Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera

I never base my decision on which gear to take with me on the neighborhood. I base my decision on what my situation will be. When I go to Times Square to photography my lady or grab some candids, I'll take the D300 & 35mm f/1.4 or if I want to go light, I'll take instead the NEX-6 and 50mm f1/.8.

Waterfront night shots, I'd take the D300, 17-55mm or 70-200mm f/2.8 (depending on how far my subject is) and tripod with remote, etc. I don't worry about crime. I'm always aware of my surroundings and can take care of myself, if need be. I'm born & raised here in NYC and feel 100% comfortable taking whatever gear to wherever.

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Dez doesn't need FX. He can make great photos with a potato if he wanted to. :D
Let's wait and see what this here retro cam has to offer.
I'm sure we'll all be just as disappointed if they never released such a thing.
Would be pretty hard with a potato or an egg, for that matter :D
Once again, you're too modest.

You seriously underestimate yourself.

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T, you sure know how to make me laugh...........HARD :P

But I couldn't shoot with that. It says "Canon"

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Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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What'd you want it to say, fanboy? "Idaho" ?
 
Dez doesn't need FX. He can make great photos with a potato if he wanted to. :D
Let's wait and see what this here retro cam has to offer.
I'm sure we'll all be just as disappointed if they never released such a thing.
Would be pretty hard with a potato or an egg, for that matter :D
Once again, you're too modest.

You seriously underestimate yourself.

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T, you sure know how to make me laugh...........HARD :P

But I couldn't shoot with that. It says "Canon"

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Dez
What'd you want it to say, fanboy? "Idaho" ?
Yes, "Idaho". Authentic ;)

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judging from dezm's excellent pictures, his subject matter would do well with a d800
What exactly do you think FF would add to Dezm images? Better hi-ISO? More depth of field? More DR? And how would that improve his picture taking abilities?

There is no magic to FF.
David & JC. I don't like the size, weight or price point of the D800. I want to go lighter, not bigger and the D800 is priced out of my budget. Plus, I don't need 36 megapixels. 16MP to 24MP is enough.

I believe a D300 update will provide better high ISO (and base ISO) as well as increased dynamic range where I can bracket less in my sets.
So then, how much would you be willing to pay for such a camera? If you are a professional, and it is a tool to make you money, what manner of ROI would you need for the capability that a D400 would give you? For a pro, is it really a question of the cost of the camera? Would it matter if it cost $3000? or more? It is just another business expense that needs to be amortized.
Conrad, it's not just the price of the body. It's also replacing lenses and taking a loss on them. It all adds up.

Again, I don't want/need the extra expense and I don't want my rig to get heavier.

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Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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The FX lens issue is one that I also have a problem with as well. I guess the back of my mind thought process with all this is that if you cut away all the "retro" talk what we are looking at is basically the long awaited D700 replacement, a bit thinner than the D700 due to the fact that the top plate LCD will be replaced with direct readout/control dials for all main camera operation. Using the D4 sensor with the addition of on sensor PDAF should give excellent image quality and great focus capability.

I guess in my mind, it would not be too much of a stretch to add on sensor PDAF to a D7100 chip, a larger buffer and install it in the DF body for our much long awaited D300 replacement. A battery pack similar in size to the MD4 motor drive used on the F3 should provide the power necessary for high speed shooting.

It just maybe the reason that the D400 has been such a long time in coming. Or then again I am probably dreaming once more... as always someone will find a reason why something cannot be done, but I somehow think that if Nikon management were to let their engineers work the issues, that they could be solved.

Hope all this works out for you!

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Conrad
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Show Low, Arizona
 
I understand the frustration of those that want a fast camera with tough built and APS-C sensor for reach. But you are basically a WA shooter that likes great tonal range. An FF camera that dispenses with most of the extras of the digital age could work very well you. I don't think Nikon will actually build a retro body, it'll certainly have a good amount of modern flexibility, in a tighter body and excellent build.

What do you think?
Did you see the link Renato? Nikon released videos of what will probably be a retro styled camera called DF. Other camera makers are making retro bodies and Nikon thinks it should do the same. I find this strategy stupid. It's a waste of time and resources. Firs the "F" up the left AF issues on the D800. Then they had the oily sensor debacle in the D600. They screw all D600 owners by releasing a D610, devaluing the D600 and now this retro junk.

I met Joe McNally at the PDN Photo Plus Expo yesterday. I should have asked him.

As for FF, I want to keep the size & weight (both lenses & body) down. Same or lighter than the D300 is my preference as well as the price point.

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Dez
Why then the D7100 isn't enough? I think you don't need the deeper buffer or heavier/larger body of the D300 line. The only thing the D7000/D7100 miss is speed and buffer. IQ is better, especially the D7000.
I own a Sony NEX-6 mirrorless which uses the same sensor as the D7000/D7100. I know of the IQ. It is very good. Part of the reason why I don't want it is because "I sort of have it" and I want the build & hardware controls of the D300.

I'm being patient Renato. My D300 works for me & I like it but my patience is growing thin after this impending announcement of a "retro" SLR by Nikon.

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Dez
Like Renato, I was also puzzled why D7100 does not meet your needs. Until you explicitly mentioned above that your needs are somewhat being satisfied with lightweight Sony, and the fact that you are looking for a D300 like controls in a future body it was highly unclear. This is quite different for others who have been speaking on your behalf based on their own DX needs.

One question, what if D400 is a 900gm gorilla (75gm more than D300) and its controls are different from D300? Or what if it is just a D300 with 24mp at 2k?

My only peeve with Nikon is they are focusing heavily on dethroning Canon. Stupidly this is causing QA issues, and Canon to indirectly win since Canon are currently incapable of releasing a compelling 7DII product that matches current Nikon's DX sensors and robust Nikon AF. This is inturn causing frustration in the Nikon prosumer DX camp. But as a counter argument, Nikon has filled the gaps in the lenses and bodies that were often bought in anti-nikon debates, eg. 80-400mm lens.

As far as DH is concerned, why not? I seriously doubt that it is delaying D400 in any way. Slowness in future DSLR sales is bound to happen and Nikon has to focus on diversifying into niche areas where there could be potential revenue to sustain (just like the film days). I also strongly believe that pro-DX will not last beyond 2 generations, but by then what will happen to the current DX shooters that are staunchly anti-FX? I don't know.
The D7100 is not built the same as the D300. Not as robust. No AF-ON button. My D300 can bracket 9 frames. The D7100 does 5 frames but it can at 3 stops in between, which is nice. I understand the dynamic range is better, so bracketing may be unimportant. No CF on the D7100 (what do I do with my cards?). Different battery, etc.

I like the 24MP. I used it for 1 1/2 years in the NEX-7. Sweet IQ and dynamic range.

Lastly, I don't want a D7100 because I know a Dxxx is coming. And I can wait, as I already have a SLR that works.

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Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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judging from dezm's excellent pictures, his subject matter would do well with a d800
What exactly do you think FF would add to Dezm images? Better hi-ISO? More depth of field? More DR? And how would that improve his picture taking abilities?

There is no magic to FF.
David & JC. I don't like the size, weight or price point of the D800. I want to go lighter, not bigger and the D800 is priced out of my budget. Plus, I don't need 36 megapixels. 16MP to 24MP is enough.

I believe a D300 update will provide better high ISO (and base ISO) as well as increased dynamic range where I can bracket less in my sets.
So then, how much would you be willing to pay for such a camera? If you are a professional, and it is a tool to make you money, what manner of ROI would you need for the capability that a D400 would give you? For a pro, is it really a question of the cost of the camera? Would it matter if it cost $3000? or more? It is just another business expense that needs to be amortized.
Conrad, it's not just the price of the body. It's also replacing lenses and taking a loss on them. It all adds up.

Again, I don't want/need the extra expense and I don't want my rig to get heavier.

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Dez
The FX lens issue is one that I also have a problem with as well. I guess the back of my mind thought process with all this is that if you cut away all the "retro" talk what we are looking at is basically the long awaited D700 replacement, a bit thinner than the D700 due to the fact that the top plate LCD will be replaced with direct readout/control dials for all main camera operation. Using the D4 sensor with the addition of on sensor PDAF should give excellent image quality and great focus capability.

I guess in my mind, it would not be too much of a stretch to add on sensor PDAF to a D7100 chip, a larger buffer and install it in the DF body for our much long awaited D300 replacement. A battery pack similar in size to the MD4 motor drive used on the F3 should provide the power necessary for high speed shooting.

It just maybe the reason that the D400 has been such a long time in coming. Or then again I am probably dreaming once more... as always someone will find a reason why something cannot be done, but I somehow think that if Nikon management were to let their engineers work the issues, that they could be solved.

Hope all this works out for you!
And to you as well Conrad. I'm being patient as usual. The Sony NEX cameras I own have held me over for a bit.

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You would disagree with him anyway. As it is I disagree with Dez on this camera. I think it could be a good seller - in FX terms - and could feature some innovative technology.
I'd like to be wrong Jim about the retro DF. If it's new tech in an old style body and if it IS our D300 replacement, I could care less what they call it.

I don't want it to be heavier or costly.

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Why would you even want to be shooting an APS-C camera these days when the majority of photographers have moved on to FF? Dramatically better low-light ability and better DOF control are two no-brainer reasons to use FF over APS-C.
Should one choose a camera by picking one they need, or picking one everyone else is using that doesn't have what they need? All the new FF cameras have slow burst rates and of course heavier + more expensive glass- exactly what DezM DOESN'T want.
If you shoot Nikon, you know that the glass for DX and FX is not dramatically different in size or price. Primes like the 28 f/1.8G, 50 f/1.8G or 85 f/1.8G are not heavy or expensive. DX UWA zooms are like the 12-24 f/4 are as expensive and as large as FF UWA zooms like the 18-35 3.5-5.6. Same for the 17-55 f2.8 and 24-70 f/2.8.

As far as weight, if the OP were concerned about weight, he'd likely look at one of the APS-C mirrorless cameras like the Fujifilm X cameras. But I'm guessing he prefers DSLR ergonomics and F-mount. But the differences in size and weight between FX and DX are minimal, and since many DX use FF lenses like the 70-200 f/2.8 VR and since many DX consumer and prosumer zooms can be as expensive as FX zooms, there are no dramatic difference in prices.
Stop projecting YOUR wants onto him.
I'm not projecting anything on anyone, surely you are joking?

If you look at the OPs website there are very few, if any, images that he couldn't have made with 6 fps vs 8 fps. In fact there are very few sports/action/wildlife images at all, AFAIK. There are tons of wedding / event type images, engagement portraits and some nighttime cityscapes, all of which would benefit far more from the superior IQ of a FF DSLR than another APS-C DSLR.
As for the D400, it's true there is a hole in Nikon's lineup, but I am guessing there aren't enough DezM's to support such an endeavor.
Only time will tell, but based on the OPs website, to get all worked up over an extra 2 fps vs the D7100 or buffer size is ludicrous. The D7100 is a class leading DX camera, and there is pretty much NOTHING you cannot do with a D7100 that you can with a D300s or K3.

If I were the OP, I'd either buy a D7100 and work around any perceived inadequacies he felt it had vs the D300s, or I'd stop messing around with APS-C DSLRs and buy a D610, a camera that will make the biggest improvement for the types of images he makes out of any of these cameras.

If a D400 is announced, it will easy to sell a lightly used D7100 or D610 on Ebay and purchase a D400, if he still felt he needed such a camera. I'm guessing that after he shoots with either camera, but in particular the D610, he won't want to let it out of his hands.
Marike6, I'd like to be able to shoot wildlife or sports without limitations. Although, that isn't my style photography, who's to say it won't be in the near future.

FPS & buffers aren't my requirements. A D300 style body at 16MP to 24MP with greater dynamic range, clean high & low ISO, and priced similar to the D300 are my requirements. As well as not impacting letting go of Nikon lenses I'm fond of.

I will tell you that I handled a D610 today for about 45 minutes. I went through each button and the Menu.......I like it. It's about the same size and weight as my D300. The IQ was great. This is my alternative choice if a D400 never comes about.

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Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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Dez,

Other, obviously, than "I don't want one" :-).....if you felt that way about a D610, and want to stay DX, why NOT a D7100? They're darn near identical (yes, slightly larger and a bigger sensor).

I understand the buffer issue, but beyond that, now that I have around 30,000 frames on one....I often wonder if many people's feelings about the build quality of the D7100 aren't more that it just feels different. Mine has proven every bit as durable as my Dxxx cameras in actual use (MY use..I understand that's not everyone).

If you ever want to get together and really shoot a D7100 (or even borrow one), I'm only about 45 minutes South of you. Hit me up by PM.

John
 
Dez,

Other, obviously, than "I don't want one" :-).....if you felt that way about a D610, and want to stay DX, why NOT a D7100? They're darn near identical (yes, slightly larger and a bigger sensor).

I understand the buffer issue, but beyond that, now that I have around 30,000 frames on one....I often wonder if many people's feelings about the build quality of the D7100 aren't more that it just feels different. Mine has proven every bit as durable as my Dxxx cameras in actual use (MY use..I understand that's not everyone).

If you ever want to get together and really shoot a D7100 (or even borrow one), I'm only about 45 minutes South of you. Hit me up by PM.

John
PM sent. Thank you :)

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Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
I couldn't agree more.

I can't imagine what their plan is by not releasing the D400 by now. And while I used to give Nikon the benefit of the doubt on their reasons for the delay, I am starting to lose trust in them.

If they've discontinued the Pro-DX line and screw us over by saying the D7xxx line is the replacement, they should at least make some sort of official statement.
I've said this before. Make an announcement. Tell us. I have $ to spend & give to Nikon but I won't be forced to buy FF if I don't want/have to.

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The new Nikon DF may be a game changer for Nikon the way the Fujifilm X100 was for Fujifilm, for all we know. But calling the Nikon DF a "waste of time" before it is even announced is just silly.
Call me silly then. Unless the DF is a testbed for technologies to use in a D400, it is a "waste of time".
"Waste of time" to YOU. In case you haven't visited Nikon FX forum or Nikon Rumors, the DF is the ONLY thing anybody is talking about.

But it's a funny thing about companies like Nikon who offer multiple camera lines: there is something for everybody. One man's BS "waste of time" is another man's new camera.

For me, the last thing I need is a new camera, but an Nikon FM inspired Nikon FF is far from a waste of time.
 
If you read my replies in this thread, you would understand why I don't want to go FF. Try that before accusing me of contradicting myself.
But you say above, "Sony has me looking in their direction. At least they are innovating and making the market look interesting." That's a contradiction because the new Sony is a FF. It might not have any lenses but the ones it does have a quite large.
I know EXACTLY what I want and waiting for Nikon to deliver. Not some BS retro DF camera, D3000, 5000, 5300 etc.
Funny because that "BS retro DF camera" seems to have brought the Nikon users over on NikonRumors and FX Forum to a frenzy of excitement in anticipation. People are watching teaser videos, taking still frames from the video to get a glimpse of the DF....
I have no praise for the A7. I own a NEX-6 and like it. I like that Sony is innovating.
The implication being that Nikon is NOT innovating which of course is ridiculous considering the D800E, D7100, Nikon 1, the first mirrorless with PDAF on sensor and a still unmatched 60 fps, all the great new optics, et al.

No offense, all I was saying that looking at your website (and I'm guessing few other posters here took the time to check out all of the galleries on your website but I could be wrong) and the cameras that will provide the most benefit for the types of subjects that you seem to typically shoot will be in DX, a D7100 and in FX, a D610. But perhaps I'm missing where you've told us about the sports or birding photography you are interested.

Anyway, Nice website. I do hope that Nikon releases something of interest to you. All the best.
 
WTF (substitute the what for where) is the D400 or whatever you want to call it?!

http://nikonrumors.com/tag/nikon-retro-full-frame-camera/

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Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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omg Dez, get a FF already
while I completely understand why the sports/ wildlife want the d400

judging from dezm's excellent pictures, his subject matter would do well with a d800
And apparently he - like many it would appear- insists on a prescribed a to b, b to c path or they are left in limbo. Even in when the upgrade arrives-700 to 800- many jump on their soapboxes and yell not the right upgrade or wrong direction. Then there is always too heavy and too big. Lol.
 
I own a Sony NEX-6 mirrorless which uses the same sensor as the D7000/D7100. I know of the IQ. It is very good. Part of the reason why I don't want it is because "I sort of have it" and I want the build & hardware controls of the D300.

I'm being patient Renato. My D300 works for me & I like it but my patience is growing thin after this impending announcement of a "retro" SLR by Nikon.

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Dez
http://dezsantana.com

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Dez, I was in a similar situation a few months back. I've made my decision (it's quite a different one), so I hope you manage to find your solution soon.

However, the D7100 doesn't use the same sensor as the NEX 6. It's not even using a Sony sensor. It's a Toshiba sensor that has been highly praised in many reviews. Indeed, I think I quite like it myself. Don't like the D7100's buffer though - what were they thinking?
 
Whether it's a D400 or D7200 likely depends on what Canon does. it doesn't really matter to me: all I want is a minimum of 7 fps and a three second burst buffer capacity.
 
"Waste of time" to YOU. In case you haven't visited Nikon FX forum or Nikon Rumors, the DF is the ONLY thing anybody is talking about.
No, I haven't visited teh Nikon FX forum in a long time, mostly because I am not interested in FX. My choice.


JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
 
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Why would you even want to be shooting an APS-C camera these days when the majority of photographers have moved on to FF? Dramatically better low-light ability and better DOF control are two no-brainer reasons to use FF over APS-C.
Should one choose a camera by picking one they need, or picking one everyone else is using that doesn't have what they need? All the new FF cameras have slow burst rates and of course heavier + more expensive glass- exactly what DezM DOESN'T want.
If you shoot Nikon, you know that the glass for DX and FX is not dramatically different in size or price. Primes like the 28 f/1.8G, 50 f/1.8G or 85 f/1.8G are not heavy or expensive. DX UWA zooms are like the 12-24 f/4 are as expensive and as large as FF UWA zooms like the 18-35 3.5-5.6. Same for the 17-55 f2.8 and 24-70 f/2.8.

As far as weight, if the OP were concerned about weight, he'd likely look at one of the APS-C mirrorless cameras like the Fujifilm X cameras. But I'm guessing he prefers DSLR ergonomics and F-mount. But the differences in size and weight between FX and DX are minimal, and since many DX use FF lenses like the 70-200 f/2.8 VR and since many DX consumer and prosumer zooms can be as expensive as FX zooms, there are no dramatic difference in prices.
Stop projecting YOUR wants onto him.
I'm not projecting anything on anyone, surely you are joking?

If you look at the OPs website there are very few, if any, images that he couldn't have made with 6 fps vs 8 fps. In fact there are very few sports/action/wildlife images at all, AFAIK. There are tons of wedding / event type images, engagement portraits and some nighttime cityscapes, all of which would benefit far more from the superior IQ of a FF DSLR than another APS-C DSLR.
As for the D400, it's true there is a hole in Nikon's lineup, but I am guessing there aren't enough DezM's to support such an endeavor.
Only time will tell, but based on the OPs website, to get all worked up over an extra 2 fps vs the D7100 or buffer size is ludicrous. The D7100 is a class leading DX camera, and there is pretty much NOTHING you cannot do with a D7100 that you can with a D300s or K3.

If I were the OP, I'd either buy a D7100 and work around any perceived inadequacies he felt it had vs the D300s, or I'd stop messing around with APS-C DSLRs and buy a D610, a camera that will make the biggest improvement for the types of images he makes out of any of these cameras.

If a D400 is announced, it will easy to sell a lightly used D7100 or D610 on Ebay and purchase a D400, if he still felt he needed such a camera. I'm guessing that after he shoots with either camera, but in particular the D610, he won't want to let it out of his hands.
Marike6, I'd like to be able to shoot wildlife or sports without limitations. Although, that isn't my style photography, who's to say it won't be in the near future.

FPS & buffers aren't my requirements. A D300 style body at 16MP to 24MP with greater dynamic range, clean high & low ISO, and priced similar to the D300 are my requirements. As well as not impacting letting go of Nikon lenses I'm fond of.
I hear you. But you have really just described the D7100, a remarkably good camera. I checked one out at B&H and it's not a solid as the D300s (nor as heavy as my D200 seemed to be), but build quality is quite high. It has the advantage of offering class leading IQ.
I will tell you that I handled a D610 today for about 45 minutes. I went through each button and the Menu.......I like it. It's about the same size and weight as my D300. The IQ was great. This is my alternative choice if a D400 never comes about.
A D610 would be an excellent choice as well based on the types of images you do. Best of luck and happy shooting, Markus

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If you shoot Nikon, you know that the glass for DX and FX is not dramatically different in size or price. Primes like the 28 f/1.8G, 50 f/1.8G or 85 f/1.8G are not heavy or expensive. DX UWA zooms are like the 12-24 f/4 are as expensive and as large as FF UWA zooms like the 18-35 3.5-5.6. Same for the 17-55 f2.8 and 24-70 f/2.8.

As far as weight, if the OP were concerned about weight, he'd likely look at one of the APS-C mirrorless cameras like the Fujifilm X cameras. But I'm guessing he prefers DSLR ergonomics and F-mount. But the differences in size and weight between FX and DX are minimal, and since many DX use FF lenses like the 70-200 f/2.8 VR and since many DX consumer and prosumer zooms can be as expensive as FX zooms, there are no dramatic difference in prices.
Differences between FX and DX are far from minimal. Bodies may be the same but the lenses aren't.
Stop projecting YOUR wants onto him.
I'm not projecting anything on anyone, surely you are joking?

If you look at the OPs website there are very few, if any, images that he couldn't have made with 6 fps vs 8 fps. In fact there are very few sports/action/wildlife images at all, AFAIK. There are tons of wedding / event type images, engagement portraits and some nighttime cityscapes, all of which would benefit far more from the superior IQ of a FF DSLR than another APS-C DSLR.
Maybe he doesn't put all his photos on his website. Sounds like he puts up the images he gets paid for.
Only time will tell, but based on the OPs website, to get all worked up over an extra 2 fps vs the D7100 or buffer size is ludicrous. The D7100 is a class leading DX camera, and there is pretty much NOTHING you cannot do with a D7100 that you can with a D300s or K3.

If I were the OP, I'd either buy a D7100 and work around any perceived inadequacies he felt it had vs the D300s, or I'd stop messing around with APS-C DSLRs and buy a D610, a camera that will make the biggest improvement for the types of images he makes out of any of these cameras.

If a D400 is announced, it will easy to sell a lightly used D7100 or D610 on Ebay and purchase a D400, if he still felt he needed such a camera. I'm guessing that after he shoots with either camera, but in particular the D610, he won't want to let it out of his hands.
Again, one's website is hardly an indicator of every or the majority of pictures they take.
 

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