Why I don't want IBIS

rishi o' · Oct 21, 2013

- It will make the camera bigger

- It will cut battery life further

- It might compromise video quality due to heat

- it's a complicated moving part

- I mostly take photos of people and I need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion. IBIS won't help me with photography. (I do professional photography with the nex 7 and you can see some of my work here www.rishio.com )

- I do long exposure nature shots and use a pocket tripod or tripod to take those shots because the exposure needs to be at least 15+ seconds, often with an ND filter to get the effect I want. IBIS won't help me in those

- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS

- I use monopods, sliders and other tools for professional video because I need to pan left/right/up/down and slide all the time. Just holding the camera in the air and getting a straight video shot isn't that interesting and negates the need for IBIS in video mode. I do professional video using the nex 7 and you can see my work here (http://www.rishio.com/shorts.html )

- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS. For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

That's just my take. I'm sure lots of people have valid uses for IBIS, but I'm glad it's not included in the A7R which I'm so excited to get early next year!

--

Rishio
http://www.rishio.com

120 to 35 · Oct 21, 2013

Excellent! You haven't missed much, but I will add a few points.

rishi o' said:
rishi o' wrote:

IBIS together with in-lens mechanical stabilization are film era technologies that have less relevance in digital photography.

IBIS adds a few stops to the minimum handheld shutter speed and only with static objects. Modern digital cameras have multi-shot alternatives such as AutoHDR, Anti Motion Blur, Hand Held Twilight that use computation to combine multiple images.

As image processing speed increases, computational stabilization supersedes mechanical methods. In the next few years, image processors should be able to sample each exposure multiple times and account for camera shake as well as subject movement which is not remedied by IBIS or in-lens stabilization.

rishi o' said:
- It will make the camera bigger

- It will cut battery life further

- It might compromise video quality due to heat

- it's a complicated moving part

- I mostly take photos of people and I need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion. IBIS won't help me with photography. (I do professional photography with the nex 7 and you can see some of my work here www.rishio.com )

- I do long exposure nature shots and use a pocket tripod or tripod to take those shots because the exposure needs to be at least 15+ seconds, often with an ND filter to get the effect I want. IBIS won't help me in those

- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS.

- I use monopods, sliders and other tools for professional video because I need to pan left/right/up/down and slide all the time. Just holding the camera in the air and getting a straight video shot isn't that interesting and negates the need for IBIS in video mode. I do professional video using the nex 7 and you can see my work here (http://www.rishio.com/shorts.html )

- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS. For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

That's just my take. I'm sure lots of people have valid uses for IBIS, but I'm glad it's not included in the A7R which I'm so excited to get early next year!

--

Rishio
http://www.rishio.com

Keit ll · Oct 21, 2013

rishi o' said:
rishi o' wrote:

- It will make the camera bigger

- It will cut battery life further

- It might compromise video quality due to heat

- it's a complicated moving part

- I mostly take photos of people and I need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion. IBIS won't help me with photography. (I do professional photography with the nex 7 and you can see some of my work here www.rishio.com )

- I do long exposure nature shots and use a pocket tripod or tripod to take those shots because the exposure needs to be at least 15+ seconds, often with an ND filter to get the effect I want. IBIS won't help me in those

- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS

- I use monopods, sliders and other tools for professional video because I need to pan left/right/up/down and slide all the time. Just holding the camera in the air and getting a straight video shot isn't that interesting and negates the need for IBIS in video mode. I do professional video using the nex 7 and you can see my work here (http://www.rishio.com/shorts.html )

- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS. For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

That's just my take. I'm sure lots of people have valid uses for IBIS, but I'm glad it's not included in the A7R which I'm so excited to get early next year!

--

Its not clear to me why you felt it necessary to post a long message explaining why you don't want a feature which has existed for years on Minolta & Sony DSLRs &SLTs.

It's also not clear to me also why if you are a Professional why you are even using Sony cameras ?

If IBIS is not required are we to assume that Sony is ditching all its IBIS equipped cameras & if so when is this going to happen ?

If your opinions are to become the norm then Sony has just lost a long-time client. :-(

It is not relevant to me to know that at some time in the unspecified future that alternatives to IBIS may exist but for now IBIS actually works.

The features such a multiple shot exposure for blur correction etc that the second poster refers to don't actually work as well as IBIS except in special circumstances . Merged multi-shots are decidedly soft.

It is wrong to describe IBIS as outdated Film Technology , where does this idea come from ? I suppose the A99 & all the other Sony DSLRs & SLTs are now to be ditched as old-hat technology ?

Arcturu · Oct 21, 2013

OIS is certainly film-era technology, but IBIS isn't. It would be completely impractical to wiggle the complete film chamber around; that's why Canon had to invent OIS for its film SLRs.

The various software techniques for simulating stabilization presently work only on JPGs. I and many others shoot only Raw.

rishi o' · Oct 21, 2013

Keit ll said:
Keit ll wrote:

Keit ll said:

rishi o' wrote:

- It will make the camera bigger

- It will cut battery life further

- It might compromise video quality due to heat

- it's a complicated moving part

- I mostly take photos of people and I need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion. IBIS won't help me with photography. (I do professional photography with the nex 7 and you can see some of my work here www.rishio.com )

- I do long exposure nature shots and use a pocket tripod or tripod to take those shots because the exposure needs to be at least 15+ seconds, often with an ND filter to get the effect I want. IBIS won't help me in those

- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS

- I use monopods, sliders and other tools for professional video because I need to pan left/right/up/down and slide all the time. Just holding the camera in the air and getting a straight video shot isn't that interesting and negates the need for IBIS in video mode. I do professional video using the nex 7 and you can see my work here (http://www.rishio.com/shorts.html )

- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS. For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

That's just my take. I'm sure lots of people have valid uses for IBIS, but I'm glad it's not included in the A7R which I'm so excited to get early next year!

--

Click to expand...

Its not clear to me why you felt it necessary to post a long message explaining why you don't want a feature which has existed for years on Minolta & Sony DSLRs &SLTs.

To counter all the posts angry at Sony not putting IBIS in the A7r.

Keit ll said:
It's also not clear to me also why if you are a Professional why you are even using Sony cameras ?

DSLRS are too big for me. There's a saying that goes, "less is more." If If I were born in an earlier time I would have been a rangefinder user. Sony Full Frame E-mount is the camera I've always wanted in the digital realm for my time period. No - I'm not interested in the Leica.

Keit ll said:
If IBIS is not required are we to assume that Sony is ditching all its IBIS equipped cameras & if so when is this going to happen ?

If your opinions are to become the norm then Sony has just lost a long-time client. :-(

Most people on this forum seem to want IBIS and so perhaps sony will produce a model that has it (if it's even technically possible on the e-mount). I just want to voice that I'm one of those that wouldn't want IBIS because it gives me more negatives than positives.

Keit ll said:
It is not relevant to me to know that at some time in the unspecified future that alternatives to IBIS may exist but for now IBIS actually works.

The features such a multiple shot exposure for blur correction etc that the second poster refers to don't actually work as well as IBIS except in special circumstances . Merged multi-shots are decidedly soft.

It is wrong to describe IBIS as outdated Film Technology , where does this idea come from ? I suppose the A99 & all the other Sony DSLRs & SLTs are now to be ditched as old-hat technology ?

IBIS is great for some people. I'm just voicing my opinion which seems to be among the vast minority on this thread. I've got other opinions as well. The 35mm f/2.8 lens they just announced is an amazing, pro worthy lens. I want it. 90% of the posts I'm reading about that are wondering why they didn't make it f/1.4. I understand why and I'm glad it's f/2.8.

--
Rishio
http://www.rishio.com

120 to 35 · Oct 21, 2013

Keit ll said:
Keit ll wrote:

Keit ll said:

rishi o' wrote:

- It will make the camera bigger

- It will cut battery life further

- It might compromise video quality due to heat

- it's a complicated moving part

- I mostly take photos of people and I need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion. IBIS won't help me with photography. (I do professional photography with the nex 7 and you can see some of my work here www.rishio.com )

- I do long exposure nature shots and use a pocket tripod or tripod to take those shots because the exposure needs to be at least 15+ seconds, often with an ND filter to get the effect I want. IBIS won't help me in those

- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS

- I use monopods, sliders and other tools for professional video because I need to pan left/right/up/down and slide all the time. Just holding the camera in the air and getting a straight video shot isn't that interesting and negates the need for IBIS in video mode. I do professional video using the nex 7 and you can see my work here (http://www.rishio.com/shorts.html )

- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS. For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

That's just my take. I'm sure lots of people have valid uses for IBIS, but I'm glad it's not included in the A7R which I'm so excited to get early next year!

--

Click to expand...

Its not clear to me why you felt it necessary to post a long message explaining why you don't want a feature which has existed for years on Minolta & Sony DSLRs &SLTs.

It's also not clear to me also why if you are a Professional why you are even using Sony cameras ?

If IBIS is not required are we to assume that Sony is ditching all its IBIS equipped cameras & if so when is this going to happen ?

If your opinions are to become the norm then Sony has just lost a long-time client. :-(

It is not relevant to me to know that at some time in the unspecified future that alternatives to IBIS may exist but for now IBIS actually works.

The features such a multiple shot exposure for blur correction etc that the second poster refers to don't actually work as well as IBIS except in special circumstances . Merged multi-shots are decidedly soft.

It is wrong to describe IBIS as outdated Film Technology , where does this idea come from ? I suppose the A99 & all the other Sony DSLRs & SLTs are now to be ditched as old-hat technology ?

This is not the SLT forum and IBIS does not exist in NEX, A3000, or A7 cameras. It is not relevant to this forum that IBIS exists in Sony SLT cameras and the posts are not asking Sony to ditch features from existing Alpha cameras.

There have been some posts saying the poster wants IBIS added as a new feature to E-mount cameras. Both posts here show IBIS works only in a few special circumstances, some of which are already covered by various alternatives.

The posts here cover both the advantages and limitations of IBIS with the view that the advantages do not override the disadvantages for future E-mount cameras. I mentioned the future developments because the proposition that IBIS should be added to NEX belongs to the future.

sroute · Oct 21, 2013

+1.

If folks want in body stabilization they'll need to buy another camera other than the Sony A7 or A7r, or cameras with similar sensors such as the Nikon D600 or D800, or pro grade cameras like the D3 or D4 or the Canon EOS Mark III and related series or ...

In one short paragraph I've encompassed cameras used by an overwhelming number of professionals and none have IBIS.

So... why all the whining about Sony, quite correctly in my view, choosing to forgo IBIS in the A7 (and RX1 and NEX series)?

DT200 · Oct 21, 2013

- "Because Sony doesn't offer it in my camera"

This is kind of funny because in the Sony Alpha forum you get the exact opposite comments.

Personally, I would rather pay for IS once and save lens size and price rather than paying to have it in every lens, but I understand everyone is different.

Donny out of Element here · Oct 21, 2013

rishi o' said:
rishi o' wrote:

- It will make the camera bigger

- It will cut battery life further

- It might compromise video quality due to heat

- it's a complicated moving part

- I mostly take photos of people and I need a fast enough shutter speed to freeze motion. IBIS won't help me with photography. (I do professional photography with the nex 7 and you can see some of my work here www.rishio.com )

- I do long exposure nature shots and use a pocket tripod or tripod to take those shots because the exposure needs to be at least 15+ seconds, often with an ND filter to get the effect I want. IBIS won't help me in those

- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS

- I use monopods, sliders and other tools for professional video because I need to pan left/right/up/down and slide all the time. Just holding the camera in the air and getting a straight video shot isn't that interesting and negates the need for IBIS in video mode. I do professional video using the nex 7 and you can see my work here (http://www.rishio.com/shorts.html )

- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS.

Even in that situation one can be best with Sony's SSS (Super Steady Shot - that does wonders for video).

rishi o' said:
For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

That's just my take. I'm sure lots of people have valid uses for IBIS, but I'm glad it's not included in the A7R which I'm so excited to get early next year!

--

Rishio
http://www.rishio.com

Horshack · Oct 21, 2013

rishi o' said:
rishi o' wrote:
- It will cut battery life further
- It might compromise video quality due to heat

On occasions where you don't need IBIS you can turn it off to avoid the above.

rishi o' said:
- Full frame goes to high enough ISO to cover low light such that it's not a worth while trade off for me to have extra size/weight/complexity in the camera that includes IBIS

hmm, I would still prefer IBIS with a higher exposure vs having to fall back on High ISO. On my OM-D for static scenes where I can drag the shutter to as slow as the IBIS and my hands will allow I can get cleaner photos than I could on my D3s.

rishi o' said:
- Turning on and off IBIS is just another setting i'll have to keep fiddling with. There are already enough controls to work with.

IBIS is pretty easy to toggle on most bodies. And with your preference to leave it off for most scenarios you likely won't have to fiddle much.

rishi o' said:
That said, the one place where IBIS would be useful for me is if I want to walk with the camera or handhold for occasional steady video shots. Those cases are minimal cons outweigh the pros for including IBIS. For those arguing that IBIS is better than OIS, I don't really purchase OIS lenses and I'm thankful that the zeiss primes don't have them. They compromise image quality and add weight and complexity to the lens.

Agreed. It's on fast primes where IBIS really shines. Being able to shoot a 35mm or 50mm prime at f/1.4 and 1/6 hand-held is extremely valuable to me.

DT200 · Oct 21, 2013

Just to clarify. They are all "Alpha" cameras. Some have E-mounts and others A-mounts. Some have IBIS and others do not.

I don't see why people need to start threads unless it really bothers them that this one feature was left off certain cameras but is included in other Sony cameras. If anything we should be excited about rumors of Sony improving this feature in some of their up coming Alpha cameras.

120 to 35 · Oct 21, 2013

Arcturu said:
Arcturu wrote:

OIS is certainly film-era technology, but IBIS isn't. It would be completely impractical to wiggle the complete film chamber around; that's why Canon had to invent OIS for its film SLRs.

The various software techniques for simulating stabilization presently work only on JPGs. I and many others shoot only Raw.

Accepted. Bad wording with "film-era".

Regarding software technologies, things are progressing steadily. The latest BIONZ-X samples video from all the pixels in the frame; something that was not done before. Stabilization during exposure does not look too far away, and when it does arrive, the image would be stored as RAW if the user opts for it.

120 to 35 · Oct 21, 2013

DT200 said:
DT200 wrote:

Just to clarify. They are all "Alpha" cameras. Some have E-mounts and others A-mounts. Some have IBIS and others do not.

I don't see why people need to start threads unless it really bothers them that this one feature was left off certain cameras but is included in other Sony cameras. If anything we should be excited about rumors of Sony improving this feature in some of their up coming Alpha cameras.

They are all Alpha cameras but the thread and this forum is about E-mount. E-mount cameras do not have IBIS.

When adding a feature adds weight even if you don't use it (IBIS and OSS), or reduces image quality (OSS), there is a case for arguing against it.

Jefenator · Oct 21, 2013

It's something I would have really liked for certain situations, but I can keep making do without. Or invest in one lens with OSS.

Keit ll · Oct 21, 2013

Jefenator said:
Jefenator wrote:

It's something I would have really liked for certain situations, but I can keep making do without. Or invest in one lens with OSS.

Yes & that highlights the problem. It is a whole host of long-time users that would most benefit from having IBIS whose lenses by design from Minolta & Sony do not have ILIS !

What are they expected to do , throw their lenses away ? If they re-invested in new lenses do you really think that they would stick with Sony ?

turnstyle · Oct 28, 2013

120 to 35 said:
120 to 35 wrote:

IBIS adds a few stops to the minimum handheld shutter speed and only with static objects. Modern digital cameras have multi-shot alternatives such as AutoHDR, Anti Motion Blur, Hand Held Twilight that use computation to combine multiple images.

Funny, because "adds a few stops to the minimum handheld shutter speed for static subjects" is pretty appealing to me.

imho, AutoHDR, HHT, AMB aren't the same -- I want a RAW -- and, of course, if you're using AutoHDR, HHT, AMB, you're getting a photo that was captured over a period in time in which things can move, just as with a longer shutter. Sure, the software may then try to fix change when it's combining images, but that's just software making guesses for you.

120 to 35 · Oct 28, 2013

turnstyle said:
turnstyle wrote:

turnstyle said:

120 to 35 wrote:

IBIS adds a few stops to the minimum handheld shutter speed and only with static objects. Modern digital cameras have multi-shot alternatives such as AutoHDR, Anti Motion Blur, Hand Held Twilight that use computation to combine multiple images.

Click to expand...

Funny, because "adds a few stops to the minimum handheld shutter speed for static subjects" is pretty appealing to me.

imho, AutoHDR, HHT, AMB aren't the same -- I want a RAW -- and, of course, if you're using AutoHDR, HHT, AMB, you're getting a photo that was captured over a period in time in which things can move, just as with a longer shutter. Sure, the software may then try to fix change when it's combining images, but that's just software making guesses for you.

IBIS has certainly its uses as I mentioned. I am particularly concerned about the additional size and weight. For me the minimal feature set and size of the NEX-5 is ideal. If all the requests for IBIS, built-in high-res viewfinder, larger batteries, more video-related hardware such as mic jack, fully articulated screen a la a77 etc. are fulfilled by Sony, their future models will be too heavy and chunky for me.

cosmonaut · Oct 28, 2013

I guess you have never had IBIS. It doesn't make the camera any bigger. It doesn't eat that much into the battery, nothing like a EVF, just look at the size of the E-M5. I ma full frame and though I rarely use Steady Shot there are times its nice to have.
--
www.gregmccary.com

tjuster1 · Oct 28, 2013

Seems like, for you, no IBIS is a good decision.

One thing strikes me, however: If you never take pictures that need IBIS you'll never miss it. Personally, I've found IBIS to be very valuable, and it's opened up opportunities I never knew existed. Sure I can take pictures without it--and without AF and AE too. IBIS is just another creative tool you can choose to use or ignore.

jpr2 · Oct 28, 2013

tjuster1 said:
tjuster1 wrote:

Seems like, for you, no IBIS is a good decision.

One thing strikes me, however: If you never take pictures that need IBIS you'll never miss it. Personally, I've found IBIS to be very valuable, and it's opened up opportunities I never knew existed. Sure I can take pictures without it--and without AF and AE too. IBIS is just another creative tool you can choose to use or ignore.

...will add the possible inclusion of IBIS into [formerly named] NEX'en - like N5, N6 or N7?

jpr2

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