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Monochrome sensor ? on Df

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Jane79 said:
On the traditional Bayer sensor, there are 4 input pixels for each output pixel.
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That is not true; each output pixel corresponds to each sensor pixel, and a symmetrical set of pixels surrounding it, with dimensions in an odd number of pixels, since there is a central pixel.
 
John Sheehy said:
Jane79 said:
On the traditional Bayer sensor, there are 4 input pixels for each output pixel.
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That is not true; each output pixel corresponds to each sensor pixel, and a symmetrical set of pixels surrounding it, with dimensions in an odd number of pixels, since there is a central pixel.
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But, there are several sensor pixels used to create a single output pixel (via whatever demosaicing algorithm is being deployed) and this means that each output pixel is some sort of interpolation involving other pixels around it. By nature that interpolation makes the resolving capability significantly less than if each pixel stood on it's own as in a pure monochrome sensor.

FWIW, I'm not expecting Nikon to produce a monochrome sensor product so this is probably an academic exercise.
 
jfriend00 said:
CFynn said:
jacketpotato said:
Would perhaps be what Nikon see as "Pure Photography"

Sets Df apart from D6xx D8xx not just cosmetically but also internally.

White balance settings a non issue.

Rear LCD just for checking photgrpah taken and formatting card (although both these could be done in hybrid EVF thus doing away with rear LCD).
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Buy a Df and get it converted to monochrome - there are specialists that do this.
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And what kind of image would you expect to see on the LCD display after taking a photo? And what RAW processing software would you be able to use?
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I'm not sure what it would look like in the rear LCD, but if you shot the image as monochrome you should see a monochrome image display.

You can apparently use regular PP software, equalize levels and then convert to grayscale.

Also some RAW software like dcraw allows you to avoid the demosaicing.
 
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OJReddaway said:
Actually Not True that only Leica make a B&W digital camera Phase One make the IQ260 Achromatic Back:-

http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ2-Series/IQ2-Specifications.aspx

If you go to the site of Murray Fredericks look at his Hector series of photographs shot with an earlier version of the Phase One Back:-

http://www.murrayfredericks.com.au/projects/hector/#1

I have seen these prints exhibited and they are nothing short of stunning, one of very few attempts that match the quality of classic silver prints.

Kind Regards,

Oliver
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I'd forgotten about that but again your looking at a very specialist product aimed at very high end users who are willing to work around its limations which I'm guessing might be less on MF with more headroom for highlights?
 
michaeladawson said:
You have to have a RAW image first before you convert it to tiff. Whether you save a raw image to the flash card or not is sort of irrelevant. Nikon still needs to code a RAW converter for the camera. And I think you would still want a RAW file for those instances where you are trying to recover shadows and highlights. You can't really do that if you've already converted to tiff.
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The differences between a monochrome RAW and a TIFF are very small; there is no reason why a monochrome RAW couldn't be presented as a TIFF, except for some small issues that might need to be dealt with:
  1. Many cameras (wisely, IMO) leave the DC offset in the RAW data. For example, RAW level 32, 64, 128, 256, 1024, or 2048 may be the true black level in a RAW. You would need to subtract these values from the RAW data to have a normal image file, as the ones you edit in an image processing program. Nikon does this before it writes the RAW (a bad decision, for other reasons, IMO), so that is not an issue with Nikon.
  2. Also, the RAW data is linear and has no gamma applied. For low ISO images, this may cause everything to look very dark, so gamma needs to be applied (for noisier, high-ISO images, the noise itself can create a "dot gamma" effect which may make tones look normal without gamma correction, and IMO, B&W needs less gamma correction than color, in general).
  3. The highlight clipping point of the RAW is usually much higher than the normal whitepoint of a TIFF, so including the full RAW headroom would make everything else darker yet, in addition to the darkness due to a lack of gamma correction.
The solution to all three is just a simple tone curve adjustment in PP (and #1 would not even be an issue with Nikon). So, the RAW could actually be output as a TIFF, ready to go right into you favorite image processing program, only needing tone curve tweaks. There are no hieroglyphics to decode.
 
Moondancer said:
B&W conversion in post is still different than a monochrome sensor due to lack of color filter.
People who buy monochrome is going after IQ
without any color filter or anti alias filter.
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While it is very likely that a manufacturer would omit an AA filter in a monochrome camera, that is not really the right thing to do. It really should at the very least have at least a very mild AA filter to prevent low-frequency beating artifacts, if not jaggies.

The real solution, as always, is more MP, but that is very slow in coming.
 
romfordbluenose said:
Yes you are correct, but the capability for B&W is then how you translate the RGB into a series of grey-scales. I see no reason why creating just a grey-scale device has any benefit, especially when the take-up is unlikely to be financially viable.
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There are tremendous benefits with a monochrome camera. The Bayer CFA is extremely wasteful of light, and very wasteful of resolution of individual color channels, and heavily aliases them, especially when there is no AA filter.

The flexibility of doing B&W from a color Bayer camera comes at a great cost in IQ, compared to shooting the same sensor without a CFA, and using color filters, or not using them at all.
 
jacketpotato said:
Would perhaps be what Nikon see as "Pure Photography"

Sets Df apart from D6xx D8xx not just cosmetically but also internally.

White balance settings a non issue.

Rear LCD just for checking photgrpah taken and formatting card (although both these could be done in hybrid EVF thus doing away with rear LCD).
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Imagine what would happen after Nikon had been leading people on with these teaser videos and then announcing a camera that only a tiny number of people would be interested in!
 
CFynn said:
rhlpetrus said:
Best b&w is developed from color file by yourself.
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The Bayer filter does cut out quite a bit of light
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But to have a decent b&w, with filtering alternatives, it eeds some sort of color info to be recorded. Silicon photosites have a very distorted color response, so it needs equalization anyway.
 
Leica can get away with a camera made of SillyPutty for $10K because their customers wear leather underwear and have rubber hoods over their faces with a ball strapped to their mouths, or so I've heard ... Nikon fans are just a bit more grounded in reality... a monochrome SLR would be a huge white elephant for Nippon Kogaku and might kill them. If this turns out to be a digital FM (or F3)... with ability to employ AI Nikkors, then they may have the camera of the year and cost this Nikon-turned-Canon/Fuji user a bunch of moola!

PS--all references to Leica fans is in jest (mostly :o)
 
jacketpotato said:
Would perhaps be what Nikon see as "Pure Photography"

Sets Df apart from D6xx D8xx not just cosmetically but also internally.

White balance settings a non issue.

Rear LCD just for checking photgrpah taken and formatting card (although both these could be done in hybrid EVF thus doing away with rear LCD).
Click to expand...
There's retro and then there's really retro. How far back would you have to go to find a mass produced consumer film camera that couldn't shoot color?

Sal
 
Paul Farace said:
Leica can get away with a camera made of SillyPutty for $10K because their customers wear leather underwear and have rubber hoods over their faces with a ball strapped to their mouths, or so I've heard
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You've heard wrong. If you can remember who told you this it is worth making his name known - such clowns are quite a public treat.
 
romfordbluenose said:
Colour is defined by the computer processor and not by the sensor (IR apart which needs different sensors). So stating something is B&W has no real meaning.
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Eh - not really true. It's the other way around - there is no color, only black and white. The sensor has filters that break out the spectrum for a given pixel and that's extrapolated as that particular color.
 
romfordbluenose said:
jfriend00 said:
romfordbluenose said:
Colour is defined by the computer processor and not by the sensor (IR apart which needs different sensors). So stating something is B&W has no real meaning.
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Color sensitivity (the ability to tell one color from another) is enabled by the color filter array on top of the sensor.

--
John
Gallery: http://jfriend.smugmug.com
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Yes you are correct, but the capability for B&W is then how you translate the RGB into a series of grey-scales. I see no reason why creating just a grey-scale device has any benefit, especially when the take-up is unlikely to be financially viable.
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There could/should be great benefit because you don't have to divide 16Mp by three (RGB). If you have a BW 16Mp sensor, it's 100% black and white and you theoretically can get better resolution.
 
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