Df size comparision vs OMD and Sony A7

It's not just the body weight, but the lens weight and size. Case in point is the 14-150 f/4-5.6 superzoom I bought with the EM-1. The full frame equivalent for Nikon would be the 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6 ED VR. It weighs 28.2 ounces (800g). The 14-150 u4/3rds lens from Olympus weighs 9.7 ounces (260g.)
To me the smaller formats like m43 is somewhat like using a superzoom lens. Convinient, but does nothing excellent. Soon you get tired of that. Personally I rather have superb performance in the range I use most - 24, 28, 35, 50, 85 - than have a huge range, but with less good results.

In focal lengths 24-85, there are many compact options for a FF Nikon, including AI/AIS lenses.

Similarly, the Nikkor 24-70 f/2.8, which is my go-to lens on the D600, weighs nearly 2 pounds (31.7oz.) The Olympus 12-40 f/2.8 I have on order weights 13.7 ounces.

There have been efforts to shrink full frame lenses, but there's only so much you can do, given the physics of the situation. Fast, full frame zooms are hefty beasts. Lenses designed for APS-C sized sensors are somewhat lighter. The Nikon 18-200 f/3.5-5.6 weights 19.8 ounces - less than the 28 ounces of the 28-300mm full frame equivalent, but still double the weight of the nearest Olympus equivalent.

Yes, I'm glossing over issues like differences in depth of field, but shallow DoF is only one aspect of photography.
 
Yeah the Nikon is a man sized camera, the others are sized for boys.

Seriously, it's crazy to make things as small as possible, they did that with phones then realised that in order to maintain their functionality they had to be up to a certain size!

Form should always follow function in my view.
 
Yes, I'm glossing over issues like differences in depth of field, but shallow DoF is only one aspect of photography.
Yes, but at the moment, it is not only shallow DOF. Hi-iso IQ, AF tracking capabilities.

Mirrorless will come of age, one day for professional work. Not yet!
 
For a camera to be used hand-held, running-and-shooting, a bit of heft can help steady one's hold, and the same is true of a hand-filling grip. The DF may win the heft race, but the E-M1 may have a grip that fills the hand a bit better fore-and-aft. I will know when I can handle each camera.

Some favored Nikkors will keep me from abandoning Nikon, but already being a dual-platform Canon-Nikon shooter, I am open-minded about other brands.
 
Yes, I'm glossing over issues like differences in depth of field, but shallow DoF is only one aspect of photography.
Yes, but at the moment, it is not only shallow DOF. Hi-iso IQ, AF tracking capabilities.

Mirrorless will come of age, one day for professional work. Not yet!

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joeyv
One of the greatest advantage of mirrorless (especially MFT) that is very often overlooked is AF accuracy. I'm not talking about tracking, but single shot accuracy.

AF is always extremely accurate, miles and heaps more accurate than PDAF as it works on the final image. Micro adjustments are a thing of the past and it's very liberating to be able to just shoot without always checking whether the AF was OK or not. It just always is :-)

--
Florent
http://capturedbyflo.com
http://capturedbyflo.blogspot.com
My 85/1.4 focuses perfectly accurately using PDAF wide open, and it's a Sigma. No issues with my Nikon 35/1.4 either. How do those m4/3 17/0.7 and 42/0.7 lenses do? Oh, right....
For PDAF accuracy to be perfect, the focus sensor must be perfectly aligned to the image sensor and lenses have to be perfectly calibrated, which is rarely fully the case.

Why do you think manufacturers provide lens micro-adjustments? It's to overcome these inaccuracies. The technology requires extremely accurate and precise calibration to offer perfect focus. The higher the resolution (and pixel density), the more sensitive it is to any misalignment. It's just how the technology works. Whether you accept it or not doesn't change the fact. It's simply outdated.

I used to own a D800 which was a fantastic camera. However, getting perfect AF for all of my lenses was a nightmare. I used the Reikan FoCal software to calibrate all of my lenses. Guess what? My 70-200 required -2 at 70mm and +8 at 200mm!! How fantastic! You either have to choose peffect sharpness at 70 or at 200.

Since I moved to MFT, all this crap is over and can't be happier :-)

--
Florent
http://capturedbyflo.com
http://capturedbyflo.blogspot.com
 
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Pretty impressive considering there's a flipping mirror, pentaprism, and 4X as big sensor packed into it. I'm not sure what lens that is on the OMD but I'm betting it doesn't match the light gathering capability of the f/1.8 lens on the Df either.
It's a panasonic 25mm f1.4...
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As much as it pains me to do this, as I've been an avid Nikon shooter for many years, I have to interject as you can't just state inaccuracies as fact. That's unfair to people who use these forums to gather information.
The Sony looks nice, but will it autofocus with my f-mount lenses?
No. It does however autofocus e-mount, a-mount and (slowly) Canon EF lenses:

http://www.metabones.com/sony/buy-eos-nex-adapter

More importantly, it will manually focus pretty much EVERY lens manufactured, including Nikon f-mount and all the RF lenses (some of which are tiny). It's part of the reason I was able to use an NEX aps-c camera as a backup to my D700 as all my Nikon primes worked fine.

The Nikon DF cannot mount anything except f-mounts. So quite a lot less flexible as you're tied to only one mount.
I personally do not have the time (or skill) to manually focus a moving subject. I shoot a lot of kids and some weddings. I do not own anything else than F-mount lenses so the ability to use another mount is of little relevance to me.

Will the focal length stay the same?
Yes. It's a 35mm full frame camera, just like the Nikon D3/D3s/D4/D700/D610/D800/DF. Why would the focus length change?

Unless you're talking about the OMD, but then you started your previous question with Sony so it would logically follow you are still talking about the Sony.
I was misinformed and stand corrected.

Will the battery be enough for a whole wedding?
I've always shot weddings using the battery grip on my D700, mainly because I like the added stability when shooting portraits. It's hard to believe that the battery grip for the A7(r) would also not allow a full day's wedding shoot.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008164-REG/sony_vgc1em_vertical_battery_grip_for.html

And even if it did not, it takes about 15 seconds to pop a new one in from your pocket - during which time you can continue using the camera. You'd have to be pretty unprepared photographer if that 15 seconds caused you to miss the critical first kiss photo. It takes far longer to change a lens (when you consider all the caps and what not).
I didn't do my research on the accessories thoroughly enough before ranting. Didn't realize they made a grip, but it's a bit ironic to add a grip to a body and make it bigger when the sales pitch is mostly about the size.

Nope, nope and NOPE!
Well done Niklas.
 
For a camera to be used hand-held, running-and-shooting, a bit of heft can help steady one's hold, and the same is true of a hand-filling grip. The DF may win the heft race, but the E-M1 may have a grip that fills the hand a bit better fore-and-aft. I will know when I can handle each camera.
All of the photos comparisons posted above bear out the following for me: The E-M1 is too small for my grip. I've been shooting the Olympus E-5. With Oly saying they will not build any more DSLRs I am switching to a Nikon FF. I tried the E-M5 and it was too small. My finger tips bore into the front face before I could get a grip around the grip. It was more like pinching than gripping. I also don't care for the many limitations of MILC.
 
As to the % of sales, I believe a big part of it in customer perception and inertia. This is bound to change, but it may take quite some time. The average Joe strongly believes the larger the camera, the better the pictures. There is a lack of awareness of the general public.

That being said, there is no doubt mirrorless systems are the future, whether we like it or not. From a pure technological point of view mirror box cameras are very much outdated. Their days are certainly counted. It may not happen next year or in 5 years even, but it certainly will.
This always comes across as a copout to me, to put such a big market share issue down purely to consumer ignorance is IMHO highly questionable.

I think it also doesn't really reflect the reality of the camera market. If you look at DSLR owners today how many of them moved seamlessly from a 35mm SLR? I'm guessing a pretty low percentage.

Nikon and Canon have had massive growth in sales over recent years and I'd guess much of those sales are to younger people who've never used a film SLR. Even those who may have used one in the past most likely moved to digital with a compact camera first so have experience of a smaller form factor.

"Mirrorless" may well replace DSLR's but the big question would be what form of mirrorless. Todays mirrorless targets size saving because IMHO that's were its advantages lie while DSLR's still offer superior performance in more areas. If that disadvantage goes away it doesn't hold that everyone will suddenly want a tiny camera, especially as lens sizes are unlikely to change.

Its IMHO a mistake to compare photography to say computers or mobile phones, those are markets mostly driven by casual use and casual users will tend to value size over functionality. Photography has I'd say always been driven more by serious users, by that I don't just mean pro's and people sending thosands, even someone who buys an entry level SLR takes photography more seriously than probably 95% of the public. Joe public spend a lot on their phones and compters for casual use, they don't spend a lot on their camera's which are now just a minor feature in said phones.

The less the market is based on casual use the more functionality counts for and a larger body gives a better grip and room for more controls and readouts that can be used more quickly.
 
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F 1.4 is f 1.4 doesn't matter what size the sensor is. The only thing that changes is the depth of field. The the 0.95 MFT lens is closer to f 2 on full frame in that regard and that regard only.
Given the same sensor technology the FF sensor gives two stops better noise performance, and can use two stops higher ISO for the same image quality. So a 25 1.4 on m43 is in practical terms (noise performance and DOF) eqv to a 50 2.8 on FF.

If you dont believe it, enlarge an image and see if the visible noise increases or decreases.
Actually, with the latest generation of M43s sensors, they outperform relative to their size. What I mean is that they are actually proximate in low light performance until about iso 1000-1600. Being proximate actually means the smaller sensor is working harder. Technological innovation derived from smartphone cameras enhances the performance of the Sony m43s sensor, and it's exactly the same technology as allows for the (relatively low noise) 36mp in the D800. Better technology starts in smaller sensors first and works it's way up the size scale.

However, none of that means that M43s sensors are better than FF, because they aren't. You can cheat, but you cannot beat, the laws of physics. That said, a lot of the time I prefer the DOF characteristics of APS-c or m43s cameras to FF. Razor thin DOF is a bit overdone. What I want my Ff cameras for is low light and pure resolution.
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As to the % of sales, I believe a big part of it in customer perception and inertia. This is bound to change, but it may take quite some time. The average Joe strongly believes the larger the camera, the better the pictures. There is a lack of awareness of the general public.

That being said, there is no doubt mirrorless systems are the future, whether we like it or not. From a pure technological point of view mirror box cameras are very much outdated. Their days are certainly counted. It may not happen next year or in 5 years even, but it certainly will.
This always comes across as a copout to me, to put such a big market share issue down purely to consumer ignorance is IMHO highly questionable.

I think it also doesn't really reflect the reality of the camera market. If you look at DSLR owners today how many of them moved seamlessly from a 35mm SLR? I'm guessing a pretty low percentage.

Nikon and Canon have had massive growth in sales over recent years and I'd guess much of those sales are to younger people who've never used a film SLR. Even those who may have used one in the past most likely moved to digital with a compact camera first so have experience of a smaller form factor.

"Mirrorless" may well replace DSLR's but the big question would be what form of mirrorless. Todays mirrorless targets size saving because IMHO that's were its advantages lie while DSLR's still offer superior performance in more areas. If that disadvantage goes away it doesn't hold that everyone will suddenly want a tiny camera, especially as lens sizes are unlikely to change.

Its IMHO a mistake to compare photography to say computers or mobile phones, those are markets mostly driven by casual use and casual users will tend to value size over functionality. Photography has I'd say always been driven more by serious users, by that I don't just mean pro's and people sending thosands, even someone who buys an entry level SLR takes photography more seriously than probably 95% of the public. Joe public spend a lot on their phones and compters for casual use, they don't spend a lot on their camera's which are now just a minor feature in said phones.

The less the market is based on casual use the more functionality counts for and a larger body gives a better grip and room for more controls and readouts that can be used more quickly.
I mostly agree with what you wrote.

However, notice I mentioned "mirrorless" and not a specific sensor format. My comparison what mirrorless vs SLR (or DSLR) technology. I believe there will be large mirrorless as well as small ones, all using the same technology just in different form factors and sizes to suit users' needs.

As to average users, I witnessed so many times people asking me "this is a great shot, it was surely taken with one of these big DSLRs. What camera did you use?". As if the camera was the reason why the picture looked good. It's pretty funny, but this kind of reasoning is still the perception of the vast majority of the population and users. The fact is, for most practical accounts, a smaller sensor such as m43 is good enough to provide very good IQ in most conditions. I believe the IQ of smaller formats has already reached the "good enough" mark.
 
thxbb12 wrote:.
I mostly agree with what you wrote.

However, notice I mentioned "mirrorless" and not a specific sensor format. My comparison what mirrorless vs SLR (or DSLR) technology. I believe there will be large mirrorless as well as small ones, all using the same technology just in different form factors and sizes to suit users' needs.

As to average users, I witnessed so many times people asking me "this is a great shot, it was surely taken with one of these big DSLRs. What camera did you use?". As if the camera was the reason why the picture looked good. It's pretty funny, but this kind of reasoning is still the perception of the vast majority of the population and users. The fact is, for most practical accounts, a smaller sensor such as m43 is good enough to provide very good IQ in most conditions. I believe the IQ of smaller formats has already reached the "good enough" mark.

--
Florent
http://capturedbyflo.com
http://capturedbyflo.blogspot.com
..of course the big question then becomes who controls this mirrorless future. If size isn't an issue then using a DSLR mount becomes perfectly reasonable.

I'd agree theres still the perception that the camera alone results in a good picture but I think you overestimate how much a DSLR specifically is involved in that, especially with actual buyers.
 
Sorry but OMD has 25/f1.4 on it, so it is 2/3 stops faster lens than f1.8 lenses on Sony and Nikon.

f-stop is focal length divided by aperture diameter.

Obviously lenses with same max f-stop number will be smaller on MFT than FF cameras.
Pretty impressive considering there's a flipping mirror, pentaprism, and 4X as big sensor packed into it. I'm not sure what lens that is on the OMD but I'm betting it doesn't match the light gathering capability of the f/1.8 lens on the Df either.
 
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But it seems that EM-1 has biggest brain of the three (more features) :D

Anyhow you look at it, the EM-1 is also smallest, cheapest and fastest. If one doesn't usually print very large images, there's no significant benefit from larger sensor.

Yeah the Nikon is a man sized camera, the others are sized for boys.

Seriously, it's crazy to make things as small as possible, they did that with phones then realised that in order to maintain their functionality they had to be up to a certain size!

Form should always follow function in my view.
 
Sorry but OMD has 25/f1.4 on it, so it is 2/3 stops faster lens than f1.8 lenses on Sony and Nikon.

f-stop is focal length divided by aperture diameter.

Obviously lenses with same max f-stop number will be smaller on MFT than FF cameras.
Pretty impressive considering there's a flipping mirror, pentaprism, and 4X as big sensor packed into it. I'm not sure what lens that is on the OMD but I'm betting it doesn't match the light gathering capability of the f/1.8 lens on the Df either.
I noted "light gathering capability" which is a function of both f-stop and sensor size. f/1.4 on a 2X crop sensor (relative to full frame) is like f/2.8 on full frame in terms of light gathering. It's a simple function of the density of the light (determined by f-stop) multiplied by the sensor area. A sensor with only 1/4 of the area needs 4X denser light (2 stops faster lens) to gather same light as the full size sensor.

When speaking of equal fields of view, lenses for m4/3 will generally be smaller than those for full frame for the same max f-stop. However, especially as you go into the telephoto region, and compare by true focal length, the size difference disappears entirely. See the Olympus 300mm f/2.8 for 4/3 (yes, I know it's not m4/3 but no such thing exists for that format) and the Nikon 300mm f/2.8 that illuminate a sensor 4X as big:



The Nikon is actually a little smaller and significantly lighter (though that clearly has nothing to do with the different format size).
 
My 85/1.4 focuses perfectly accurately using PDAF wide open, and it's a Sigma. No issues with my Nikon 35/1.4 either. How do those m4/3 17/0.7 and 42/0.7 lenses do? Oh, right....
For PDAF accuracy to be perfect, the focus sensor must be perfectly aligned to the image sensor and lenses have to be perfectly calibrated, which is rarely fully the case.
For any lens/camera combo to work well, alignment of lens to sensor needs to be very near perfect. Manufacturers manage to do that time and again, and they also manage it for PDAF sensors.
Why do you think manufacturers provide lens micro-adjustments? It's to overcome these inaccuracies. The technology requires extremely accurate and precise calibration to offer perfect focus. The higher the resolution (and pixel density), the more sensitive it is to any misalignment. It's just how the technology works. Whether you accept it or not doesn't change the fact. It's simply outdated.
Calling it outdated doesn't mean that it doesn't work very well. At ultra-thin DOFs (at levels currently unachievable on a 4/3 sensor) I'd rather have a sensor that can accurately track my subject's (and my own) movements than one that gives me a little better accuracy at the point at which my subject once was.
I used to own a D800 which was a fantastic camera. However, getting perfect AF for all of my lenses was a nightmare. I used the Reikan FoCal software to calibrate all of my lenses. Guess what? My 70-200 required -2 at 70mm and +8 at 200mm!! How fantastic! You either have to choose peffect sharpness at 70 or at 200.

Since I moved to MFT, all this crap is over and can't be happier :-)
Yes, since all that DOF control that you had is gone so focus accuracy isn't much of an issue any more. The fastest m4/3 zooms that I'm aware of start at f/5.6 FF equivalent (f/2.8 Panasonics, which cost more than faster f/4 lenses for full frame to boot). That's horribly limiting in my opinion.

And honestly, if you sold your D800 and 70-200/2.8 solely because some horribly imperfect lens calibration software told you that your lens wouldn't work perfectly, you made a really bad decision. Did you consider typically working distances when you calibrated your lens or did you shoot targets at almost minimum focus distance? I've dealt with a zoom that needed different fine tune values to be "perfect" (and that was at one specific focus distance). Using an in between value for the micro adjustment made it a non-issue in real world shooting. But I don't cherish my test shot photos like some here.
 
shoot two or more systems ;) . I have 3 Nikon FX, 3 DX and two Oly 43 (and soon the EM1). Some times I want light weight and will sacrifice ISO and dof and other times I cannot physically carry the weight. The DF gives me nothing than more than one(or more) of my existing cameras cannot.

I prefer the controls of my existing Nikons, I do not want to go back to the Nikkormat or FM and all of my new lenses are better than any I had in the past. Less expensive for the DF or better specs/features for even more money might be interesting :) .
 

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