Autofocus issue after firmware update ( D800 )

Zorpie · Oct 27, 2013

Hi,

Having just read this thread and the conclusions (of some subscribers) I just tested my D800 and SB900 (on the hotshoe) and could not replicate the problem. The AF (using the red focus assist from the SB900) was perfect every time. My D800 came with the latest firmware updates incidentally and I didn't need to do any upgrades.

Just my two-pennyworth.

Regards,

Richard

rgolub · Oct 27, 2013

OK, now that this thread has wandered into SB-900 AF assist lamp color temps and other esoteric things (interesting, actually), let me return to the thrilling days of last week to answer one question that the OP presented:

Yes, you can reflash the firmware to the previous state. Nikon keeps the old firmware around (look on the web site). I did this early on when the question of what exactly the new firmware did or did not do came around.

Basically, you just download the old version and follow the exact same instructions. It's a bit of a hassle - takes something like 20 minutes so it's best to think about what you're concerned about, test the new firmware first, then reflash and do the exact same thing to compare. For FSM's sake, use good technique like a tripod and reasonable shutter speeds and consistent light to minimize variables.

Keep track of your results. Let us know.

imAvalanche · Oct 27, 2013

rgolub said:
rgolub wrote:

OK, now that this thread has wandered into SB-900 AF assist lamp color temps and other esoteric things (interesting, actually), let me return to the thrilling days of last week to answer one question that the OP presented:
Yes, you can reflash the firmware to the previous state. Nikon keeps the old firmware around (look on the web site). I did this early on when the question of what exactly the new firmware did or did not do came around.

Basically, you just download the old version and follow the exact same instructions. It's a bit of a hassle - takes something like 20 minutes so it's best to think about what you're concerned about, test the new firmware first, then reflash and do the exact same thing to compare. For FSM's sake, use good technique like a tripod and reasonable shutter speeds and consistent light to minimize variables.

Keep track of your results. Let us know.

Scott Oberle · Oct 27, 2013

Be very careful...the first paragraph on Nikon's firmware update page sez updates are not reversable, except by the Nikon service dept.

Scott O.

Ernie Misner · Oct 27, 2013

rgolub said:
rgolub wrote:

OK, now that this thread has wandered into SB-900 AF assist lamp color temps and other esoteric things (interesting, actually), let me return to the thrilling days of last week to answer one question that the OP presented:
Yes, you can reflash the firmware to the previous state. Nikon keeps the old firmware around (look on the web site). I did this early on when the question of what exactly the new firmware did or did not do came around.

Basically, you just download the old version and follow the exact same instructions. It's a bit of a hassle - takes something like 20 minutes so it's best to think about what you're concerned about, test the new firmware first, then reflash and do the exact same thing to compare. For FSM's sake, use good technique like a tripod and reasonable shutter speeds and consistent light to minimize variables.

Keep track of your results. Let us know.

olyflyer · Oct 28, 2013

But if it is "only" that then it should be fairly easy to fix for any DIY people, by removing the red filter from the LEDs and replacing with clear plexiglass. I hate the on-camera LED since it doesn't cover the whole focal length range and that it's position makes the use of hood impossible. Another disadvantage of the in-camera LED is that it only supports the center AF area, or Auto area selection mode.

Anyway, I will try to spend some time with this, document it and also contact Nikon. I regard this being a real serious issue, which definitely renders the use of that new AF module useless in future cameras, or if it is fixable through firmware, it should be fixed ASAP even in the D800.

In fact, just a few days ago I was out shooting an event and came home with a bunch of badly focused images, which I thought was my own fault, but now I know that the problem was the flash AF assist. Every image which needed the red light was OOF and useless, which I found very strange but not spent many thoughts about it since I blamed myself and since I had enough usable images anyway. Now that I know about this issue it is a different thing all together, even though I don't use the flash too often, it certainly needs a fix somehow. I will also have a look at the SB-900, maybe there is a possible mod to do at that level, perhaps by adding an external LED light, or by changing the red filter to clear one. A DIY solution is not always beautiful, personally I don't care, if it works, it works, that's the most important.

Tommot1965 said:
Tommot1965 wrote:

yes its a bummer..I did contact Nikon about it..but that went nowhere...so now I disable the flash af assist and use the on camera light..PITA ...yep my D300s was fine as was my D700...as I said I think its the new Phase detect that the D800 uses and light temperature...my pentax K5 had that same issues.....Falconeyes ( falk) did a indepth study of that ( pentax af module) and found it back focused as the light temperature changed...one reason why it back focused under Tungsten lighting and that cameras ( K5) onboard AF assist light would not come on in these low light conditions..at least the D800 focus assist light does ..so yes its a very imperfect world not only with Nikon but other camera makers too

Tommot1965 said:

olyflyer wrote:

Tommot1965 said:

olyflyer wrote:

Tommot1965 said:

Tommot1965 wrote:

I think its more to do with the colour temperature of the Flash assist light over the camera white light ....I can reproduce the problem on my D800 over and over again when using the red focus assist light from the flash...if I disable that and use the built in camera light the problem goes away

I used to shoot with a Penat K5 that also had issues with different colour temperatures and AF accuracy ..

Click to expand...

So you mean that the red light causes focus error ALL the time with ANY lens? Because that's not what John said. I have used the AF assist several times and not seen any focus issues. I'd find it very strange if it caused problem with the D800 because I have used the same flash for several years on the D300s and had no problem with it. Nowadays I don't use the flash that much, but if what you are saying is true then it is definitely time to contact Nikon because that sounds serious and easily repeatable.

Click to expand...

Tested and confirmed. You are right. The red AF assist causes severe focus errors with the D800, no matter if the flash sits perfectly on the camera or is offset a little bit. I can't offset the flash on the camera to cause the AF assist light to be outside the focus area, to do that I used a cable, but even without the cable the AF is messed up if the red AF assist is used. Very strange, I never had these problems with the D300s and the only lens I didn't have with that camera was the 24-120. I tested with the 24-120/4, 50/1.4G and the 105/2.8GVR. The white AF LED works fine but the lens hoods are causing vignetting so it is not usable all the time. Anyway, I will not test more, for me that's enough.

Click to expand...

olyflyer · Oct 28, 2013

Tommot1965 said:
Tommot1965 wrote:

some people have said that the SB800 and SB600 didnt have the problem when using the D800...might be worth a try if you know anyone that has the older flashes

I don't know anyone with those old flashes and if that's true then it is even worse. Why would those make a difference unless they have a different red filter? Anyway, I hope someone comes back with some test results.

If I get more time next weekend I will do some more tests with every lens to see if it makes a difference. I will also try to remove the red filter from my SB-900 to see if that helps.

olyflyer · Oct 28, 2013

Zorpie said:
Zorpie wrote:

Hi,

Having just read this thread and the conclusions (of some subscribers) I just tested my D800 and SB900 (on the hotshoe) and could not replicate the problem. The AF (using the red focus assist from the SB900) was perfect every time. My D800 came with the latest firmware updates incidentally and I didn't need to do any upgrades.

Just my two-pennyworth.

Interesting, but with which lens and aperture? I also have the latest firmware and just the other day I even updated with the latest lens distortion data, so my D800 is definitely up to date as well. I never had any AF issues and had mine for over a year now.

I took a total of about 160 images before I drew any conclusions. The lenses I used was the 24-120/4, the 105/2.8GVR and the 50/1.4G. All those work perfectly otherwise but all have focus issues when the SB-900 red AF assist LED turns on. Not 100% of the time, but very very high number, well over 50% so it is definitely an issue. Switching off the red LED gives the 90-99% AF accuracy immediately back to all my lenses, which is what I am used to. I shot an A3 size test chart from portrait range, so fairly close. This is what's in my opinion important because at close range DOF is narrow and it is easier to see deficiencies. The light was weak to make sure that the red LED is turned on every time, yet the light was enough to focus also without the AF assist, once it was turned off in the flash, to make sure that the test reflected identical conditions with and without AF assist, no light change.

The D800 is pretty good at focusing in low light, so it is not a big issue most of the times, but there are occasions when the light isn't that low but the contrast is, so the AF assist is needed. The problem is that if the AF is messed up when the AF assist is turned on, then it can actually mess up images which could have been taken without AF assist, because there is an overlap in light conditions where you can use the AF even without AF assist but the AF assist is turned on anyway.

olyflyer · Oct 28, 2013

rgolub said:
rgolub wrote:

OK, now that this thread has wandered into SB-900 AF assist lamp color temps and other esoteric things (interesting, actually), let me return to the thrilling days of last week to answer one question that the OP presented:
Yes, you can reflash the firmware to the previous state. Nikon keeps the old firmware around (look on the web site). I did this early on when the question of what exactly the new firmware did or did not do came around.

Basically, you just download the old version and follow the exact same instructions. It's a bit of a hassle - takes something like 20 minutes so it's best to think about what you're concerned about, test the new firmware first, then reflash and do the exact same thing to compare. For FSM's sake, use good technique like a tripod and reasonable shutter speeds and consistent light to minimize variables.

Have you really downgraded your camera? I mean, is it really possible to do? Isn't the old release identified and update aborted automatically with a message that you already have a new firmware and that there is no update done?

I'd be interested to reset my camera to factory firmware state to test the flash AF assist issue, but can't find the original firmware. Could you be so kind to post a link to the old firmware? I acn only find the latest one, and that's already in my camera.

olyflyer · Oct 29, 2013

olyflyer said:
But if it is "only" that then it should be fairly easy to fix for any DIY people, by removing the red filter from the LEDs and replacing with clear plexiglass.

It is easier done than I thought it would be. The red filter over the three LEDs are easy to pop off, last night just before going to bed I popped the filter off my SB-900 but it was too late to test the camera with it. I will do it tonight. Anyway, the three LEDs are covered with three huge lenses, it will be interesting to see how strong those are without that thick red filter in front of them. If the camera works without the red filter on the flash then I'll try to change the colour temperature by adding for example yellow to see if that helps. The red filter can be replaced quite easily with another colour, but the filter has some prism pattern as well in it, which is not easy to make at home, at least not if one wants to have the same pattern.

Anyway said:
Tommot1965, post: 52414908, member: 478561"]
yes its a bummer..I did contact Nikon about it..but that went nowhere...so now I disable the flash af assist and use the on camera light..PITA ...yep my D300s was fine as was my D700...as I said I think its the new Phase detect that the D800 uses and light temperature...my pentax K5 had that same issues.....Falconeyes ( falk) did a indepth study of that ( pentax af module) and found it back focused as the light temperature changed...one reason why it back focused under Tungsten lighting and that cameras ( K5) onboard AF assist light would not come on in these low light conditions..at least the D800 focus assist light does ..so yes its a very imperfect world not only with Nikon but other camera makers too

Click to expand...

I have so far not seen any focus problems under tungsten light or any other artificial light, this is the first time I notice that something is definitely not right with the D800 AF module, if it is the AF module and not something else causing the AF error. If it is the AF module then I think Nikon has a serious problem to fix with the new AF module. As I understand, this is the same module as the D4, hopefully somebody with D4/SB-900 can test if this is a problem with that camera as well.
[/QUOTE]

Tommot1965 · Oct 29, 2013

I tried mine again last night with the SB700 and it was a hit and miss affair..but mostly OOF images..ill give it a shot of removing the filter and see if that fixes it.....have you tried the D800 under tungsten using the center af point at about ev2 or less..and without the AF assist light ?

Zorpie · Oct 29, 2013

Hi Olyflyer,

I tried the test with the 16-35mm and the 24-70mm Nikon lenses - wide open and at F16 and deliberately aimed at a dark corner of the room probably about 6 to 8 feet away. The D800 focussed perfectly (with or without the red focus assist on the SB900). I also attempted to move the SB900 about on the hotshoe (not that there was any great movement detected) to see if I could replicate the problem - but I couldn't. Maybe I need to do more exhaustive tests with low light subjects further away from the camera. But as far as I can see so far - it all works fine and AF is fine. I will admit that I am slightly bothered by the issue and comments on this thread so now I tend to double check images where the SB900 focus assist has kicked in. Not that I do a lot of low light work. But I will keep an eye on this and report back if I come across any issues in the future.

Regards,

Richard

Tommot1965 · Oct 29, 2013

after chasing this rabbit a bit further down the rabbit hole I picked this up in a google search

" Sorry Cyber I am not clear by your reference to "center point"

The SB-900’s AF-Assist Illuminator sometimes called the WIDE ANGEL AF Assist Illuminator-supports the dynamic-area AF system.

So if your are only using a single point, it might not work

The camera’s focus mode should be set to S (Single Servo AF with focus priority), AF-A, or" AF.

POSTED 2 YEARS AGO #

so I thought Id look at the SB700 manual..and pages E 27 it says that the SB700 is compatible with the multipoint AF ..so I changed my D800 to single servo AUTO..and hey presto no back focus..up till now all my testing has been with single point AF using AFS

Tommot1965 · Oct 29, 2013

are you using single AF point or multipoint Auto ?

Zorpie said:
Hi Olyflyer,

I tried the test with the 16-35mm and the 24-70mm Nikon lenses - wide open and at F16 and deliberately aimed at a dark corner of the room probably about 6 to 8 feet away. The D800 focussed perfectly (with or without the red focus assist on the SB900). I also attempted to move the SB900 about on the hotshoe (not that there was any great movement detected) to see if I could replicate the problem - but I couldn't. Maybe I need to do more exhaustive tests with low light subjects further away from the camera. But as far as I can see so far - it all works fine and AF is fine. I will admit that I am slightly bothered by the issue and comments on this thread so now I tend to double check images where the SB900 focus assist has kicked in. Not that I do a lot of low light work. But I will keep an eye on this and report back if I come across any issues in the future.

Regards,

Richard

--
http://www.pbase.com/zorpie
If it seems too good to be true - then it isn't. If you cannot believe your eyes - then don't.

olyflyer · Oct 29, 2013

Tommot1965 said:
I tried mine again last night with the SB700 and it was a hit and miss affair..but mostly OOF images..

Well, that's bad luck, but on the other hand, if true it is even more serious. The SB-700 is one of the latest flash, so it is not acceptable if it causes problems.

Tommot1965 said:
ill give it a shot of removing the filter and see if that fixes it.....

I don't know the SB-700, but it is easy to remove from the SB-900, just use a thin, small screw driver, remove the external power cover, push the screw driver in under the filter and by carefully bending the screwdriver the filter pops up, allowing more space to move around with the screw driver from all the three sides, lifting the filter up just enough so that it can be removed completely without damage. Just be careful not to push the screw driver too hard to avoid damaging the LEDs under the filter. The SB-900 contains two IR LED's as well (at least that's what I think those white LEDs are) so if you have those as well be extra careful, those might be easier to damage since they are at the edges.

Tommot1965 said:
have you tried the D800 under tungsten using the center af point at about ev2 or less..and without the AF assist light ?

I have used the D800 under many conditions but never noticed any AF issues. I seldom used the flash with it, so maybe that's why I never noticed this issue. The first time I have seen that something was strangely wrong was at an event a few weeks ago, as I mentioned before.

olyflyer · Oct 29, 2013

Zorpie said:
Hi Olyflyer,

I tried the test with the 16-35mm and the 24-70mm Nikon lenses - wide open and at F16 and deliberately aimed at a dark corner of the room probably about 6 to 8 feet away. The D800 focussed perfectly (with or without the red focus assist on the SB900). I also attempted to move the SB900 about on the hotshoe (not that there was any great movement detected) to see if I could replicate the problem - but I couldn't. Maybe I need to do more exhaustive tests with low light subjects further away from the camera. But as far as I can see so far - it all works fine and AF is fine. I will admit that I am slightly bothered by the issue and comments on this thread so now I tend to double check images where the SB900 focus assist has kicked in. Not that I do a lot of low light work. But I will keep an eye on this and report back if I come across any issues in the future.

Regards,

Richard

Hi Richard,

If you are doing any tests then you must move close to your target, not more than 2 meters, perhaps even closer, don't use wide angle and absolutely no small apertures, use the widest you have on your lens, but you must be sure that the lens works well in good light. I would not bother testing the 16-35, since that lens is too wide. The 24-70 is interesting between 50 and 70mm. Your ambient light must be at a level that the AF assist always kicks in if activated yet you can use the camera without it as well. You must make sure that the target is a "good" one, i.e. giving normally very close to 100% of the time accurate focus. You must use the SAME target all the time, not just randomly shoot around and you must make sure that you manually offset the focus between shots. You should NOT just look at the focus confirmation LED but take actual images and unless you are absolutely clear over the sharpness, you must check the images in your computer. Also, just taking a few images proofs nothing, the number of images must be quite high before concluding anything. Make sure your tests are repeatable so if you do any change you can verify any difference in results. Use AF-S and only single center AF point, that is the best point and every single image, or pretty much every one of them, should be in clear and accurate focus. Don't "feather" the trigger, set focus priority and push it all the way down at once. That way the camera takes an image as soon as the focus is confirmed and it should not confirm focus unless the AF sensor is telling it that it is OK.

Zorpie · Oct 29, 2013

Hi Tommot1965,

Just put my SB700 on the D800 and tried it - using AFS and AFC. Now I have replicated the problem !! I was using AFC previously. Using AFS and the red focus assist from the SB700 I can clearly see a back focus issue which is not there using AFC (and no focus assist). :-( I have never had the previous firmware (the D800 came with the latest firmware installed) so I cannot say whether the issue has occurred from a firmward upgrade.

Thanks for pointing out how to replicate the issue. Now I am aware that it also exists on my D800 I'll need to be careful - the OP and other subscribers to this thread are clearly saying this issue did not exist before the firmware upgrade. So are Nikon aware and will they address it - is the next question.

Regards,

Richard

Zorpie · Oct 29, 2013

Hi Olyflyer,

Thanks - yes, see my previous post. I have now replicated the problem - more or less doing what you have said (before I read your post) and can confirm - the problem does also exist on my D800 with the latest firmware.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Richard

Tommot1965 · Oct 29, 2013

The problem was there from day one for me..camera purchased 12.12.13...but like i said in the previous post...when using afs with auto rather than single shot the camera will focus correctly. .im now only seeing the issue using afs single focus point with the sb 700

UhZorpie said:
Hi Tommot1965,

Just put my SB700 on the D800 and tried it - using AFS and AFC. Now I have replicated the problem !! I was using AFC previously. Using AFS and the red focus assist from the SB700 I can clearly see a back focus issue which is not there using AFC (and no focus assist). :-( I have never had the previous firmware (the D800 came with the latest firmware installed) so I cannot say whether the issue has occurred from a firmward upgrade.

Thanks for pointing out how to replicate the issue. Now I am aware that it also exists on my D800 I'll need to be careful - the OP and other subscribers to this thread are clearly saying this issue did not exist before the firmware upgrade. So are Nikon aware and will they address it - is the next question.

Regards,

Richard

--
http://www.pbase.com/zorpie
If it seems too good to be true - then it isn't. If you cannot believe your eyes - then don't.

olyflyer · Oct 29, 2013

Zorpie said:
Hi Tommot1965,

Just put my SB700 on the D800 and tried it - using AFS and AFC. Now I have replicated the problem !! I was using AFC previously. Using AFS and the red focus assist from the SB700 I can clearly see a back focus issue which is not there using AFC (and no focus assist). :-( I have never had the previous firmware (the D800 came with the latest firmware installed) so I cannot say whether the issue has occurred from a firmward upgrade.

Thanks for pointing out how to replicate the issue. Now I am aware that it also exists on my D800 I'll need to be careful - the OP and other subscribers to this thread are clearly saying this issue did not exist before the firmware upgrade. So are Nikon aware and will they address it - is the next question.

Regards,

Richard

I am not sure that is the case at all. At least I am not convinced that it is connected to firmware update at all, more likely the AF sensor and my guess is that the problem was always the same. I would think that the image in the OP had the AF assist inactive for that image. It looks as the ambient light is too strong for the AF assist to turn on, and without AF assist, there is no problem as far as I know. Of course, the AF sensor might be affected by firmware update, so I could be wrong, which is why I'd like to see some clear instruction on how to remove firmware updates. SO far no news, I don't know how to, and as far as I can see, there is no official Nikon information about that.

Autofocus issue after firmware update ( D800 )

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