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Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera

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I purchased a D600 a few months ago. I love the camera (it does have some dust and oil issues but I can clean the camera's sensor). It is not the replacement for a D300 though.

The sensor when cropped to DX is about the size of a D200 and the dynamic range is great. You could do wonders with either in full frame or DX. My issue is shooting birds and things in the distance. I get more keepers with the D300. I also like the controls on the D300 better. Things like changing between spot, matrix and center weighted metering, picture modes, and the like. I was better able to accomplish those type of changes on the fly with the D300. There also more shutter lag when some settings are active as compared to the same settings with a D300. I've had the D600 long enough that I do not feel it is a user issue as much as a layout issue. These are tools a more advanced photographer work with.

For me those issues are not a deal breaker, as I said - I love the camera. Also I purchased the D600 more for low light, work that would allow a more narrow DOF and some other things full frame does slightly better. If/when a D400 comes out I may make the jump. Though I may wind up with a 7100 now that I do not do as much outdoor sports.

I find it frustrating that there has been the a D700, two D800s, 600, 610 and now Df in full frame without a real change in the D300. The 300s is really the same camera.

John
 
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The problem with a D610 (or even this new DF) for me is that I'd need an 800 f5.6 lens. But if the cost of new lenses for what you do is not too steep it could make a lot of sense to look at FX. I think Nikon will come with a D7200 or D400 in 2014, depending on what Canon does. So I'm (im)patiently waiting.
 
Bajerunner said:
Canon Runours now coming strong on a 7dII (again ;-) ) . Looking like March.

If Canon does, as usual, Nikon D400 wont be far behind....

That'll confuse the issue... sorry.
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That would encourage continued patience ;)

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msu79gt82 said:
DezM said:
*** Question to D610 / D600 owners: Does the 3 frame bracket limitation discourage you to use it or is the sensor that good that bracketing isn't required anymore? And what don't you like about that camera?
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My first DSLR was Nikon's D300 (prior to that I used an OM-2n) bought in Nov '07; having no legacy lenses I jumped headfirst into Nikon's waters with no regrets (at the time). A year ago I got the D600 for the improved low light performance. I am not a pro so many features like the 3 bracket limitation are not important to me. Feature-wise I miss the dedicated ISO button the most. Since I was never impressed with Nikon's dedicated DX lens choices I invested mostly in FX glass anyway (I have the DX 35 and the 16-85), thus going from DX to FX was not a hardship lens-wise.
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You mean you don't like the placement of the ISO button here: http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/d610/back-1200.jpg
msu79gt82 said:
I have NOT been affected by the shutter oil spots, however I am not at all happy with the way Nikon left D600 owners hung-out-to-dry. Lens wise the D600 had me wanting the 16-35 and the new 80-400, but due to Nikon's customer service attitude re the D600/610 as well as the fact that current FX body + FX lens kits tend to be large and heavy (e.g. D600 + 80-400) I have chosen to hold off spending the $3450 and will consider a lightweight kit along the lines of the Olympus E-M1 (definitely eye catching to a 20 year OM-2n user).

I have no regrets buying the D600 (ignoring the D610 debacle) and recently used the D300 on an extending hiking excursion. However I will be very cautious investing in any more Nikon gear until I get a better sense of their future direction.
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Same here. I'd like to know where Nikon is going/releasing so that I know what to do. Been waiting a few years now.

--
Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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Bajerunner said:
*IF* the retro camera is actually an old style SLR with an upgradeable digital back, THAT will be worth it.

That would mean we could buy one camera, same as before, get fast fps with a motor drive and just update the back when needed.

That is the one caveat I see for a retro camera being useful at this stage.
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That sounds interesting. You might be onto something. Remember the theme their using is "Digital Fusion"

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dacrema said:
I purchased a D600 a few months ago. I love the camera (it does have some dust and oil issues but I can clean the camera's sensor). It is not the replacement for a D300 though.

The sensor when cropped to DX is about the size of a D200 and the dynamic range is great. You could do wonders with either in full frame or DX. My issue is shooting birds and things in the distance. I get more keepers with the D300. I also like the controls on the D300 better. Things like changing between spot, matrix and center weighted metering, picture modes, and the like. I was better able to accomplish those type of changes on the fly with the D300. There also more shutter lag when some settings are active as compared to the same settings with a D300. I've had the D600 long enough that I do not feel it is a user issue as much as a layout issue. These are tools a more advanced photographer work with.
Click to expand...
I noticed the controls are different and some settings require an extra step or two. Like changing the AF points from Auto to Single on the rear control. That's gone. On the D610, it requires pressing the AF/M button on the lower left side near lens mount and than rotating the dials on the upper right of body near grip.
dacrema said:
For me those issues are not a deal breaker, as I said - I love the camera. Also I purchased the D600 more for low light, work that would allow a more narrow DOF and some other things full frame does slightly better. If/when a D400 comes out I may make the jump. Though I may wind up with a 7100 now that I do not do as much outdoor sports.

I find it frustrating that there has been the a D700, two D800s, 600, 610 and now Df in full frame without a real change in the D300. The 300s is really the same camera.
Click to expand...
I have issues with that too. You didn't mention the D3000, D3100, D3200, D5000, D5100, D5200 and D5300.

--
Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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The FM3A was a labor of love, not cobbled-together from available stock of spare parts, and while I do not know how quickly the available stock sold back in its day, it shows Nikon has a precedent for a retro-SLR. Though I know less about them, Nikon also released at least one run of their old rangefinder camera, long after the originals had been discontinued.

While is is not retro, Nikon is still makinga few F6 film SLRs each year. This shows that Nikon is still making a "boutique" model for the faithful. Nikon is not completely a mass-market manufacturer.
 
JimPearce said:
The problem with a D610 (or even this new DF) for me is that I'd need an 800 f5.6 lens. But if the cost of new lenses for what you do is not too steep it could make a lot of sense to look at FX. I think Nikon will come with a D7200 or D400 in 2014, depending on what Canon does. So I'm (im)patiently waiting.
Click to expand...
I guess a teleconverter isn't an option for you?

Cost, weight/size is what's holding me back. I don't want to spend too much, and I don't want my rig to get heavier or bigger. Of what I own, the top two lenses on my list below would need to be replaced.

My lens lineup:

Nikon 12-24 f4
Nikon 17-55 f2.8
Sigma 35mm f1.4 (new Art version)
Nikon 85mm G f1.8
Nikon 70-200 VR II f2.8

(Im)patiently waiting as well.....

--
Dez
http://dezsantana.com

sign.jpg
 
Bajerunner said:
*IF* the retro camera is actually an old style SLR with an upgradeable digital back, THAT will be worth it.

That would mean we could buy one camera, same as before, get fast fps with a motor drive and just update the back when needed.

That is the one caveat I see for a retro camera being useful at this stage.
Click to expand...
 
DezM said:
dacrema said:
I purchased a D600 a few months ago. I love the camera (it does have some dust and oil issues but I can clean the camera's sensor). It is not the replacement for a D300 though.

The sensor when cropped to DX is about the size of a D200 and the dynamic range is great. You could do wonders with either in full frame or DX. My issue is shooting birds and things in the distance. I get more keepers with the D300. I also like the controls on the D300 better. Things like changing between spot, matrix and center weighted metering, picture modes, and the like. I was better able to accomplish those type of changes on the fly with the D300. There also more shutter lag when some settings are active as compared to the same settings with a D300. I've had the D600 long enough that I do not feel it is a user issue as much as a layout issue. These are tools a more advanced photographer work with.
Click to expand...
I noticed the controls are different and some settings require an extra step or two. Like changing the AF points from Auto to Single on the rear control. That's gone. On the D610, it requires pressing the AF/M button on the lower left side near lens mount and than rotating the dials on the upper right of body near grip.
Click to expand...
That AF/M button is also on the D4. (And D7000 and D7100 . . . ) So "if" a D400 comes out, I suspect it will have the same AF/M switch . . .
DezM said:
DezM said:
For me those issues are not a deal breaker, as I said - I love the camera. Also I purchased the D600 more for low light, work that would allow a more narrow DOF and some other things full frame does slightly better. If/when a D400 comes out I may make the jump. Though I may wind up with a 7100 now that I do not do as much outdoor sports.

I find it frustrating that there has been the a D700, two D800s, 600, 610 and now Df in full frame without a real change in the D300. The 300s is really the same camera.
Click to expand...
I have issues with that too. You didn't mention the D3000, D3100, D3200, D5000, D5100, D5200 and D5300.

--
Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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Click to expand...


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TacticDesigns said:
DezM said:
dacrema said:
I purchased a D600 a few months ago. I love the camera (it does have some dust and oil issues but I can clean the camera's sensor). It is not the replacement for a D300 though.

The sensor when cropped to DX is about the size of a D200 and the dynamic range is great. You could do wonders with either in full frame or DX. My issue is shooting birds and things in the distance. I get more keepers with the D300. I also like the controls on the D300 better. Things like changing between spot, matrix and center weighted metering, picture modes, and the like. I was better able to accomplish those type of changes on the fly with the D300. There also more shutter lag when some settings are active as compared to the same settings with a D300. I've had the D600 long enough that I do not feel it is a user issue as much as a layout issue. These are tools a more advanced photographer work with.
Click to expand...
I noticed the controls are different and some settings require an extra step or two. Like changing the AF points from Auto to Single on the rear control. That's gone. On the D610, it requires pressing the AF/M button on the lower left side near lens mount and than rotating the dials on the upper right of body near grip.
Click to expand...
That AF/M button is also on the D4. (And D7000 and D7100 . . . ) So "if" a D400 comes out, I suspect it will have the same AF/M switch . . .
Click to expand...
I agree. The D7100 has it as well. I tried it at Best Buy

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DezM said:
TacticDesigns said:
DezM said:
dacrema said:
I purchased a D600 a few months ago. I love the camera (it does have some dust and oil issues but I can clean the camera's sensor). It is not the replacement for a D300 though.

The sensor when cropped to DX is about the size of a D200 and the dynamic range is great. You could do wonders with either in full frame or DX. My issue is shooting birds and things in the distance. I get more keepers with the D300. I also like the controls on the D300 better. Things like changing between spot, matrix and center weighted metering, picture modes, and the like. I was better able to accomplish those type of changes on the fly with the D300. There also more shutter lag when some settings are active as compared to the same settings with a D300. I've had the D600 long enough that I do not feel it is a user issue as much as a layout issue. These are tools a more advanced photographer work with.
Click to expand...
I noticed the controls are different and some settings require an extra step or two. Like changing the AF points from Auto to Single on the rear control. That's gone. On the D610, it requires pressing the AF/M button on the lower left side near lens mount and than rotating the dials on the upper right of body near grip.
Click to expand...
That AF/M button is also on the D4. (And D7000 and D7100 . . . ) So "if" a D400 comes out, I suspect it will have the same AF/M switch . . .
Click to expand...
I agree. The D7100 has it as well. I tried it at Best Buy

--
Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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Click to expand...
Yeah. Same here . . . I sat there probably half an hour playing with the D7000 way back when . . . I live literally across the street from a BestBuy. Literally . . . no word of a lie . . . <grin>

And the switch seemed pretty well thought out . . .

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Hey Dez... I too am waiting for a 300S replacement. For me the D610 is not it

But I shoot mostly with a D700; I can't use the DX mode because it's too small in the viewfinder which doesn't give you 100% view anyway. With the discretionary grip , the fps is fine

That said, if the new cam is FX (with DX) and has a evf that can blow up to the DX size, I can live with that.

Shooting sports - I want the in cam crop and I crop that too. From 16mp to 12mp DX is OK

If it has a silent electronic shutter that's great. You can shoot ballet without bothering people

Mag body would be good to hold long fast glass.

I'm looking forward to more info.

Rags
 
msu79gt82 said:
DezM said:
*** Question to D610 / D600 owners: Does the 3 frame bracket limitation discourage you to use it or is the sensor that good that bracketing isn't required anymore? And what don't you like about that camera?
Click to expand...
My first DSLR was Nikon's D300 (prior to that I used an OM-2n) bought in Nov '07; having no legacy lenses I jumped headfirst into Nikon's waters with no regrets (at the time). A year ago I got the D600 for the improved low light performance. I am not a pro so many features like the 3 bracket limitation are not important to me. Feature-wise I miss the dedicated ISO button the most. Since I was never impressed with Nikon's dedicated DX lens choices I invested mostly in FX glass anyway (I have the DX 35 and the 16-85), thus going from DX to FX was not a hardship lens-wise.

I have NOT been affected by the shutter oil spots, however I am not at all happy with the way Nikon left D600 owners hung-out-to-dry. Lens wise the D600 had me wanting the 16-35 and the new 80-400, but due to Nikon's customer service attitude re the D600/610 as well as the fact that current FX body + FX lens kits tend to be large and heavy (e.g. D600 + 80-400) I have chosen to hold off spending the $3450 and will consider a lightweight kit along the lines of the Olympus E-M1 (definitely eye catching to a 20 year OM-2n user).

I have no regrets buying the D600 (ignoring the D610 debacle) and recently used the D300 on an extending hiking excursion. However I will be very cautious investing in any more Nikon gear until I get a better sense of their future direction.
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This is really the crux of the issue for me, and always has been. It's my loss of faith in Nikon's ability to do the "right thing" and be there for me in the future.

Too many people simply don't want to consider the fact that as a DSLR becomes less and less relevant in the future marketplace, the ONLY thing that Nikon really has going for it are the so-called "niche" markets, ie the markets where nothing else can really compete with what a DSLR will do. The d300 does things that only 1 other maker can compete with. I don't understand why Nikon doesn't pamper those users....

The service issues and other problems with the 600/d800 AF are just more things piling on to my loss of faith. An excellent d400 would go a long way to bolstering my faith and make me spend a lot more money on "new" Nikon gear.

Kerry
 
As much as I like my Nikkor 12-24 f4 on my D7100, a Nikkor 18-35 f3.5-4.5 on a D600 would likely do a better job. The normal zoom is a little tougher to do cheap and light, but both the 24-85 f3.5-4.5 Nikkor and my 28-75 f2.8 Tamron on a D600 will outperform (but not by a lot) the 17-55 f2.8 on a D7100. Add a 50 f1.8 G and you're good to go for about $1200 in lenses. If you're like me this may sound a lot like treading water. But your 35mm, 85mm and 70-200 would really shine on a D610.

Personally I'd rather buy a Sigma 18-35 f1.8. I have absolutely no use for this lens, but I love it! :-D

--
Jim
 
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DezM said:
dacrema said:
...
I find it frustrating that there has been the a D700, two D800s, 600, 610 and now Df in full frame without a real change in the D300. The 300s is really the same camera.
Click to expand...
I have issues with that too. You didn't mention the D3000, D3100, D3200, D5000, D5100, D5200 and D5300.
Click to expand...
And you forget the D7000 and D7100.


JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
 
Kerry Pierce said:
Too many people simply don't want to consider the fact that as a DSLR becomes less and less relevant in the future marketplace, the ONLY thing that Nikon really has going for it are the so-called "niche" markets, ie the markets where nothing else can really compete with what a DSLR will do. The d300 does things that only 1 other maker can compete with. I don't understand why Nikon doesn't pamper those users....
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They are waiting to see if other players will get in, like Pentax.


JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
 
JimPearce said:
As much as I like my Nikkor 12-24 f4 on my D7100, a Nikkor 18-35 f3.5-4.5 on a D600 would likely do a better job. The normal zoom is a little tougher to do cheap and light, but both the 24-85 f3.5-4.5 Nikkor and my 28-75 f2.8 Tamron on a D600 will outperform (but not by a lot) the 17-55 f2.8 on a D7100. Add a 50 f1.8 G and you're good to go for about $1200 in lenses. If you're like me this may sound a lot like treading water. But your 35mm, 85mm and 70-200 would really shine on a D610.

Personally I'd rather buy a Sigma 18-35 f1.8. I have absolutely no use for this lens, but I love it!
Click to expand...
Was looking at the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 but inconsistent AF is discouraging:


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Dez
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