well, especially since I've recently become a little nostalgic about my former SLR days. In fact I'm even thinking of starting to shoot some film again occasionally, just for the pure retro joy of it. I sometimes really miss those trips to the lab to pick up some prints, because there was always an element of surprise involved.
Anyway...
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ShaunW73
Member
I have both, I also have an iPhone, a Lomography Knstruktor film camera, and a Canon A1. I use whatever I have with me, or whatever is suitable for the activity/location I'm in.
The people that argue about which is best are missing the whole point of photography. It's about the image, it's composition, what it says. Not about the equipment.
The people that argue about which is best are missing the whole point of photography. It's about the image, it's composition, what it says. Not about the equipment.
Why be mad at tablet photographers? It is their right and their choice to use whatever they want to capture an image. They could certainly use a HB pencil and paper and as long as it floats their boat, let them get on with it.
jonathanj
Leading Member
Actually, I'd disagree with you on brand vs. format wars... Personally I find that format wars are limited to certain threads (like this one 
) that I can either read or ignore as I choose. But brand wars spillover into many different threads and poison whole areas of discussion. (Try and discuss which mid level DSLR to buy and count how long before the fanbois and haters pile on...)
But, to answer your question, in my opinion it's because they are pretty much interchangeable for most users. There's not much animosity between, e.g., users of pro-equipment and users point and shoots, because pretty much everyone recognizes the two are not interchangeable and have different strengths. But because most users could use either a DSLR or a ILC, but have picked one, they feel the need to justify that decision. In fact, I'd hypothesise that those users on this forum who have a genuine reason for picking one over the other (e.g the people who need (really need, not just think they need) ultra-fast continuos autofocus or have a bad back and can't carry much weight) are the people who do *not* get deeply involved in the pro/con arguments, because they don't feel the need to justify themselves. On the contrary, if you look at the users who talk the most about one format over the other, they are the people who shoot the kind of photos that could be easily taken with pretty much any camera, so they they need to talk up why they picked the one they did to justify it to themselves.
That's my theory, anyway
) that I can either read or ignore as I choose. But brand wars spillover into many different threads and poison whole areas of discussion. (Try and discuss which mid level DSLR to buy and count how long before the fanbois and haters pile on...)But, to answer your question, in my opinion it's because they are pretty much interchangeable for most users. There's not much animosity between, e.g., users of pro-equipment and users point and shoots, because pretty much everyone recognizes the two are not interchangeable and have different strengths. But because most users could use either a DSLR or a ILC, but have picked one, they feel the need to justify that decision. In fact, I'd hypothesise that those users on this forum who have a genuine reason for picking one over the other (e.g the people who need (really need, not just think they need) ultra-fast continuos autofocus or have a bad back and can't carry much weight) are the people who do *not* get deeply involved in the pro/con arguments, because they don't feel the need to justify themselves. On the contrary, if you look at the users who talk the most about one format over the other, they are the people who shoot the kind of photos that could be easily taken with pretty much any camera, so they they need to talk up why they picked the one they did to justify it to themselves.
That's my theory, anyway
Must say that I have never met a camera-snob in person. I doubt whether such people are worth socialising with. There are more important fish to fry.
It was something of a parody, that's all. In other words, a bit of humour, designed to contrast with my earlier sentiments to the contrary.
Ruined now that I've had to explain it though!
(there's definitely some sort of sarcasm dampening field permeating throughout this place
)
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Ontario Gone
Senior Member
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This is, although not in the same way as you are describing, the heart of the issue. The answer to the OP is survival. No brand or format is immune to death, none. If one or two brands dominate far enough, it can put another smaller brand out of business. What would that mean to the guys holding 12k in lenses? Good luck selling all that glass for a dead system. Everybody, perhaps on a subconscious level, knows this. We all want our brand to do well, if for only because it is beneficial to us holding that gear.
Does ego play a part? perhaps. Does a sense of honesty come into play? Sure, maybe. But, self preservation is the number one reason. We have this built in sense that if we talk up a system, and enough people listen, we can help the brand survive. Who wants the world talking crap about their brand, potentially trashing it's good name and affecting sales? Every penny counts, and companies that die off do so one dollar at a time. Even if you don't have a fortune invested in a system, you still bought it because you like THAT system. You don't want to see it go, it fits you, that's why you bought it. For it to die off is for you to lose out.
Self preservation people, this is why it is such a personal affair. Once we make our choice, be it due to financial investment or our being content with the brand, we will lose out if that brand goes belly up. Word of mouth is still the best advertisement and none of us want bad word of mouth destroying our fun.
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The problem with all but the broadest, most obvious sarcasm and parodies is that there are so many people who might post the exact same text--and seriously mean it!It was something of a parody, that's all. In other words, a bit of humour, designed to contrast with my earlier sentiments to the contrary.
Ruined now that I've had to explain it though!
(there's definitely some sort of sarcasm dampening field permeating throughout this place
EvokeEmotion
Leading Member
(Some) people like to use tablets to take pictures because they have a humongous LCD screen to frame the shot and to review the image.It was something of a parody, that's all. In other words, a bit of humour, designed to contrast with my earlier sentiments to the contrary.
Ruined now that I've had to explain it though!
(there's definitely some sort of sarcasm dampening field permeating throughout this place
No, Pros use DSLRs, not mirrorless and that irks those people to no end. Pros use medium format and may not use a FF because of the work they do. A FF dslr guy does not get upset about that. I think this is the single biggest sticking point. While there may be a few pros that use mirrorless there are a a small number.
I use a phone and a DSLR. I don't beat up on the phone, in fact, I think the improvements to phones is better than DSLRs, that is why I upgraded the phone but not the dslr
Bad analogy. A pro DSLR is not a 1ton truck. It is the fastest most agile vehicle on the planet, it uses expensive parts, it is more like and F1, only pros use them. Lesser DSLRs or high performance cars. Mirrorless right now is like the family truckster. Just doesn't measure up to a DSLR, although it does measure up to old dslrs or economy models.
This would be a closer analogy. The DSLR is more desktop/laptop, the mirrorless are smaller and more tablet. But everyone know the tablet is not the ultimate computing platform, it is actually not that great, it is just lighter and more portable.
Yep.
007peter
Forum Pro
The war was started by group of "insecure" Mirrorless Users keep calling for the DEATH OF DSLR.....in spite that DSLR outsold every mirrorless camera combine.
The GAP between the claim of [DSLR DEATH] vs [Actual Sales] is outrageous that every forum thread proclaiming the death of DSLR is met without counter examples. Hence the WAR.
To me, camera are just camera. I used to shoot DSLR, but I went 100% mirrorless because I want something lighter and smaller. Just because DSLR no longer meet my needs, doesn't make it a obsolete. The world, afterall, doesn't revolve around me.
I do wish other mirrorless user would shut-up about the claim of DSLR death. It's rather embarrassing.
The GAP between the claim of [DSLR DEATH] vs [Actual Sales] is outrageous that every forum thread proclaiming the death of DSLR is met without counter examples. Hence the WAR.
To me, camera are just camera. I used to shoot DSLR, but I went 100% mirrorless because I want something lighter and smaller. Just because DSLR no longer meet my needs, doesn't make it a obsolete. The world, afterall, doesn't revolve around me.
I do wish other mirrorless user would shut-up about the claim of DSLR death. It's rather embarrassing.
OpticsEngineer
Veteran Member
Many years ago in graduate school, one of my professors told me the smaller the difference being debated on an academic topic, the louder and more heated the arguments become.
His point to me was to recognize it for what it was, then concentrate on things that actually mattered.
His point to me was to recognize it for what it was, then concentrate on things that actually mattered.
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I would be more inclined to be angry at the manufacturers, the way the held back on developing the fixed lens cameras until sony's attempts recently to fit a decent size sensor.
Instead the manufacturers coerced people into buying interchangeable lens cameras with the flow on effect that they would get more money from lens sales. People fell for this hook line and sinker, and it makes me angry when such suckers come on these forums a try to get others to do the same as they did and buy these bloated non portable cameras.
If I see another post saying to a beginner that they need a DSLR I will scream.
Fortunately ordinary people are fighting back by using their phones to take photos leaving the camera makers wondering how they are going to rip us off now.
Brian
Instead the manufacturers coerced people into buying interchangeable lens cameras with the flow on effect that they would get more money from lens sales. People fell for this hook line and sinker, and it makes me angry when such suckers come on these forums a try to get others to do the same as they did and buy these bloated non portable cameras.
If I see another post saying to a beginner that they need a DSLR I will scream.
Fortunately ordinary people are fighting back by using their phones to take photos leaving the camera makers wondering how they are going to rip us off now.
Brian
Les Berkley
Senior Member
Now this thread is funny. The poor OP tries to get a rational discussion started, and the fanpersons jump in with their usual silly arguments. "Pro's (sic) don't use mirrorless!" Who cares? "DSLR's are old technology!" Who cares? In a few more posts, they'll be arguing about Eye-Cue and 'bokeh' and shooting in the dark and all of that nonsense.
The cameras available now are pretty much all good; certainly, they are far better than most of their users (including me).
The cameras available now are pretty much all good; certainly, they are far better than most of their users (including me).
H
howardroark
Guest
I think arbitrary is a bit of a strong word. Choices are relative to our values, experiences, needs, wants, desires, biases, environment, etc. The circumstances that inform our ability to reason and make informed decisions about what we need and want may have been a result of arbitrary randomness of the universe, but that doesn't always imply our reasoning isn't based on sound logic and excellent, supportable justifications. If someone has a value or makes a choice without reflection, logic, and consideration for the consequences but instead only responds based strictly on emotion, external pressure, or the expectations of others then their choices are arbitrary. Chances are many people do behave this way.
What we love doing is based on who we are as a person, so it stands to reason that there would be some reciprocity there. Hopefully people would be able to avoid allowing that kind of thinking to influence their views of the world, but most people don't put that much thought into how they reach an opinion. Wanting expensive equipment in many cases simply comes from continuous study of a subject, knowing the differences between a cheap and expensive item that most people couldn't or don't care to notice, and then feeling compelled to maximize one's output despite any lack of skill in choosing a subject or fully controlling the process.
I don't think this is so much magical thinking as it is imitation. On the most fundamental level humans learn by imitating what others do in an effort to achieve the same outcome. Once we have the ability to use logic and reason we can simulate certain things intellectually or develop entirely new behaviors strictly in theory to test them out before actually physcially trying them. Those who become obsessed with the idea of being like someone else or as good as that person can easily mistake an imitation of how that person behaves and the skill that person has that others do not. I don't think this is superstition or magical thinking in this case, more admiration and desire match skills using easily acquired criteria that aren't, in reality, related to the skill itself. This is still primitive thought or lack of thought.
Wow, those are some convoluted philosophical knots you're tying, but that doesn't mean they are incorrect. I don't personally agree. People are detached from society, insecure, and they are replacing those human relationships with technological relationships. Because this type of interaction only goes in one direction, the object receiving love and giving none in return, people do feel empty and insecure and any disagreement with their choice of techno-lover is not only an emotional attack on them but it is also set against the backdrop of an extremely lacking sense of self and self-worth. How would you feel if everyone you loved treated you with indiffierence? This is why people get so offended when their device doesn't behave the way they expect or desire; their lover doesn't love them back and won't even do what they ask them to do. It may even reach the point of elevating their technology to a God-like status or magical status, further detaching the person from reality.
"Most" shots cover a whole lot of ground. If I'm shooting lightning most camera won't take the shot. If I'm shooting in a dim glass studio most camera won't take the shot. If I'm shooting products a camera without mirror-lockup and a remote shutter release will either likely vibrate or be a pain to use making the shot much less likely to be of high quality. If anyone is moving at a moderate rate of speed decent AF can easily make the difference between getting the shot and not. The ability to get a shot and get the shot you really want is a very fine, but important, line. Some of us who can spot the moment we want need a camera that can respond in that very moment. As for your own experience with camera equipment, all I can say is lucky you. I believe your criteria for shots and the criteria used by others might not match up exactly.
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Henry Falkner
Forum Pro
If you live in a cubicle 12 x 12 x 8 foot, and you have room for just your bed, your clothes, a laptop and maybe a camera, that camera is the only thing that distinguishes you from the inhabitant of the cubicle next door.
When you have paid as much for your camera as all your other possessions put together, it becomes the reason for your existence, so by defending your camera you are defending your existence.
I am only half joking. On her first visit here more than 12 years ago, Sandra said to me.... 'If you can't have your computers and your radios, you go out of your brain in a week...'
She could have said 'Camera', since she was modelling for me at that time, but I am digressing...
Henry
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