Will the snobbery eventually go away?

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

kkardster said:
Bah, humbug.

Just kidding! I too have noticed the significant drop in traffic on this forum. While some type of post used to occur at least every 10 minutes, there are now times when the latest post was over an hour ago! And when we can actually see the "Top posters in this forum" bar graphs (I can't at the moment), they're much shorter than they were just a few months ago. We can blame Rudy's move to the dark side and recent illnesses for some members, but that's not the real reason.

Rudy was actually with us quite a short time, but the positive vibe he generated was infectious and sorely missed.

kkardster said:
We are aware that the FZ users are a large part of this population, and the somewhat disappointing FZ70 and lack of an FZ200 refresh both contribute to a drop in traffic. [There's nothing new for Joms! ;-) ] We all agree that Panasonic has hit a home run with the FZ200 and they are still selling well, giving Panasonic pause as the competition plays catch-up

I see the FZ200 as Windows 7 and the FZ70 as Windows 8 for some reason.

kkardster said:
. Let's all hope that Panny is taking advantage of this additional time to truly knock our socks off with a new FZ model. Then we'll see activity pick up - including slings of arrows from competition fanboys - as Panasonic fights to remain king of the hill.

Well I know we would like a new FZ200, but there's little to improve on that gem is there. I think if I could have any wish granted of today's sensor handling in camera, it would be to make the image stacking a serious tool, and have its selection and control a dialled function as opposed to a scene mode or deep menu function.

kkardster said:
Going a bit off topic (sorry!),

Yes, the competition is responding. Most continue to compete on salable specs like zoom X-factor and megapixels, which appeal to the masses. Panasonic has been forced to join that battle and did well by at least meeting the reach of the competition while bettering them on X-factor by also going wider - kudos to Panasonic for firing back. Sony and Olympus have responded to the FZ200 by offering constant f/2.8 cameras with bigger sensors (and much bigger price tags), though with much less reach, making them an "almost" replacement for many who will wait to see what they come up with next. And if you have the jing, Olympus taunts us with their OM-D line while Fuji continues its mission as the sole source for manual superzoomers. However, none of the competition has come close to the FZ200's wealth of features anywhere near its price point.

I find the competition produce well specified, but not so hands on as my 50. If more designs could assign more control to individual fingers, and allow simultaneous function, then cameras would sit better in my hands and offer flowing control.

kkardster said:
So the question becomes, How will Panasonic respond? As I already noted, an FZ200 refresh could be one way and would be very welcome to members of this forum.

..........Christmas AND fireworks.

kkardster said:
Perhaps it's time for the whiz-bang "do-it-all" [for most] camera that many believe is possible [but would cannibalize more lucrative interchangeable lens sales]. (I've never bought that caveat - I simply can't believe that all camera makers would collude to protect ILC sales if there's the real possibility of cornering the market for a large segment of potential camera buyers.)

The whole industry is though. Only recently the situation has become so ridiculous that the dam is beginning to crack and leak through the likes of the RX10 and the Stylus 1 to aid the existing rivlet of offerings.

kkardster said:
The [possibly] sad truth is that if Panasonic doesn't respond in kind, their competition will/is. My first digital camera was a Kodak and I didn't shed a tear when I upgraded to my first Panasonic (simple DMC-LZ7, purchased to document installation work) and then added the FZ150 and FZ200 for personal use. True, my Panasonic camera history is not as checkered as many others, but that doesn't make me any less of a Panasonic enthisiast and I will no doubt continue in that light so long as Panasonic continues to give me reason. Back in the film days I was a staunch supporter of Olympus and their diminuative [for the times] OM series of SLRs featuring Off-the-Film (OTF) metering; if Panasonic drops the ball, I could end up going full circle should my FZ200 ever fail!

The best thing will be if Panasonic keep up the good work with the FZ200, and if the bigger manufacturers replace the FZ50; since panasonic are clinging to their M4/3 ideas. Nikon are soooo close to an FZ50 with their D5300 + AF-S DX Nikkor 18-300mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR. That's 27-450mm off the one lens! Though I have been warned to check the system out carefully before leaping in.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

GMACNEIL said:
Greetings. I agree with what you are saying here, and I have long enjoyed the friendly tone of this particular forum. It seems that the energy and enthusiasm expressed here corresponds to the introduction of new cameras. (Just consider how much chatter there was about the new FZ200 and how it would stack up against the "nearly perfect" FZ150.) Every once in a while a thread will include some harsh comments, but overall the spirit of the forum has remained positive.

Unlike the majority of posters here, I've stayed away from the FZ series.

Boooooooo

GMACNEIL said:
I have a Nikon DSLR and a Panasonic micro four-thirds along with my collection of TZ and ZS cameras. I am somewhat proficient with these (probably going back to my Olympus OM-1 firm days).

Another OM guy; a trend?

GMACNEIL said:
I don't do a lot of post-processing and I don't do much pixel peeping.

I pixel peeped myself to death of hobby almost. Still dabble but feel better now

GMACNEIL said:
I've found that I really like working with the ZS series. A lot of my shots are taken while on treks or camping excursions, so they are done quickly. (I am not an "automatic" shooter, but I really like the idea that I can adjust the ZS without thinking much about it.)

Here's a daft thing. As soon as Panasonic stopped calling the range the TZ, I stopped following its progress. Wierd huh.

GMACNEIL said:
Even the FZ cameras are larger than I want to carry on the belt of my pack, so the ZS cameras better-suit my needs.

Why have I included the previous paragraph? Simply because the snobbery John mentions can pervade even this happy forum. Beyond Erik and Daniel, there aren't many contributors who champion cameras other than the FZs. Granted, I need to step-up myself. I'll try to be a more-active and more-positive member in 2014.

Challenge accepted. And I'll try and get past the whole "ZS" thing.

GMACNEIL said:
Cheers to all the pleasant folks here!

doto41 · Dec 17, 2013

This forum is evolved into much more than a panasonic gear forum, which might have been the initial purpose. It is a true virtual camera club, in which I have learned a lot, enjoyed many gifted photographers' shots, and have been inspired by them, have received many comments of constructive criticism, and made quite a few friends too.

I have just bought a used Olympus EM5, after contemplating long and hard (as some of you know

) whether to go into m43 territory. One thing I know for sure: I won't leave the forum, and if you guys are willing to let me continue posting shots with other gear, this is my club, and it's members are those I won't to hear and read. It's relatively easy to get new gear, a lot more difficult to find new friends. and one should not interfere with the other IMHO.

Thanks to all who I've had the honour to learn from and enjoy their company over the few years I'm here. May you all have a happy, health and fruitful 2014, and share many more beautiful shot.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

Vandyu said:
John, much of what you said I must agree with as far as gear snobbery and some of the other forums being less inviting. When I bought my Nikon D80 several years ago when it was the latest and greatest, I felt welcome in the Nikon forum. I noticed, though, that there were posters who seemed to thrive on personal attacks and criticism and vying for the award of most opinionated user. When the D90 was introduced, my new cam became a dinosaur in their view.

I rarely go there now. This is the forum where I've spent countless hours enjoying reading posts, exchanging ideas, and making friends across the globe. But, lately I've noticed that the forum is slowing down and something is changing. I'd say since the introduction of the FZ70 as this year's entry in the FZ lineup. Many of us find this camera acceptable, but not particularly interesting. For me, it's not on the "gotta have" list, as my FZ150 is a better option and I already have that one. Sure, I'd probably swap for the FZ200, but just don't feel like I can dedicate $400 for that right now and that price would be a bargain. Too many other things on the must buy list.

I hope not all of the regulars will disappear into the Sony or Olympus forums, or possibly Nikon or Canon or M4/3. But, people do like to get new gadgets around the holidays, so that may well happen.

All I can say is, "If you're gonna leave, drop by once in a while and let us know your new address!" Oh, and just so you know, the place really won't be the same without you!

Well thank you and likewise I'm sure. I think my feistier days are behind me, though I still won't have the FZ50 put down obviously! For in my 'campaign' for the 50's replacement, I now wallow in the inevitable; despite the likelihood that it won't be Panasonic achieving it.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

And straight in from the wings .............A dov

Dov you above all here bring humble observations on life to this forum in often spectacular fashion with your photography. I hope I speak for all in saying: Use whatever camera you like.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

samualson said:
Well imo the World has been going down hill in a big way and that's unfortunate , the morals have disappeared to a large degree and people just don't treat each other very well for the most part.

Rudeness and criticism are commonplace and the younger generation don't know the definition of respect .

That being said the Panasonic forum regulars constantly request things and ideas so i don't know how you can say they aren't active.

What is true and unfortunate is the focus only on Pani's top tier camera's and not giving any discussion time to the lower end models , this has been the norm forever.

As for other manufactures catching up , they are all competitive but Pani has been right at the top with their flagship FZ model for years.

Agreed, but since they returned the FZ to the motor zoom I have had to set my gaze elsewhere sadly.

samualson said:
All you got to do is read all the reviews from a variety of sources and it's always Pani or Canon although there are trolls that invade the forum and will say and do anything to prove otherwise lol.

I think we all know who they or he is , if Pani wasn't at the top you wouldn't see any of them , plain and simple.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

Powerful rant there Frank.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

windmillgolfer said:
There is much truth in your post John. The arrival of a new enthusiast model can stimulate a renewed spurt of shooting, discussion and analysis but, I hope, we can continue to enjoy many high quality, interesting and entertaining images from members.

HERE HERE!

windmillgolfer said:
After all, the existing LX and FZ, plus the handy and always ready ZS, series are still plenty good enough.

And all their older counterparts in fact.

windmillgolfer said:
We just need the opportunity to get that shutter-finger going. In the UK, at least, the weather and daylight hours have reduced opportunities somewhat :-( I look forward to getting out again ASAP - son's house renovations and Christmas permitting.

Thanks again for your help with your comparison shots recently, and hope you are photographing the renovations.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

GeraldW said:
I doubt it will. There's always someone who can't help trying to "one-up" everyone else. Looking back in history, there has always been people like that - elitists.

Steady there Jerry ;-)

GeraldW said:
On the other hand, this forum is an island of civility compared to most of the others. Here, if I ask for help, it is forthcoming, and most often graciously offered. If I offer an opinion, nobody writes to tell me I'm an idiot. I do own a couple of Panasonics, and have had several more in the past; but the forum here makes me want to own more. It's a pleasant place to come; but it's also a treasure trove of good information. And just look at the cooperation that was evident when we were all trying to figure out how best to set our FZ200's.

Panasonic may be favoring 4/3 over fixed lens models. But they are a "for profit" company, and have to look after the bottom line. Otherwise, in a few years, we'll talk about Panasonic cameras in the same way we talk about Contax.

Yes but I can't help but think that if they passed by here every once in a while they'd hear some pretty useful feedback. We know Fuji hang around their forums here, so it is possible.

GeraldW said:
I've often thought that civilization is a thin veneer coated over our baser nature. In a lot of places, that veneer is wearing very thin. I'm not a terribly religious man; but I did want my children to grow up in a church environment. Why? Because the major religions of this world all have codes of behavior and I believe that's where that veneer gets applied. It's where we get our ethics and morals, and the basis of most of our laws.

In the children that have grown up in my community I see quality in incredible depth. They are confident, educated, polite and full of life; the lot of them. And how tiny those values started. I remember little tiny Amy and her bigger sister knocking on my door one day, asking to come in to play with my daughters (for the first time ever I might add). I said "I'm sorry I only let nice children in." to which Amy promptly planted feet square at ease, slammed hands on hips and retorted "WE ARE NICE CHILDREN!" I said "Well you had better come in then." "thank you" she said; with that lower case 't'.

GeraldW said:
One thing's for certain. I'll be here a lot longer.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

Erik Ohlson said:
I joined a local Camera Club and saw basically the same thing you are talking about - it's really no fun to sit around being sneered at by a bunch of folks who think having $$$$ cameras and 20+ pounds of lenses make them "better" than we small camera types.

So I attended a couple of meetings & won't bother to renew.

This forum will do fine substituting for a Club, just as it substitutes for Camera magazines!

I'm thinking of starting a local camera club, based on the comradery here, to the point that it is mandatory else you're banished!

Erik Ohlson said:
Rock on, Guys!

--
"Measure wealth not by things you have but by things for which you would not take money"
www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

--
__________________________________________________________________________
The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright, non-extending Leica 35-420mm F2.8-3.7 lens. I live in hope that Mr Ichiro Kitao, Mr Michiharu Uematsu and Mr Yoshiyuki Inoue have triggered the update to the FZ50. Please update the FZ50. It is unique and users of it cannot update without compromise of one or more of its combination of features. Full tribute here: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=42366095 . Performace diagram here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3862228415/photos/2623982/fz50-performance-range

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

AnalogJ said:
Boy, that is a loaded discussion topic.

Yep. Got the ol' mortar out and lobbed one in there

AnalogJ said:
But for me, it's about taking great photographs. Period.

The chat's fun too though.

AnalogJ said:
Knowing that there are limitations with regard to camera size, zoom size, etc., there are some great cameras at different price points. To me, Panasonic hit a home run with its LX7, yet most here are looking for the larger sensor.

You know I have to pin the FZ50 to ISO100 else the IQ plummets. I'd wager many an LX7 low light shot would benefit from keeping the ISO down and employing some old fashioned tactics from the film camera 100 ASA days; likely keeping still.

AnalogJ said:
Okay, but in a small package, there are drawbacks to a smaller sensor for physical reasons.

I still prefer the look of film, but it's very hard to keep that up if you're an amateur photographer like I am. There is at least one advantage to digital, and that is to be able to immediately check your work. But ultimately, I prefer film. I prefer the look of a great movie print on film stock rather than digital as well.

You use to be able to get a really excellent film camera for under $200 and that was partly because you had a 35mm film negative. Nowadays, that gets you a sensor a fraction of the price.

Regardless, like the audio forums I also read, it's about the music. Does a system allow the music to sing. I'm not interested in the newest and latest gadget. I'm a two-channel guy, I think analog reproduction sounds far more musical than digital reproduction, and I sit a short distance from and between the speakers and listen to the performance. I notice great masterings allow me to get closer to the performance, so I notice that.

Here, I find posts of extreme macro work, or someone's trip to Italy far more interesting than the gadgets. I do occasionally ask questions and/or read about how to get the best performance out of my LX7. And I get some awesome photos.

I don't understand those who need to buy a new camera every year. I want a great camera that doesn't go obsolete. If I outgrow it, I want to pass it onto someone else. Personally, I think if there were no further improvements in cameras EVER, we could get on with merely taking photos and sharing the art.

Good to read.

leeland48 · Dec 17, 2013

I agree John I can't stand poor people :-D
lee

kkardster · Dec 17, 2013

John Miles said:
You know I have to pin the FZ50 to ISO100 else the IQ plummets. I'd wager many an LX7 low light shot would benefit from keeping the ISO down and employing some old fashioned tactics from the film camera 100 ASA days; likely keeping still.

...or swapping rolls of film and sacrificing a couple shots for later upon reload. We sure like to complain about increasing the ISO, but it's a lot easier than it used to be! We don't even have to push our film to get crappy low-light performance any more!

Aberaeron · Dec 17, 2013

John Miles said:
In the early days of this Panasonic forum there developed a wonderful camaraderie over cameras that were fresh, innovative and breaking new ground in the camera world. These were the early FZ's.

In those days the people who bought these cameras were keen to talk and discuss their photography, but also almost uniquely possess no sense of camera snobbery or ill will toward others and their efforts in taking photographs.

The kit was great, but not in the scope of the gear heads and boasters. The kit was new, operating on a knife edge of performance; needing an intense exchange of discussion and samples to find all sorts of hidden corners of performance.

That very special environment, this Panasonic forum, persists to this day; but I sense that it is under threat. Panasonic has lost its edge in the camera world. It courts the attention of the gear heads and craves the gold from the lens change cameras. And when it produces great cameras for this forum, for some it stops developing them.

We are growing quiet here. The upgrades are diminishing and the designs less daring. Outside the scope of this forum camera designs are changing and evolving; gradually eating away at our population. Fuji and Nikon are hammering on the FZ door. They are nearly there with true replacements of the FZ50, but their forums are not so pleasant places to be. The snobby gear heads look down on the lowly innocent questions, and novices can receive harsh treatment at the hands of those battling for title of the sharpest or wittiest retort.

But.

We are still here. We might be starving of new gear to investigate or discuss, but we are still here. And around us the cameras approach in design those that we once cherished. Panasonic retains a good standing in camera production, but can do more for us. It can innovate but concentrates on the M4/3 at the moment. The DSLR world will soon decant off to be the equipment of the die hard enthusiast. And I wonder if with it the snobbery will vanish? It might be we don't need this forum any more. It might be that many other forums become populated with similar folk. It might be that this Panasonic forum loses its unique popularity.

:-|

Ah what a load of tosh. Merry Christmas everyone. I raise my glass and toast - The Panasonic Compact Camera Talk Forum; and all who sail in her. Hurrahhhh - hurrahhh - hurrahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Hic] [pass out]

GMACNEIL · Dec 17, 2013

Well, stop the presses- I just bought an FZ200. The Amazon deal was just too good to pass up. So now I'll have to work extra hard to champion the ZS series!

I had not thought about it, but I agree that something did change when the series changed from the "Travel Zoom" (TZ) series to the ZS series. In most regards the camera is improving, but the fewer megapixels and the lack of distortion at the wide angle (though it was 28mm vs the current 24mm) are features I miss.

As you and others have commented in this thread, the specific tool really isn't as important as the support for considered application of the tool in this forum. It is a nice place to spend some time...just about every day!

Cheers John!

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

kkardster said:
John Miles said:

You know I have to pin the FZ50 to ISO100 else the IQ plummets. I'd wager many an LX7 low light shot would benefit from keeping the ISO down and employing some old fashioned tactics from the film camera 100 ASA days; likely keeping still.

Click to expand...

...or swapping rolls of film and sacrificing a couple shots for later upon reload. We sure like to complain about increasing the ISO, but it's a lot easier than it used to be! We don't even have to push our film to get crappy low-light performance any more!

And then I tried slide film ...................... dear oh dear.

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

leeland48 said:
I agree John I can't stand poor people :-D

The funny went over my head here Lee, bit considered no reply impolite.

leeland48 said:
lee

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

Aberaeron said:
John Miles said:

In the early days of this Panasonic forum there developed a wonderful camaraderie over cameras that were fresh, innovative and breaking new ground in the camera world. These were the early FZ's.

In those days the people who bought these cameras were keen to talk and discuss their photography, but also almost uniquely possess no sense of camera snobbery or ill will toward others and their efforts in taking photographs.

The kit was great, but not in the scope of the gear heads and boasters. The kit was new, operating on a knife edge of performance; needing an intense exchange of discussion and samples to find all sorts of hidden corners of performance.

That very special environment, this Panasonic forum, persists to this day; but I sense that it is under threat. Panasonic has lost its edge in the camera world. It courts the attention of the gear heads and craves the gold from the lens change cameras. And when it produces great cameras for this forum, for some it stops developing them.

We are growing quiet here. The upgrades are diminishing and the designs less daring. Outside the scope of this forum camera designs are changing and evolving; gradually eating away at our population. Fuji and Nikon are hammering on the FZ door. They are nearly there with true replacements of the FZ50, but their forums are not so pleasant places to be. The snobby gear heads look down on the lowly innocent questions, and novices can receive harsh treatment at the hands of those battling for title of the sharpest or wittiest retort.

But.

We are still here. We might be starving of new gear to investigate or discuss, but we are still here. And around us the cameras approach in design those that we once cherished. Panasonic retains a good standing in camera production, but can do more for us. It can innovate but concentrates on the M4/3 at the moment. The DSLR world will soon decant off to be the equipment of the die hard enthusiast. And I wonder if with it the snobbery will vanish? It might be we don't need this forum any more. It might be that many other forums become populated with similar folk. It might be that this Panasonic forum loses its unique popularity.

:-|

Ah what a load of tosh. Merry Christmas everyone. I raise my glass and toast - The Panasonic Compact Camera Talk Forum; and all who sail in her. Hurrahhhh - hurrahhh - hurrahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Hic] [pass out]

Click to expand...

John Miles · Dec 17, 2013

Jerrich said:
I enjoy the cordiality here and plan to be around a good while. Back when i haunted the Fuji forum and the S100fs was their top dog (2008?), I saw members get banned for their caustic attitude and posts! As a fairly new Panny owner, I don't see any of that here. Merry Christmas to all. We're all in it together.

JR

Jack Brandt217 · Dec 18, 2013

Amen to that John.

Jack

Will the snobbery eventually go away?

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