Skin tones D4 vs D6xx

I can't comment on the D600/10 but I had a D4. SOOC I prefer the skin tones from the older cameras (D700/D3s). D4 skin tones are more neutral and possibly more accurate, but I find the skin tones from the older cameras much more pleasing, which I think is what you're talking about.

Doesn't really help your decision making unless you wanted to try the older cameras. And I absolutely agree that it's not as simple as a few tweaks in post to get skin tones you really like. I also shoot a 5D MK3 and much prefer the sooc skin tones compared to anything Nikon.
 
Stacey, I share your pain on that color cruzade.

When it comes to color, I think as long as the grass is green and sky is blue (no matter what shade of green or blue is that), or we have sliders in Lightroom, people won't care that much.

I'm fine if most don't care, but to say all cameras have the same color response, and all it takes is a bit of color tweaking in post, is misleading to say the least.

I've had many digital cameras, from Sony A100 to a Leaf Aptus digital back, and I can easily rank them worst to best in color response.

Color response is never the same across brands, camera models or even sensor types.

For example:

Every CMOS camera I've ever shot with has a strong bias towards red / magenta rendering.

Every CCD camera has a cooler bias (much less red, punchier blues and greens).

Sensors are monochromatic, but I'm sure their design have some influence on how deep each color channel is registered.

BTW, I fully agree with you, the D200 is one of the best ever in that skin tone field.
 
If you shoot RAW it really does not matter. With weddings and second shooters i would have to match images from 4 different cameras and have the color be uniform. It was not that big a deal when using RAW image files.
I agree. There is really NO reason not to shoot *.NEF.
How about having to post process 200 files from a days shoot?

So I should have to individually color balance each shot (due to different lighting) rather than look for a camera model that does nice OOC jpegs? O.o
 
You didn't ask whether you should shoot raw, did you? I always shoot raw. But cameras have a signature,
I always shoot RAW+JPEG but when doing these big events where I have 200+ images to deliver, sometimes in a short period of time, I -hope- I can nail the jpegs to avoid spending hours of PP. I used to use my E1 and the OOC jpegs were almost always good.

I switched to nikon and did this same event with my D7000 and the skin tones were bad, ended up having to individually adjust each shot from RAW. Even in the same light, different skin types needed a different WB to "look good", which then shifted the other scene colors. Maybe they were "accurate" skin tones, but orange skin isn't attractive! I would get a light skin tone looking good and using this WB on a dark skinned person in the same light, their skin was too blue. ARG!

So I asked around and the D200 was suggested, that solved my problem and made daylight event shooting much easier. I still use the D7000 for low light shooting but if the light is good, I will always grab the D200.

All I was trying to find out was "Do any of the FX models -out of camera- do skin tones better/more reliably" and 90% of the responses are explaining I should shoot raw and adjust each shot, there is NO reason to not shoot raw etc.. *sigh*

It does sound like one person suggested the D700, might look more into that.
 
I have been using the technique outlined in the following link with my D700 & D800. It yields the best results for skin tones of any other method that I've tried. If you have a color checker target and either Lightroom or ACR, give this a try before purchasing another camera:

http://www.hansvaneijsden.com/colorchecker-perfect-skin-colors/

The Adobe DNG profile editor is a free download:

Mac: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5493

PC: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5494
 
You didn't ask whether you should shoot raw, did you? I always shoot raw. But cameras have a signature,
I always shoot RAW+JPEG but when doing these big events where I have 200+ images to deliver, sometimes in a short period of time, I -hope- I can nail the jpegs to avoid spending hours of PP.

All I was trying to find out was "Do any of the FX models -out of camera- do skin tones better/more reliably" and 90% of the responses are explaining I should shoot raw and adjust each shot, there is NO reason to not shoot raw etc.. *sigh*
I can understand why you would want to get pleasing pictures with a minimum of work

but you are asking people to make a subjective assessment of colors and that would match yours

based on you preference for the Olympus colors (and I might add I think people get used to a camera) the d200 does sound like something worth exploring for you

and there are so many variables, here, in how we see, and what we view pictures on screens and print

now knowing what goes into making a raw file become a JPEG, I personally feel about any camera can be made to look like another color wise, Given the tools in Lightroom it should be possible to do this relatively easily in a batch process

Perhaps you could post a picture or two with the orange skin you referred to and a similar shot from your em-1?
 
Perhaps you could post a picture or two with the orange skin you referred to and a similar shot from your em-1?
Pics or it didn't happen.

Once a year I shoot school photos on the school of my children and I used both a D80 (CCD sensor, same as D200) and a D300 (CMOS sensor) in the past. These images are all shot with a state-of-the-art studio flash system (Broncolor) and are all taken under the exact same lighting conditions with the exact same camera settings. If I can find the time I could select a number of equivalent shots of various skin tones with both cameras and show 'unpersonilized' crops of skin.

As I used different cameras in different years and the lighting setup changed over the years as well I can't show real 1:1 comparisons but the 'light quality' (color) is the same and I can show the skin of a lot of different people per year.

--
Philip
 
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Stacey

You only need to use the colorchecker passport once to calibrate the camera and lens. If your lenses have similar color characteristics, then you only need to do this once for all of your lenses, and you're done. A single illuminant profile in sunlight will take care of most of the calibration that you need. If you setup a dual-illuminant profile, then you'll have a wide range calibration that will be good for multiple lighting conditions. This requires you to shoot RAW and import with Lightroom or ACR. After that you apply normal white balance, if you want to adjust from the camera's white balance setting.

That's it. Set up the profile once and then import all RAW files with that profile.

But, if you're working with OOC jpgs, then you're right. All that matters is what the camera delivers, and what WB setting you use.
 
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You didn't ask whether you should shoot raw, did you? I always shoot raw. But cameras have a signature,
I always shoot RAW+JPEG but when doing these big events where I have 200+ images to deliver, sometimes in a short period of time, I -hope- I can nail the jpegs to avoid spending hours of PP.

All I was trying to find out was "Do any of the FX models -out of camera- do skin tones better/more reliably" and 90% of the responses are explaining I should shoot raw and adjust each shot, there is NO reason to not shoot raw etc.. *sigh*
I can understand why you would want to get pleasing pictures with a minimum of work

but you are asking people to make a subjective assessment of colors and that would match yours

based on you preference for the Olympus colors (and I might add I think people get used to a camera) the d200 does sound like something worth exploring for you

and there are so many variables, here, in how we see, and what we view pictures on screens and print
Thanks for this and you're right, it's not likely I will get an answer to this. I know what I am talking about is subjective and was looking for people who have used both a D600 and a D4 to get their opinion of how the output from each looks. Instead I got people explaining how they process RAW files, which wasn't my question.

I'm not sure if I made this clear, I did buy a D200 and found it (for me) much easier to get "pleasing" skin tones from, even when using raw files from both D7000 and D200. When using OOC jpegs, the D200 hands down has nicer skin tones and no amount of playing with the in camera picture controls makes the D7000 consistently look like D200 files. I can get the D7000 to look the same in one color temp light, if the color temp of the light changes (and WB adjusted accordingly), this setting then doesn't work. My opinion is the D7000 is more sensitive to reds than the D200 and this channel is the one that causes this problem. Whatever it is, I find for portraits the D200 easier to use.
now knowing what goes into making a raw file become a JPEG, I personally feel about any camera can be made to look like another color wise, Given the tools in Lightroom it should be possible to do this relatively easily in a batch process
The problem with batch processing RAW files is these shots are in various light temps. Some are in the shade, some are in the sun, some a cloud moves over etc so there is no one WB that would work for all of them hence no batch WB setting would work.

When I am shooting under controlled conditions, like studio lighting, it is simple to get repeatable results and it's not hard to get the OOC jpegs from both to match. The problem arises when the light temp changes.

The other thing I don't buy is this idea that "all RAW files are the same" mentality. If you process a D200 file with the EXACT same settings as you process a D7000 (in ACR or NX2), they don't look the same.

Anyway, I'm going to drop out of this thread before some of the people here get any more hostile than they already have, thanks for your response.
 
My opinion is the D7000 is more sensitive to reds than the D200 and this channel is the one that causes this problem. Whatever it is, I find for portraits the D200 easier to use.
yes, I think red is a problematic color

I believe in part the sensors are capturing more of the color space than can be displayed,

for example try adobe RGB or adobe wide or something really wide, prophoto

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/prophoto-rgb.shtml

you can use this as the default color space in NX2 and I think you will find your reds don't look so red, of course what to do with it so other people can see it, is another issue.....
now knowing what goes into making a raw file become a JPEG, I personally feel about any camera can be made to look like another color wise, Given the tools in Lightroom it should be possible to do this relatively easily in a batch process


The other thing I don't buy is this idea that "all RAW files are the same" mentality. If you process a D200 file with the EXACT same settings as you process a D7000 (in ACR or NX2), they don't look the same.
I here what you say, and you are right, not all raw files are the same, but there is a lot done to make raw file 'viewable' - a lot - so my opinion that the end result can be very close, even if the starting point (raw) is not as close


Anyway, I'm going to drop out of this thread before some of the people here get any more hostile than they already have, thanks for your response.
you are welcome and I think you just might have to look at some pictures from the other Nikon cameras yourself.

although I think I am having less issues with red at least on my D800 vice the D300, or maybe I am just used to it ;)



good luck
 
I'm planning to get a FX camera later this year. Either a D610 or a DF. While shooting DX I found it much easier for me to get nice skin tones from an older D200 than from my D7000. I'm curious if the D600 is more like how a D7000 renders color and is the D4 sensor "known" for good skin tones? Or are they close to the same.

Obviously you can get decent skin tones from any of these but I do believe some sensor/rendering engines deal with skin tones better out of the camera. If the D4/DF sensor is known for better skin tones, that would probably influence the D610/DF choice for me. TIA
 
I'm planning to get a FX camera later this year. Either a D610 or a DF. While shooting DX I found it much easier for me to get nice skin tones from an older D200 than from my D7000. I'm curious if the D600 is more like how a D7000 renders color and is the D4 sensor "known" for good skin tones? Or are they close to the same.

Obviously you can get decent skin tones from any of these but I do believe some sensor/rendering engines deal with skin tones better out of the camera. If the D4/DF sensor is known for better skin tones, that would probably influence the D610/DF choice for me. TIA

--
Stacey
Here's a hunch: you're gonna hate both.

The big problem, here, is in how modern cameras (or you) process the massive dynamic range they collect down to the comparatively small dynamic range a print or your computer monitor can actually display.

Older cameras (or modern Canon cameras--oooo, dig!) deliver "better" out-of-camera tones because they aren't trying to jam 14.5 stops of information into the 8 or 9 your screen can show you.

Punchy, crisp, engaging photographs and portraits often end up having a pretty steep "S" - shaped contrast curve: shouldered blacks and whites if you want to retain detail, with a (very) steep mid-tone slope. Nikons of the D200-era (both CCD and CMOS) were only collecting 10-11 stops to begin with, and the "Gen 1" JPEG processing started with a naturally steep "S" curve. Goofy DR compression schemes like ADL didn't exist. So it's a recipe for great, punchy tone--provided you hit the exposure you want.

Same deal with Canons of the era. Head on over to the Canon forums and you'll find thread-after-thread-after-thread about how much more crisp and satisfying the original 5D's out-of-camera color was than the 5DII or 5DIII. Why? Relatively low dynamic range + steep native JPEG contrast curve.

These days, Nikon sensors can collect 14.5 stops or so, and the native JPEG processing defaults are all designed to show it off--they aren't willing to "scrub" highlights and shadows with a steep curve. Quite to the contrary: turn on ADL, leave contrast at its default, and the tone curve you're getting is actually a shallowed-mid range. It's a recipe for horribly flat color and *terrible* skin tone, but it does visibly jam 14.5 stops of tonal information into 8, so all the gadgeteers out there can geek out about "retained" shadow and highlight detail.

Of course, I shouldn't sell the modern sensors short. If you missed your intended exposure, those extra stops of DR can come in very handy. Obviously, a D200 RAW file (or a 5DIII RAW--oooo, feel the burn, Canon!) just can't be pushed around quite like a D800 file can be.

In the end, it doesn't really matter: you can always get in there with any camera and set the curve you want. If Nikon's defaults won't scrub detail for tone, you can always do it yourself--but with the modern cameras, you do actually have to do it; with the older cameras, it was the default behavior.

So don't lament CCD vs CMOS or any other pointlessness. If you want your new camera to behave like an older camera, use the older camera's tricks: push your tone curve's mid slope and be willing to trade visible detail at the edges for crisp tones in the 8-9 stops your prints or your monitor can actually show you.
Or just get one one of the older cameras and save yourself the hassle :)
 
I'm planning to get a FX camera later this year. Either a D610 or a DF. While shooting DX I found it much easier for me to get nice skin tones from an older D200 than from my D7000. I'm curious if the D600 is more like how a D7000 renders color and is the D4 sensor "known" for good skin tones? Or are they close to the same.

Obviously you can get decent skin tones from any of these but I do believe some sensor/rendering engines deal with skin tones better out of the camera. If the D4/DF sensor is known for better skin tones, that would probably influence the D610/DF choice for me. TIA
 
So don't lament CCD vs CMOS or any other pointlessness.
I'm not hung up on ccd/cmos thing and thanks for the post. So where does the D700 fit in the scheme of things?

-
Stacey
 
So don't lament CCD vs CMOS or any other pointlessness.
I'm not hung up on ccd/cmos thing and thanks for the post. So where does the D700 fit in the scheme of things?

-
Stacey
Assuming we're talking low / base ISOs, the D700's color / tonal response is difficult to distinguish from the D7000's--the only difference I note between them (again, low / base ISO) is the D7000's very slightly amplified red channel response.

So, unfortunately, I think you'd see the same default / out-of-box problem.

For crisp out-of-camera portrait tone in natural / ambient light with a full-frame format, I'd argue the original 12-megapixel Canon 5D is still the camera to beat, at least if you're shooting below ISO 1600. Of course it'd mean putting up the 5D's other shortcomings (tops on that list: primitive AF, slow flash sync, and a lousy rear LCD), but it'd be pretty inexpensive to try--$650 at most for "Like New Minus" from KEH, maybe $500 - $550 on ebay. Add another $100 for Canon's plastic-but-nice 50mm f/1.8 EF lens, and you're ready to rock.

Everyone sees it differently, but, honestly, if I were aiming for the best possible out-of-camera tone from a contemporary camera, I would bypass full frame DSLRs and head straight for Olympus or Fujifilm "X-Trans" mirrorless. (Maybe the Olympus EM-1 / EM-5, or the Fuji X-Pro1 or X-E2.) Sure, there are many disadvantages associated with EVFs, but whatever else might be said about them, they sure do make it a piece of cake to nail the exact exposure, white balance, and tonal response / curve you want. The what-you-see-is-what-you-get approach is hard to ignore if you're a JPEG shooter. Add to that the wide consensus that both Olympus and Fuji produce highly appealing portrait JPEGs (meaning your clients are likely to agree, too) and I'd say it's worth a look.
 
So don't lament CCD vs CMOS or any other pointlessness.
I'm not hung up on ccd/cmos thing and thanks for the post. So where does the D700 fit in the scheme of things?

-
Stacey
Assuming we're talking low / base ISOs, the D700's color / tonal response is difficult to distinguish from the D7000's--the only difference I note between them (again, low / base ISO) is the D7000's very slightly amplified red channel response.

So, unfortunately, I think you'd see the same default / out-of-box problem.
I'm wondering if you're processing raw files from both cameras using Adobe ACR or similar.

I use CNX2 and I see very major differences between D700 and D7000, frankly I don't see much in common at all.
 
So don't lament CCD vs CMOS or any other pointlessness.
I'm not hung up on ccd/cmos thing and thanks for the post. So where does the D700 fit in the scheme of things?

-
Stacey
Assuming we're talking low / base ISOs, the D700's color / tonal response is difficult to distinguish from the D7000's--the only difference I note between them (again, low / base ISO) is the D7000's very slightly amplified red channel response.

So, unfortunately, I think you'd see the same default / out-of-box problem.
I'm wondering if you're processing raw files from both cameras using Adobe ACR or similar.

I use CNX2 and I see very major differences between D700 and D7000, frankly I don't see much in common at all.
I use both CNX2 and Lightroom / ACR, in both Adobe Standard as well as Nikon color profiles. However, since we can't really discuss "native" sensor and color characteristics in the same breath that we talk about Adobe's RAW interpretations, my observation (that the D700 and D7000 share strikingly similar color and tonal characteristics at base ISOs) is based on what I see working with CNX2.

But eh, I'm probably color blind. One in ten men, and I haven't been to the optometrist in a few years . . . . And, in any case, there's no diagnosis for the bad taste I might be suffering. It all adds up to pretty justified skepticism.

So there's your cue, Yray (not that you need one) to give Stacey your more specific take on how you think the D700's RAW characteristics differ from those with which she's familiar and why or why not those differences would make it more or less appropriate for her intended purpose.

(Although, parenthetically: since we're now talking about different RAW converters, I do believe Adobe tools make it easier to see and to experiment with the implications of my earlier point, here--namely, that contemporary Nikon processing defaults mash the 14.5 stops of data sensors collect into the 8 or 9 you can display with a generally hamfisted, low-contrast approach.)
 
So don't lament CCD vs CMOS or any other pointlessness.
I'm not hung up on ccd/cmos thing and thanks for the post. So where does the D700 fit in the scheme of things?

-
Stacey
Assuming we're talking low / base ISOs, the D700's color / tonal response is difficult to distinguish from the D7000's--the only difference I note between them (again, low / base ISO) is the D7000's very slightly amplified red channel response.

So, unfortunately, I think you'd see the same default / out-of-box problem.
I'm wondering if you're processing raw files from both cameras using Adobe ACR or similar.

I use CNX2 and I see very major differences between D700 and D7000, frankly I don't see much in common at all.
I use both CNX2 and Lightroom / ACR, in both Adobe Standard as well as Nikon color profiles. However, since we can't really discuss "native" sensor and color characteristics in the same breath that we talk about Adobe's RAW interpretations, my observation (that the D700 and D7000 share strikingly similar color and tonal characteristics at base ISOs) is based on what I see working with CNX2.

But eh, I'm probably color blind. One in ten men, and I haven't been to the optometrist in a few years . . . . And, in any case, there's no diagnosis for the bad taste I might be suffering. It all adds up to pretty justified skepticism.
Sorry, made a mistake again, commented on the wrong topic.

So there's your cue, Yray (not that you need one) to give Stacey your more specific take on how you think the D700's RAW characteristics differ from those with which she's familiar and why or why not those differences would make it more or less appropriate for her intended purpose.

(Although, parenthetically: since we're now talking about different RAW converters, I do believe Adobe tools make it easier to see and to experiment with the implications of my earlier point, here--namely, that contemporary Nikon processing defaults mash the 14.5 stops of data sensors collect into the 8 or 9 you can display with a generally hamfisted, low-contrast approach.)
Other points you made make perfect (or a t least very good) sense to me.
 
The big problem, here, is in how modern cameras (or you) process the massive dynamic range they collect down to the comparatively small dynamic range a print or your computer monitor can actually display.

...In the end, it doesn't really matter: you can always get in there with any camera and set the curve you want. If Nikon's defaults won't scrub detail for tone, you can always do it yourself...
OK. Sounds plausible. Can you help us dumb JPEG shooters figure out how to actually set the camera to accomplish this.

Should I create a custom Picture Control? and somehow tweak it around? Turn off ADL? More specifics would be helpful for those of us at the back of the class... Thanks!
 
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nt
 

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