Many people are in for a nasty surprise

It had occurred to me that, like many of the posters have pointed out, crappy shots can still preserve memory. That is true. You only need some vague imagery to remind you of what happened on a particular day. Seeing the people present at a dinner party can remind you a lot more of the conversation that may have took place. However, I would like to call this "memory refreshing".

Because there are different level of detail can be captured, there are different level of memory that can be preserved in a photo. A low resolution photos will only refresh your memory to an extend, but a high resolution photo with detail of food on the table, clear capture of people's face and their expression, cloth they were wearing, even decorations on the wall, can preserve a whole lot more.
 
I think the assumption that a 'better' photo would 'refresh' a memory better than a 'bad' photo is inherently flawed. If that were the case, then memory couldn't be triggered by non photographic souvenirs and other little gewgaws that people save. We might enjoy a 'better' photo more than a 'bad' one but I don't think the quality of the photo itself (beyond whatever the person in question considers minimally acceptable) has anything to do with it.
 
It had occurred to me that, like many of the posters have pointed out, crappy shots can still preserve memory. That is true. You only need some vague imagery to remind you of what happened on a particular day. Seeing the people present at a dinner party can remind you a lot more of the conversation that may have took place. However, I would like to call this "memory refreshing".

Because there are different level of detail can be captured, there are different level of memory that can be preserved in a photo. A low resolution photos will only refresh your memory to an extend, but a high resolution photo with detail of food on the table, clear capture of people's face and their expression, cloth they were wearing, even decorations on the wall, can preserve a whole lot more.
These shots aren't crappy to the people for whom they mattered enough to take them. This is what I still don't think you realize. These people wouldn't be using these to take pictures if they hadn't already deemed them sufficient quality wise. Phones have had cameras for a long time, before the smart phone revolution if you want to call it that. Cheap phones loaded with the cheapest bottom of the barrel cameras made were in lots of pockets before the smart phone came about. You didn't have a flood of people replacing a dedicated camera with those. Because they truly were junk and a novelty at best. The current gen smart phones are different, and it shows through the amount of people who have chosen (for their OWN needs) that the quality is sufficient.

If you take a picture at dinner with a good smart phone and can't tell what food was being eaten or what clothes people had on, it's not the cameras fault. Are there cases where a smart phone is worthless? Absolutely. But this can be said about any camera.

Ive asked here once already so I'll ask again: what is the line? What is the level of acceptable equipment that you deem sufficient for someone to take pictures with? What does one have to buy and use for you to not refer to their pictures as crappy?
 
Ive asked here once already so I'll ask again: what is the line? What is the level of acceptable equipment that you deem sufficient for someone to take pictures with? What does one have to buy and use for you to not refer to their pictures as crappy?
 
I think the assumption that a 'better' photo would 'refresh' a memory better than a 'bad' photo is inherently flawed. If that were the case, then memory couldn't be triggered by non photographic souvenirs and other little gewgaws that people save.
Not at all. My point is anything linked to the past even can trigger memory, but the level of memory it can preserve for you is different. souvenirs do not preserve memory - they trigger them. For that purpose, like you say, photos are redundnt to begin with. Yet we keep photos, because they preserve things that we may not be able to remember. For example, when you are 80 years old, would you and your grand children not want to see what you actually looked like in your 30s? That is what I was getting at. The better the image the more is preserved.
 
It had occurred to me that, like many of the posters have pointed out, crappy shots can still preserve memory. That is true. You only need some vague imagery to remind you of what happened on a particular day. Seeing the people present at a dinner party can remind you a lot more of the conversation that may have took place. However, I would like to call this "memory refreshing".

Because there are different level of detail can be captured, there are different level of memory that can be preserved in a photo. A low resolution photos will only refresh your memory to an extend, but a high resolution photo with detail of food on the table, clear capture of people's face and their expression, cloth they were wearing, even decorations on the wall, can preserve a whole lot more.
These shots aren't crappy to the people for whom they mattered enough to take them. This is what I still don't think you realize.
This is what you assert but which there is no basis for such assertion. You seemt o assume these people are somehow unintellegent that they cannot tell good IQ from bad or just plain dont care. That in my view is condescending. Did anyone in your family not realise the improved pictures from Standard definition TV to high definition when watching normal TV programs? do they not see the difference from DVD to bluray? Let me make it plain and simple for you. Everyone I know see and appreciate these difference. In fact, that was the reason why they bought DSLr and premium P&S over cheaper P&S in the first place.
These people wouldn't be using these to take pictures if they hadn't already deemed them sufficient quality wise.
That is the core issue here. I am saying they do not realise the quality they are really getting in these cellphone cameras. Are you sudden assuming they are all very intelligent and did all they home work and worked out cellphone images fit their need exactly?
Phones have had cameras for a long time, before the smart phone revolution if you want to call it that. Cheap phones loaded with the cheapest bottom of the barrel cameras made were in lots of pockets before the smart phone came about. You didn't have a flood of people replacing a dedicated camera with those. Because they truly were junk and a novelty at best. The current gen smart phones are different, and it shows through the amount of people who have chosen (for their OWN needs) that the quality is sufficient.
While there is some truth in what you said, you missed the much bigger reasons for the switch to cellphone cameras. The biggest reason is advent of instant sharing, the second is large leap in display quality. if you load a image taken in good light from your old 2mp camera onto your iphone 4~5s, you will be astonished how good it looks.
If you take a picture at dinner with a good smart phone and can't tell what food was being eaten or what clothes people had on, it's not the cameras fault.
The issue is not of fault. the issue is such pictures are taken, and that dinner is finished, not coming back.
Are there cases where a smart phone is worthless? Absolutely. But this can be said about any camera.
You problem, through out this whole thread, has been that you take things to the absurd extreme and purport them to have any merit.

The issue here is never about buying a camera that cane do it all. or that cellphone camera can do nothing right. So you either have a comprehension problem like DfPano said, or you just being unduly argumentative.

btw, let me address a point you made previously. I am not saying you are argumentative just because you dont agree with me. Plenty of people dont and we can settle for being different. Your problem is you are arguing against positions that I never took, then pretend you have won the argument by making the opposing position ridiculous and absurd.
Ive asked here once already so I'll ask again: what is the line? What is the level of acceptable equipment that you deem sufficient for someone to take pictures with?
Again, it all comes down to your inability to read. I am not asking these people to buy anything. I am saying they already have good cameras, which they bought for better photos. There is no line to be drawn and there is not such thing as what I think is acceptable.
What does one have to buy and use for you to not refer to their pictures as crappy?
Once more, you are just being argumentative and nasty.
 
People are taking a lot less photos with stand alone digital cameras, and a lot more with cellphone cameras. We knew all that already. Several of my family and friends have now abandoned their cameras and use smartphones for all their photography. the cameras left behind include DSLR, ultrazoom, compact P&S, premium P&S.

A nasty surprise awaits them. While these photos look vibrant and sharp on the tiny but high res screens, they look very flat and smeared on larger computer monitors, probably even worse on l;arge print.
Most people don't shoot large print. The photos shot from a phone are usually snapshots. I have portraits of great grand people that are photographs sitting on my tables in frames. My Samsung note 3 has a 13mp sensor and produces color instead of sepia, it is high resolution and sharp. It never degrades as digital and can be printed using chemical and paper or printer. I can also display them on a digital picture frame, laptop, facebook/web and they look great.

It is far superior to anything back in my great grandparents day yet those pictures are valuable.
I recently created and ordered several photo books, so I gathered some photos taken with iPhone4s and 5 from my family members, as well as DSLR photos I have taken over the past year, on a normal 24in monitor the difference is massive. on high quality A4 print, I can only image the difference will amplify.

Personally, I dont think photography is about seeing what now is, It is about seeing what now was, years from now.
I agree and my phone is better than anything that was back in my great grandparents day so no nasty suprise there.
Cellphone cameras are popular because instant sharing, and instant sharing is mostly about inducing envy. But for memory preservation, cellphone images are too inferior compared to what you can get with some very affordable cameras. Unfortunately most people have not realised this yet. By the time they do realise, many precious life experiences have past.

Your thoughts?
Years ago, I use to carry around in my wallet, small photos of my family. Now I have a note 3 with a 5.7inch display that destroys those old wallet photos in quality or in resolution and has a camera built into it 13mp that takes better images and displays them right there.

My thoughts are you have not taken a picture with the current 8to41mp phones and seen their quality.

The only envy I see is how well these phones perform compared to a dslr and the DSlr guys are insecure and feel they need to put down the cell phone in order to fell justified in owning a DSLR. In many cases phone pictures are more than good enough and they will only continue to get better.
 
A nasty surprise awaits them. While these photos look vibrant and sharp on the tiny but high res screens, they look very flat and smeared on larger computer monitors, probably even worse on l;arge print.
But your thought process is that of a photo enthusiast who uses a big computer screen and prints, even prints big. But the people taking photos with their iphone will soon not even have a real "computer" at home but survive by just phones and tablets. They will mainly be viewing and sharing photos on their phone. Tablets are there and their screens are no bigger than 10 inches or basically an 8x10 print. So there's no "nasty" future for them because they aren't printing photos or viewing them on a 27 inch computer screen because they have no need for a computer anymore. Their phone and tablet are much more portable and easy to use, simplifying their life!
 
At the end of the day they'll be kicking themselves for the money, time and mental anguish they wasted on their precious gear.

I print 8x8" prints from my iPhone 5 and they look great. No nasty surprises.

I'm looking for creative and interesting images, not pin-sharp clarity or out-and-out IQ. That junk's almost meaningless. What matters, artistically, is if the image works.
 
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It had occurred to me that, like many of the posters have pointed out, crappy shots can still preserve memory. That is true. You only need some vague imagery to remind you of what happened on a particular day. Seeing the people present at a dinner party can remind you a lot more of the conversation that may have took place. However, I would like to call this "memory refreshing".

Because there are different level of detail can be captured, there are different level of memory that can be preserved in a photo. A low resolution photos will only refresh your memory to an extend, but a high resolution photo with detail of food on the table, clear capture of people's face and their expression, cloth they were wearing, even decorations on the wall, can preserve a whole lot more.
These shots aren't crappy to the people for whom they mattered enough to take them. This is what I still don't think you realize.
This is what you assert but which there is no basis for such assertion. You seemt o assume these people are somehow unintellegent that they cannot tell good IQ from bad or just plain dont care. That in my view is condescending. Did anyone in your family not realise the improved pictures from Standard definition TV to high definition when watching normal TV programs? do they not see the difference from DVD to bluray? Let me make it plain and simple for you. Everyone I know see and appreciate these difference. In fact, that was the reason why they bought DSLr and premium P&S over cheaper P&S in the first place.
I am not the one being condescending and saying that other people are going to regret a decision THEY made because it doesnt mesh with MY wants and priorities.

Yeah I watch channels in HD. But I wasn't sitting around years ago nor now thinking how awful regular tv looks. I've already covered this. There will be cameras made which blow away whatever anyone is using today. But it won't change those images made today. In any way. At all.
These people wouldn't be using these to take pictures if they hadn't already deemed them sufficient quality wise.
That is the core issue here. I am saying they do not realise the quality they are really getting in these cellphone cameras. Are you sudden assuming they are all very intelligent and did all they home work and worked out cellphone images fit their need exactly?
Youre contradicting yourself badly here. First: I'm accusing someone of being unintelligent and saying they can't tell good images from bad (your words, most definitely not mine). Now you yourself are the one saying they don't realize the quality of what they are using.

Well which is it? Do they know or don't they?? My assertion is and has been throughout this entire thread is that they do. They have made a decision that the quality they see with their own eyes is sufficient for the trade of convience they gain. They don't need me defending the decision and they don't need you or anyone else saying the pictures are crap and theyre going to regret using it. You're the one judging that decision and saying they will regret it.
Phones have had cameras for a long time, before the smart phone revolution if you want to call it that. Cheap phones loaded with the cheapest bottom of the barrel cameras made were in lots of pockets before the smart phone came about. You didn't have a flood of people replacing a dedicated camera with those. Because they truly were junk and a novelty at best. The current gen smart phones are different, and it shows through the amount of people who have chosen (for their OWN needs) that the quality is sufficient.
While there is some truth in what you said, you missed the much bigger reasons for the switch to cellphone cameras. The biggest reason is advent of instant sharing, the second is large leap in display quality. if you load a image taken in good light from your old 2mp camera onto your iphone 4~5s, you will be astonished how good it looks.
Im sure you're right about sharing having a big draw to using a phone. But plenty of cameras have wifi and there are cheap wifi cards that work well in a standalone camera for that purpose. But I don't see this unseating the smartphone as a compact camera replacement. The display quality argument, I don't buy. A crap picture looks worse on a better screen (come to think of it isn't that the entire point of your original post?)
If you take a picture at dinner with a good smart phone and can't tell what food was being eaten or what clothes people had on, it's not the cameras fault.
The issue is not of fault. the issue is such pictures are taken, and that dinner is finished, not coming back.
Im not getting sentimental with you. My original point here is still relevent.
Are there cases where a smart phone is worthless? Absolutely. But this can be said about any camera.
You problem, through out this whole thread, has been that you take things to the absurd extreme and purport them to have any merit.

The issue here is never about buying a camera that cane do it all. or that cellphone camera can do nothing right. So you either have a comprehension problem like DfPano said, or you just being unduly argumentative.

btw, let me address a point you made previously. I am not saying you are argumentative just because you dont agree with me. Plenty of people dont and we can settle for being different. Your problem is you are arguing against positions that I never took, then pretend you have won the argument by making the opposing position ridiculous and absurd.
Again. I'm argumentative to you because I disagree with you. You generalized in your original post and now you don't like it when I do it. Which is the reason I did. I'm not arguing against anything that you didn't say. You said people will regret and they have a nasty surprise coming. Strictly because they don't use a camera that you deem sufficient. Whether they own it or not is irrelevant. I own plenty of crap I don't use and own other stuff that is technically inferior to other things and use them often. You're trying to act now like you didn't take this condescending position of your friends and family but you did.

Im not pretending I've won anything. There is nothing to win, I'm not going to agree with your view of other peoples decisions and you're not going to agree with me that its narrow minded.
Ive asked here once already so I'll ask again: what is the line? What is the level of acceptable equipment that you deem sufficient for someone to take pictures with?
Again, it all comes down to your inability to read. I am not asking these people to buy anything. I am saying they already have good cameras, which they bought for better photos. There is no line to be drawn and there is not such thing as what I think is acceptable.
I read remarkably well thanks. I am however starting to wonder about you. Have you read what you posted? Now saying there isn't anything you deem acceptable?? Well there is definitely something you deem unacceptable or else you wouldn't have posted what you did as that is the entire gist of it. So if you know what is unacceptable, just look at what isn't on that list and you'll know what you find is acceptable. There is a line in your mind, because you've already placed a camera in a phone below it.
What does one have to buy and use for you to not refer to their pictures as crappy?
Once more, you are just being argumentative and nasty.
I'm being nasty? You call peoples picture crappy because they weren't taken with a camera you deem worthy but I am the nasty one? As I said above you won't even admit to having an opinion about what equipment you deem acceptable after starting a thread based on your having such opinions.
 
I got an A4 print done and framed for my Grandmother recently. It was one of a series of images of her son (my uncle) and his girlfriend at a restaurant. And out of that series of shots, she chose a horribly composed out-of-focus capture as her favourite. I tried to talk her into getting one of the much sharper almost identical shots framed instead, but she wouldn't have it. Her favourite was her favourite. It reminded me that for most people, photography is primarily about eliciting emotional response. It's an extension (or manifestation) of our pack social mentality. And really, you need hardly any IQ at all to achieve the desired effect.
A photo should elicit emotional response. The difference is that most photos elicit an emotional response in a very small number of people , maybe only in the photographer. A"good" photo elicits an emotional response in most people who see it.
I guess you've never seen poorly composed, poorly lit and slightly (or sometimes even significantly) OOF shots of a new-born baby passed around a living room full of women before.

You seem to be talking about the eliciting of emotional response due to artistic merit, whereas I am talking about the eliciting of emotional response due to the triggering of social instincts, or whatever you want to call the phenomenon.

I'm a big fan of artistic merit myself, as inherently subjective as it is. I'm also a big fan of technical expertise and skilful execution. But I've also come to realize that many people are all but oblivious to it, and even if you can get them to appreciate it for a second or two, they go straight back to loving their technically and artistically deficient happy snaps. And there's clearly plenty to love from their perspective.
 
Just a hunch, im guessing the grandmother doesn't know much about photography. It seems there is a direct correlation between photographic knowledge and IQ standards.
She doesn't understand aspect ratios either. Nor do a lot of people. I find it rather perplexing. If I see a presentation designed for a 4:3 screen stretched out to fill a 16:10 LCD, it bothers me instantly, and I'd say I'm far from alone around here. But in spite of my efforts to explain to my Grandmother why she should be watching "As Time Goes By" in 4:3, and even demonstrating the difference, she just prefers everyone to look fat. And it's not like her TV is small. It's rather big, and she sits pretty close to it.

This limited cognizance of such mismatches between reproduction and reality seems common, the point being that nobody seems to care no matter how much you think they should. So you've just got to let it go ;)
 
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Just a hunch, im guessing the grandmother doesn't know much about photography. It seems there is a direct correlation between photographic knowledge and IQ standards.
She doesn't understand aspect ratios either. Nor do a lot of people. I find it rather perplexing.
I was just thinking about this earlier. I read some post in some thread here where a person was saying the reason MFT sensors seem so much smaller, and indeed the reason they are able to use lenses that are good portion smaller is because of their ratio. But this throws off people who don't pay attention to the hidden details.

What does this mean? The larger sensors, FF and APSC, they are much wider, but they still use lenses that offer a circular light path. In otherwords, they waste more of the light around the top and bottom of the sensor than MFT does, bc MFT is more symmetrical, like a circle. This allows the MFT lenses to shrink to a greater degree than the sensor does. The best scenario would be a circular sensor, which i doubt we will ever see, follwed by a 1:1 sensor (MF). MFT is, as far as i know, closer to 1:1 than anything besides MF. FWIW.
 
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The issue is as he mentions that some former users of higher end cameras have abandoned them for camera phones. I certainly think its questionable whether these people actually realise how much quality there giving up.
A point I made in another thread was whether a high end compact camera or a DSLR, a camera for many who owned them was more a result of the family obligation and to some degree a necessary evil, to have a "good" camera whether for a wedding, a new baby, a trip of a lifetime, or whatever. They bought those camera thinking they would have get better pictures. But most still got snap shots but with better quality. Where convenience has driven in large part all human evolution, now the majority of picture taking people can enjoy convenience over quality, which really most would rather have. Thus their cameras now live in the darkness of their closets and most never think of buying another to replace it.
 
At the end of the day they'll be kicking themselves for the money, time and mental anguish they wasted on their precious gear.

I print 8x8" prints from my iPhone 5 and they look great. No nasty surprises.

I'm looking for creative and interesting images, not pin-sharp clarity or out-and-out IQ. That junk's almost meaningless. What matters, artistically, is if the image works.
 
Today, more pictures are taken every day than the first 80 years of photography. Cellphone iq will continue to improve, and we will keep changing phones every 1.5 - 2 years.

The question is, are we bringing our digital luggage along? We save pics on computers, but then again, we change them every few years.

Are we certain that our external drive will not fail in 20 years? Will the cloud be there in 25 years?

10 years ago there were digital cameras, I do not have now many of the Photos taken then because I didn't print them.

so, You can have a crappy phone, or a 4638.82 megapixel dslr, if You don't print, the result will be the same.

For memory preservation, we should be pixel peeping in the printers forum.

cheers!
The notion that digital files are intrinsically more fragile and less likely to be available in the future is just not reality.
Tell that to Hollywood and major law firms. Hollywood movies, shot 100% digitally, are all archived on photographic film, not hard drives. Law firms archive their records on paper, not hard drives.
I have but a single negative/slide per picture of my film images. I have many copies of my digital files. Some live in my home, some my office, some in the cloud.

If somethings happens to my film it is simply gone. If my house burns down I still have my digital portfolio.
Hard drives fail fare more often than homes burn to the ground.
If your digital work is more frsagile then your film work than you are grossly mismanaging your obligations to your work.
Nope. It's intrinsic to digital media. They degrade without any input from the user, just by aging. Photographic film degrades too, but in a far more understood way since we have 100 years of data on the process.


I have professionally bought music CD's that are dead after less than 20 years. Unreadable due to bit rot. Stored indoors, in a case that keeps them in the dark. No matter, the data degraded.
Incidently - I have successfully migrated my digital files (all kinds) over many computers/drives for over 15 years and there is no file that I cannot open and work with today.
Try 40 years. Will your programs and files run then? The RAW converter for my Fujifilm S5 Pro, a camera only 5 years old, no longer runs on any Macintosh computer made today. I cannot upgrade my OS past 10.6.8. If I do, then I cannot use the RAW converter for this camera (the best one for these files by far).
 
At the end of the day they'll be kicking themselves for the money, time and mental anguish they wasted on their precious gear.
I bought good gear now almost 10 years ago, and I've been grateful for doing so every day since.
I print 8x8" prints from my iPhone 5 and they look great. No nasty surprises.
I recently went on a family trip. I took about 7,000 shots, and just picked my favorite 1,100 from them. You know how many of those favorites could have been taken with my phone or an iPhone? About two. I just gave my mom a gift of a 16x20 print of a portrait taken of my kids after sunset at ISO 800.

--
Lee Jay
 
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I had eaxctly the opposite experience....

I had a bridge camera with a 1/1.7 sensor. Took it to Paris, made lots of shots, some in dark spaces in marginal light. When I pixel peeped I was dissapointed.

But because it was a trip of a lifetime, I decided to make a photobook of the images. I did a little PP on the shots, but no Photoshop, no noise ninja.

When I got back the book I was very pleasantly surprised. Shots that looked marginal on the screen looked great on paper.
 
I recently created and ordered several photo books, so I gathered some photos taken with iPhone4s and 5 from my family members, as well as DSLR photos I have taken over the past year, on a normal 24in monitor the difference is massive. on high quality A4 print, I can only image the difference will amplify.
I got an A4 print done and framed for my Grandmother recently. It was one of a series of images of her son (my uncle) and his girlfriend at a restaurant. And out of that series of shots, she chose a horribly composed out-of-focus capture as her favourite. I tried to talk her into getting one of the much sharper almost identical shots framed instead, but she wouldn't have it. Her favourite was her favourite. It reminded me that for most people, photography is primarily about eliciting emotional response. It's an extension (or manifestation) of our pack social mentality. And really, you need hardly any IQ at all to achieve the desired effect.
Take some time to study the history of photography (if you have not done so). What you will probably discover that many of the classic historical images don't measure up to the standards of IQ commonly sought after by people who argue about such things here. Photography has always been about telling a story and eliciting an emotional response -- the most successful images have always achieved these goals. IQ may be part of that but it is almost never the only part and... IQ tends to have a different meaning to everyone who uses the term and it probably varies depending on what image they are looking at.
 

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