Full Frame Hysteria - a Reality Check (be happy with m43 - I am)

Although macro is the classical case where you look for deep DOF and you can get some by stopping down to f/11 or more, my situation is completely different.
In most cases you do not need macro to be stopped beyond f/11, unless you use some other setup than a regular macro lens alone.
For a big part of my work, I need deep DOF at f/2.8 or even less, which was not so easy to get with FF and as i mentioned, this was one of the reasons among others, to switch to MFT.
Don't know what imaginary world that is you live in, but deep DoF is quite easy with FF formats for most cases.
And btw, I used to shoot macro a lot in the past and I stopped. I'll probably come back to it one day.
 
Not deeper DoF alone. But same DoF as you can get with FF but along with less shadow noise. ;-)
Yes, same noise, for equally efficient sensors (e.g. the 6D vs EM5). If, however, you wish to make the argument that, as a general rule, smaller sensors are more efficient than larger sensors, then that is a discussion worth having. I invite you to start such a thread in the Photographic Science and Technology Forum.
That's the argument I am making, yes. And it holds for the 6D versus the E-M5 too, although in that particular case, the difference is minimal at high ISOs but considerable at low.

More specifically, I am arguing that on average (across sensors as well ISOs), for sensors of roughly the same generation, smaller sensors tend to be more efficient with regard to read noise. If you go down to sizes where the smaller sensors use BSI, that may hold for QE too. The above and below comparison between some recent FF sensors and the E-M1 is merely an illustration of the general tendency that loss of DR is not proportional to loss of sensor area, but less than that.
Like I said, I think it would be a great thread to start in the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, and goes along very well with this thread that just filled up and is being continued here.
Seems like the matter is already debated there so there would be little reason to start a new one on the same/similar topic. But I might jump in if I find the time.

In the meantime, do you find any reason to doubt that what I say is true as a statistical generalization (which is all I am aiming for)? We don't have to go into the issue of whether Bob fit his curves right to determine that. The DxO DR curves (along with the figure for max SNR if we have any doubts with regard to QE) tells us everything we need to know, right?
As the light gets lower and lower, the read noise matters more and more. So, even if two sensors from different formats are equally efficient (same QE and read noise / area), the noise difference will vanish as the light gets lower and the photos get noisier.

It's not unlike diffraction. For example, take a super sharp lens on a D800 vs a super sharp lens on the EM1. The D800 will resolve significantly better at peak resolution. However, as we stop the lenses down, the resolution advantage of the D800 will asymptotically vanish as diffraction softening becomes dominant and the resolved detail lessens.

For example, in the same way that we might say that f/32 on a D800 resolves pretty much the same as f/16 on mFT, despite the difference in pixel count (and even lens sharpness), we could also say that the noise at f/2.8 ISO 102400 on FF will be essentially the same as the noise at f/2.8 ISO 102400 on mFT.

That is, just as the resolution advantage of sharper lenses and higher pixel counts only manifest themselves at apertures not dominated by diffraction softening, the noise advantage of larger sensor systems for a given exposure and sensor efficiency also vanishes as the light gets lower.

On the question of sensor efficiency vs format, however, that's another question. While the EM5 sensor is more efficient than the D800 sensor at higher ISO settings, the 6D sensor is almost the exact same efficiency, so if there's a correlation between sensor size and efficiency, I've not yet seen it. However, it does seem that mFT and APS-C systems are updated more frequently than FF systems, so they may be getting the newer tech earlier in some generations. It will be interesting to see how the A7 sensor compares to the EM1 sensor.

Still, I've talked way to much on this topic in this thread. As I said, you should visit the new forum for such discussions. Plenty of nerds there. ;-)
 
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Anders W wrote:
We don't have to go into the issue of whether Bob fit his curves right to determine that. The DxO DR curves (along with the figure for max SNR if we have any doubts with regard to QE) tells us everything we need to know, right?
Bob is aware that the curves fit is not 100% accurate. Bob's quite happy to continue to do what he does. Bob's less happy with the idea of shelling out several thousand on Matlab software to continue to offer the free service that he does, just because one person obsesses about the fact that the routines Bob uses don't quite get the fit right.
 
We don't have to go into the issue of whether Bob fit his curves right to determine that. The DxO DR curves (along with the figure for max SNR if we have any doubts with regard to QE) tells us everything we need to know, right?
Bob is aware that the curves fit is not 100% accurate. Bob's quite happy to continue to do what he does. Bob's less happy with the idea of shelling out several thousand on Matlab software to continue to offer the free service that he does, just because one person obsesses about the fact that the routines Bob uses don't quite get the fit right.
I dunno, Bob. I'm totally OK with you shelling out a few quid on the software to provide me with the free service. And while I'm asking...

:-D
 
We don't have to go into the issue of whether Bob fit his curves right to determine that. The DxO DR curves (along with the figure for max SNR if we have any doubts with regard to QE) tells us everything we need to know, right?
Bob is aware that the curves fit is not 100% accurate. Bob's quite happy to continue to do what he does. Bob's less happy with the idea of shelling out several thousand on Matlab software to continue to offer the free service that he does, just because one person obsesses about the fact that the routines Bob uses don't quite get the fit right.
I dunno, Bob. I'm totally OK with you shelling out a few quid on the software to provide me with the free service. And while I'm asking...

:-D
How many times do I have to tell you? I couldn't afford her, and even it I could I wouldn't be offering a free service. Try it on with Gregg.
 
I think that people who shoot FF are often trying for max IQ. Thus, a FF photographer probably would not want to stop down past f/22 (f/11 on mFT) due to the effects of diffraction softening. Instead, they would opt for focus stacking. Otherwise, even mFT is even overkill, for DOFs that deep, and many compacts will do as well in a smaller, lighter, and less expensive package.
You will notice I said much easier, not that it can't be done.
It's easier to get DOFs beyond f/22 on FF, but such DOFs are well into diffraction softening territory. So much so that...
The 60mm macro on an E-M1 can give you spectacular results without resorting to focus stacking for other means.
...it doesn't matter how sharp the lens is at that point -- diffraction will rob it of most of the resolution advantage it had over even mediocre lenses by that point.

By the way, any macro lens on any FF body can also "give you spectacular results without resorting to focus stacking for other means."
I've actually done all the ones I've tried so far handheld.
I'm also thinking macro photographers going after max IQ aren't often going to reach that goal with handheld shooting. That said, I shoot macro handheld all the time, and, if I do say so myself, get some decent results.
That simply would not be possible with a FF camera (believe me, I tried with some Nikons).
I am guessing you are talking about the utility of IS for macro shooting. I've not heard anything about Olympus' IBIS at macro shooting distances, but I'd be rather surprised to learn it was as, or more, effective than the IS in Canon's 100 / 2.8L IS macro.

Regardless, I wouldn't take your success with mFT and lack of success with Nikon FF as evidence of mFT being superior than FF, but I would take it as evidence that mFT works better for you.
So it's not a matter of ultimate technical quality, it's a matter of balance between quality and ease of use.
Well, I take the occasional macro, and the number one issue I have is when even the slightest breeze keeps moving the flower or leaf I'm shooting. Aside from that, there are no "ease of use" issues for me using FF in macro shooting other than the uncomfortable positions I sometimes have to get in to get the angle I want.

Just for kicks, this was handheld:

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/4, 1/125, ISO 400

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/4, 1/125, ISO 400

I don't doubt for a minute that someone else could not have done just as well, if not better, with an EM5 + 60 / 2.8 macro at f/2.8, 1/125, ISO 200. On the deeper end of the DOF spectrum:

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/11, 1/100, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/11, 1/100, ISO 100

I suppose a different person would have shot the same at f/22, 1/100, ISO 400 for a more DOF at the expense of greater diffraction softening, but, either way, in my opinion. If, for some reason, you are of the opinion that what the shot needed was f/22 on mFT (f/45 on FF), then let's just say we see things differently, and that, sure, if that's the case, mFT will suit you better than FF.

However, as I said, a compact might even suit you better still.
 
Using a lens that can do f/1.2 is an advantage only when you want as shallow DoF as such a lens can provide on FF.
Or, more usually for more people, if you want more light on the sensor for a given shutter speed for less noise.
If you hardly ever want that, as the poster and I, it is a disadvantage, because the lens will be unnecessarily large and heavy.
The lens is not that heavy, it is relative. The lens is sharper, if you shoot a F1.2 lens and F1.4, it will be much sharper than a lens that starts at f1.4 because for that lens F1.4 is wide open and has the poorest quality, as you stop down, it gets better. So you would buy a F1.2 lens for sharper images.
Not necessarily. Check out the 50 / 1.2L vs the 50 / 1.4 -- the 50 / 1.4 outresolves the 50 / 1.2L everywhere across the frame at every aperture. Then again, having owned both lenses, that isn't my experience, so either my lenses or PZ's lenses were not representative, or the MTF-50 numbers don't do a good job of representing perceived resolution. But that's another topic.

On the other hand, the 70-200 / 2.8L IS II outresolves the 70-200 / 4L IS everywhere in the frame at every focal length and at every aperture (albeit not by much).

What I'm saying, I suppose, is that there are examples on both sides of the issue.
 
...but the size, weight, and price. For example, you could have taken the photo above at 35mm f/1.8 1/15 ISO 12800 and gotten then same DOF and noise. But then what's the purpose of FF?
So? There are always different ways to get athe same results.
Depends on the results you are after.
True, but sometimes there is more than one way to get these results, don't you think it is up to the photographer to decide about it?
Again, it depends on the results you're after. However, let's be honest about it -- how many photos taken at f/1.4 would have been "less successful" at f/2.8? How many photos taken at ISO 400 would have been "less successful" at ISO 1600? How many photos taken with 36 MP would be "less successful" if they were captured with 16 MP? I'm not saying that they would look the same, but asking how often the difference would result in the photo becoming "less successful".

I'm sure there are some, though probably more common that a photo taken at ISO 12800 is "less successful" than a photo taken at ISO 3200 than the 400 - 1600 pairing, for example. And, sure, for people that are usually operating at these fringes, it does make a significant difference. But for 99% of the people 99% of the time, does it really?

Of course, as I have said many times before, if such a thing were true, then you could apply it to smaller formats still. For example, how many would not be served just as well, if not better, even, by the RX100 and/or FZ200 than mFT? Hell, I see some people producing better pics with a freakin' phone cam than I do with a FF DSLR and fast primes.

In other words, everything one says about mFT vs FF can also be said about mFT vs 1", and on down the line.

On the other hand, it's not always so simple to instead stand back further with mFT and use 75mm f/1.8 rather than a closer shot at 85mm f/1.8 on FF, and get a pic that is "just as good" or "better".
Dear GB, sre we trolling again? as usual, you are answering a question tha was never asked justfair the sake of arguing. So please read again my question

don't you think it is up to the photographer to decide about it?

All the above is irrelevant to a simple question that needed nothing more than yes or no as an answer.
In other words, deeper DOF isn't the reason to choose mFT over FF, except for those that need DOFs beyond what f/11 on mFT can offer.
That depends on what you do.
I confess that it didn't occur to me that people would be shooting concerts at f/2.8 in low light in the 100mm - 200mm range (200mm - 400mm on FF).
With the exception of macro, I don't know why you'd be using DOFs greater than f/11 on mFT (f/22 on FF). Even for those "smooth water" pics in good light, better to use an ND filter at a wider aperture (less diffraction softening for the portions of the scene that aren't in motion) than narrow apertures.
In my case, it was one of the reasons to move from FF to MFT.
I didn't know you were shot macro a lot, thus using f/22 and more narrow on FF so often that it made mFT the better choice.
Although macro is the classical case where you look for deep DOF and you can get some by stopping down to f/11 or more, my situation is completely different. For a big part of my work, I need deep DOF at f/2.8 or even less, which was not so easy to get with FF and as i mentioned, this was one of the reasons among others, to switch to MFT.
You don't "need deep DOF at f/2.8 or even less"....
Thank you for your tips, I really appreciate it but I don't think that you even start to understand what I do and the special needs of my profession, nor do you have any experience in the field so how do expect me to take you seriously?

Trust me that I know my profession, I know what I need and I have enough experience to decide which tools I have to use. So if I have switched from FF to MFT, it was for a good and very well studied reason.

Believe me, I really understand you urge to talk and to try to impress others with you knoledge but sometimes we have also to listen to others and to try to understand especially when we talk to people who have more experience In the field.

Cheers

Moti
 
No, I am not ignorant.
Sure you are.
That's just an assertion, not an argument, and why would anyone care about your opinion?
They would care about it about as much as they care about yours.
Which obviates the need for an FF camera and an f/1.2 lens, which was the point the poster made (although you didn't get it).
I got it but it does not remove the advantage. Go talk to any pro, anyone with knowledge, they will tell you having a lens that can do f1.2 is always an advantage. Have a camere that because of equivalence cannot come close is a disadvantage.

If you don't know this, you are very ignorant because it is fact.
Using a lens that can do f/1.2 is an advantage only when you want as shallow DoF as such a lens can provide on FF. If you hardly ever want that, as the poster and I, it is a disadvantage, because the lens will be unnecessarily large and heavy.
The lens is not that heavy, it is relative. The lens is sharper, if you shoot a F1.2 lens and F1.4, it will be much sharper than a lens that starts at f1.4 because for that lens F1.4 is wide open and has the poorest quality, as you stop down, it gets better. So you would buy a F1.2 lens for sharper images.
For the latter purpose, if you want more subject isolation by means of background blur and can't open up more than you already have
That is the problem with smaller formats like m43, you cannot open the aperture wide enough to isolate bacgraound
You were obviously talking about what can be done to increase subject isolation in the field, with a specific camera. So I merely corrected what you had to say about that.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about, does not make much sense to discuss it with you.
As everyone can see for themselves,
That is true. Pro's see it, Advanced amateurs see it, everyone sees it except the little guys who feel the need to bash FF because they are insecure because they have a small format.
You don't have to see it. Everyone can go to DxO and look at the figures but that is not the point. The point is how exactly do you interpret these figures into real world photography and this is something that many amateurs like you fail to understand.

Moti
 
Thank you for your tips, I really appreciate it but I don't think that you even start to understand what I do and the special needs of my profession, nor do you have any experience in the field so how do expect me to take you seriously?

Trust me that I know my profession, I know what I need and I have enough experience to decide which tools I have to use. So if I have switched from FF to MFT, it was for a good and very well studied reason.

..
Till you post some images. I looked into your challenges, and this is what I see,

Focal length: 50 mm
Shutter speed: 1/800 sec
Aperture: F2.2
ISO: 800

Could have been easily done with double or similar range lens @f/4 ISO 1600. Very much so.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=168258

32 mm
Shutter speed: 1/25 sec
Aperture: F4
ISO: 1600

I would have used the same or even faster settings with double FL on FF camera. The image would look better. There would be absolutely no wrong in blurring the dark.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=209089

Same here,

Focal length: 160 mm
Shutter speed: 1/125 sec
Aperture: F3.2
ISO: 1600

It is unfortunate you were far from the stage here, but double FL (300/4 lens) and at the same settings could have done it beautifully.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=326596

What is it (or else) that you are not telling us? Easier to carry?

--
- sergey
 
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The two most powerful males go head to head. I think that happen with Canon and Nikon.

But I would agree, it does not matter what brand you own, if you feel the need to prove it is the best, then you are insecure. The reason those guys don't go after m43rds because they are not threatend by it.
They are not threatened, because the confuse quantity with quality.
I would agree, because they know the quality of Canikon is better. Again they do not have to get into debates about it.
Size with pixel resolution.

The eye of a falcon with the eye of a pig.
When someone tells me the smaller systems produce better images, is all you have to do is look at pictures of pros who use both systems. Anyone could figure it out, even a falcon or a pig. Canikon produce the best images. If that changes, then the other side will have an argument.
So why do you feel the need to come and visit us? Even in Nikon forums you feel the need to teach fellow photogs the error in their ways:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52429968

Are you a wandering preacher? Or a wandering bore? Where is your photography?

Is that all the crap you shoot?

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3649437504/photos/2469830/honda

ROTFL

Go away, troll.

Am.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric/sets/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
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Anyone notice that towards the end of these 35mm discussions all you get are the same old cowboys: great bustard, Sergey green, raist 3d. Bobn2 etc.... Mutually back slapping each other for another successful raid.
 
Although macro is the classical case where you look for deep DOF and you can get some by stopping down to f/11 or more, my situation is completely different.
In most cases you do not need macro to be stopped beyond f/11, unless you use some other setup than a regular macro lens alone.
True i always prefer a good t/s lethef or best DOF control. Hopefully one day they'll make them for MFT.
For a big part of my work, I need deep DOF at f/2.8 or even less, which was not so easy to get with FF and as i mentioned, this was one of the reasons among others, to switch to MFT.
Don't know what imaginary world that is you live in, but deep DoF is quite easy with FF formats for most cases.
Sergei, are you nuts or what? Why are you trying so hard to show your ignorance? Do you know what I shoot? Do you have the slightest idea what are the issues I encounter in my job? Do you have any personal experience in the field that I'm working in? Probably not. But all this doesn't disturbs you from coming with a statement that is nothing else than pure trolling.

Working as a professional photographer is not an imaginert world, maybe for you but not for me. But I agree, deep dof is easy to get with a FF at f/2.8 for most cases as you said, but not all the time which happens to be my personal case, and if you had a little more sense in your head, you'd asked me first for details of what I do before coming up with a stupid answer.

Moti

--
http://www.pixpix.net
http://www.musicalpix.com (under construction)
 
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Thank you for your tips, I really appreciate it but I don't think that you even start to understand what I do and the special needs of my profession, nor do you have any experience in the field so how do expect me to take you seriously?

Trust me that I know my profession, I know what I need and I have enough experience to decide which tools I have to use. So if I have switched from FF to MFT, it was for a good and very well studied reason.

..
Till you post some images. I looked into your challenges, and this is what I see,

Focal length: 50 mm
Shutter speed: 1/800 sec
Aperture: F2.2
ISO: 800

Could have been easily done with double or similar range lens @f/4 ISO 1600. Very much so.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=168258

32 mm
Shutter speed: 1/25 sec
Aperture: F4
ISO: 1600

I would have used the same or even faster settings with double FL on FF camera. The image would look better. There would be absolutely no wrong in blurring the dark.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=209089

Same here,

Focal length: 160 mm
Shutter speed: 1/125 sec
Aperture: F3.2
ISO: 1600

It is unfortunate you were far from the stage here, but double FL (300/4 lens) and at the same settings could have done it beautifully.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=326596

What is it (or else) that you are not telling us? Easier to carry?
 
Although macro is the classical case where you look for deep DOF and you can get some by stopping down to f/11 or more, my situation is completely different.
In most cases you do not need macro to be stopped beyond f/11, unless you use some other setup than a regular macro lens alone.
True i always prefer a good t/s lethef or best DOF control. Hopefully one day they'll make them for MFT.
If you care about the composition, as insects portraits, then you should use aperture (and DoF) selectively.
For a big part of my work, I need deep DOF at f/2.8 or even less, which was not so easy to get with FF and as i mentioned, this was one of the reasons among others, to switch to MFT.
Don't know what imaginary world that is you live in, but deep DoF is quite easy with FF formats for most cases.
Sergei, are you nuts or what? Why are you trying so hard to show your ignorance? Do you know what I shoot? Do you have the slightest idea what are the issues I encounter in my job? Do you have any personal experience in the field that I'm working in? Probably not. But all this doesn't disturbs you from coming with a statement that is nothing else than pure trolling.
So show us. Post few images that would be very difficult with FF camera, we will all know better.
Working as a professional photographer is not an imaginert world, maybe for you but not for me. But I agree, deep dof is easy to get with a FF at f/2.8 for most cases as you said, but not all the time which happens to be my personal case, and if you had a little more sense in your head, you'd asked me first for details of what I do before coming up with a stupid answer.
Why not just spell it out with examples, and not pretend that you know something nobody else does. Is back and forward as it is really necessary?
 
Thank you for your tips, I really appreciate it but I don't think that you even start to understand what I do and the special needs of my profession, nor do you have any experience in the field so how do expect me to take you seriously?

Trust me that I know my profession, I know what I need and I have enough experience to decide which tools I have to use. So if I have switched from FF to MFT, it was for a good and very well studied reason.

..
Till you post some images. I looked into your challenges, and this is what I see,
Than you for using my photos to prove your point, I guess you did it because you have nothing of your own.
Focal length: 50 mm
Shutter speed: 1/800 sec
Aperture: F2.2
ISO: 800

Could have been easily done with double or similar range lens @f/4 ISO 1600. Very much so.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=168258

32 mm
Shutter speed: 1/25 sec
Aperture: F4
ISO: 1600

I would have used the same or even faster settings with double FL on FF camera. The image would look better. There would be absolutely no wrong in blurring the dark.
You could but you didn't. FYI, this is exactly the way I wanted the photo to look like so please stop farting.
http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=209089

Same here,

Focal length: 160 mm
Shutter speed: 1/125 sec
Aperture: F3.2
ISO: 1600

It is unfortunate you were far from the stage here, but double FL (300/4 lens) and at the same settings could
It is not. It is there where I choose to stand. As the official photographer of the event and again, don't try to teach me my profession. Come up with something like the done by you and then I'll start taking you seriously. Until then, you are just an ignorant troll.
have done it beautifully.
It was, because the pianist bought the photo when she saw it after the concert for her next album cover.
http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=326596

What is it (or else) that you are not telling us? Easier to carry?
Lots of things I'm not telling you because you are too narrow minded to understand

Moti
 
Not deeper DoF alone. But same DoF as you can get with FF but along with less shadow noise. ;-)
Yes, same noise, for equally efficient sensors (e.g. the 6D vs EM5). If, however, you wish to make the argument that, as a general rule, smaller sensors are more efficient than larger sensors, then that is a discussion worth having. I invite you to start such a thread in the Photographic Science and Technology Forum.
That's the argument I am making, yes. And it holds for the 6D versus the E-M5 too, although in that particular case, the difference is minimal at high ISOs but considerable at low.

More specifically, I am arguing that on average (across sensors as well ISOs), for sensors of roughly the same generation, smaller sensors tend to be more efficient with regard to read noise. If you go down to sizes where the smaller sensors use BSI, that may hold for QE too. The above and below comparison between some recent FF sensors and the E-M1 is merely an illustration of the general tendency that loss of DR is not proportional to loss of sensor area, but less than that.
Like I said, I think it would be a great thread to start in the Photographic Science and Technology Forum, and goes along very well with this thread that just filled up and is being continued here.
Seems like the matter is already debated there so there would be little reason to start a new one on the same/similar topic. But I might jump in if I find the time.

In the meantime, do you find any reason to doubt that what I say is true as a statistical generalization (which is all I am aiming for)? We don't have to go into the issue of whether Bob fit his curves right to determine that. The DxO DR curves (along with the figure for max SNR if we have any doubts with regard to QE) tells us everything we need to know, right?
As the light gets lower and lower, the read noise matters more and more. So, even if two sensors from different formats are equally efficient (same QE and read noise / area), the noise difference will vanish as the light gets lower and the photos get noisier.

It's not unlike diffraction. For example, take a super sharp lens on a D800 vs a super sharp lens on the EM1. The D800 will resolve significantly better at peak resolution. However, as we stop the lenses down, the resolution advantage of the D800 will asymptotically vanish as diffraction softening becomes dominant and the resolved detail lessens.

For example, in the same way that we might say that f/32 on a D800 resolves pretty much the same as f/16 on mFT, despite the difference in pixel count (and even lens sharpness), we could also say that the noise at f/2.8 ISO 102400 on FF will be essentially the same as the noise at f/2.8 ISO 102400 on mFT.
Don't quite understand what you mean. Your 6D very clearly beats the E-M1 at (pushed to) ISO 102400. It has about 2 (exposure) stops better SNR 18% and app. 1.5 Ev better DR.

That is, just as the resolution advantage of sharper lenses and higher pixel counts only manifest themselves at apertures not dominated by diffraction softening, the noise advantage of larger sensor systems for a given exposure and sensor efficiency also vanishes as the light gets lower.

On the question of sensor efficiency vs format, however, that's another question. While the EM5 sensor is more efficient than the D800 sensor at higher ISO settings, the 6D sensor is almost the exact same efficiency, so if there's a correlation between sensor size and efficiency, I've not yet seen it. However, it does seem that mFT and APS-C systems are updated more frequently than FF systems, so they may be getting the newer tech earlier in some generations. It will be interesting to see how the A7 sensor compares to the EM1 sensor.

Still, I've talked way to much on this topic in this thread. As I said, you should visit the new forum for such discussions. Plenty of nerds there. ;-)
 
Although macro is the classical case where you look for deep DOF and you can get some by stopping down to f/11 or more, my situation is completely different.
In most cases you do not need macro to be stopped beyond f/11, unless you use some other setup than a regular macro lens alone.
True i always prefer a good t/s lethef or best DOF control. Hopefully one day they'll make them for MFT.
If you care about the composition, as insects portraits, then you should use aperture (and DoF) selectively.
For a big part of my work, I need deep DOF at f/2.8 or even less, which was not so easy to get with FF and as i mentioned, this was one of the reasons among others, to switch to MFT.
Don't know what imaginary world that is you live in, but deep DoF is quite easy with FF formats for most cases.
Sergei, are you nuts or what? Why are you trying so hard to show your ignorance? Do you know what I shoot? Do you have the slightest idea what are the issues I encounter in my job? Do you have any personal experience in the field that I'm working in? Probably not. But all this doesn't disturbs you from coming with a statement that is nothing else than pure trolling.
So show us. Post few images that would be very difficult with FF camera, we will all know better.
Working as a professional photographer is not an imaginert world, maybe for you but not for me. But I agree, deep dof is easy to get with a FF at f/2.8 for most cases as you said, but not all the time which happens to be my personal case, and if you had a little more sense in your head, you'd asked me first for details of what I do before coming up with a stupid answer.
Why not just spell it out with examples, and not pretend that you know something nobody else does. Is back and forward as it is really necessary?
I would have done it happily if I'd be convinced that you are truly interested to see and to understand others people work or opinion.

In your case, sorry but I am not going to bother showing any photos for someone who is nothing but a troll. But if you know to use google, I have close to 10,000 photos on the web in various sites from different concerts and festivals. You can find yourself.

And last, I really don't get your point. Let me remind you that even if you are 100% right, lets not forget that this is my job and the tools and methods I use are strictly based on my own decisions and needs and unless you ask questions out of true interest, they are none of your business so please give me a break and go climb on another tree.

MFG

Moti.

--
http://www.pixpix.net
http://www.musicalpix.com (under construction)
 
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I would have done it happily if I'd be convinced that you are truly interested to see and to understand others people work or opinion.

In your case, sorry but I am not going to bother showing any photos for someone who is nothing but a troll. But if you know to use google, I have close to 10,000 photos on the web in various sites from different concerts and festivals. You can find yourself.

And last, I really don't get your point. Let me remind you that even if you are 100% right, lets not forget that this is my job and the tools and methods I use are strictly based on my own decisions and needs and unless you ask questions out of true interest, they are none of your business so please give me a break and go climb on another tree.
Got it ;) !
 

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