Worth Going Canon FF?

pgeorges · Sep 30, 2013

I currently use a Canon C100 and BMCC for video work so I have some EF Mount lenses. The FF lenses I have are:

Canon 24-105mm
Zeiss 50mm f2.0 Makro
Samyang 35mm and 85mm 1.4

I am thinking of getting a DSLR purely for photography.

I was wondering if it's worth going for something like a Canon FF these days (and being able to use some of my lenses) when the D800e is the competition. If I am going to lug around a DSLR i'd want it to be heads and shoulders better than a mirrorless camera. I've played around with a 6D and it certainly has a much more soft look than the Leica and X100S i've played with. I'm assuming it's down to the AA filter which is why the D800E interests me.

So I'm not sure if I should get the 6D or if it's worth going for a D800E and a 50mm manual lens?

Any advice from Team Canon?

qianp2k · Sep 30, 2013

6D can produce very sharp photos with good lenses. AA filter only contributes slightly in sharpness and resolution but not a big deal that you can find some side by side comparison between D800 and D800E for example. Do you need to print in very large size? If not 20mp 6D is sufficient and can use your existing Canon lenses anyway. Make sure your lenses are probably calibrated and then use MFA to further fine tune such as with DotTune method.

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Sean_Jayhawk · Sep 30, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

pgeorges said:
If I am going to lug around a DSLR i'd want it to be heads and shoulders better than a mirrorless camera. I've played around with a 6D and it certainly has a much more soft look than the Leica and X100S i've played with.

I largely shoot a Canon 6D with the Sigma 35/1.4 Art. But I also have a Sony NEX 5N and I had the Zeiss 24/1.8, which has a very similar frame of view to the 6D combo. If you're looking at full frame to be "head and shoulders" better than my NEX 5N then it really depends on what you shoot. I did considerable testing and the mirrorless option in decent light compares very favorably to the full frame option. If I didn't seek to get the shallow depth of field look to many of my photos then I could not justify the 6D over my NEX 5N. The 6D and Sigma 35 I use can produce extremely sharp images that will easily be sharper than the X100S without a doubt. But so will images from my NEX and a number of lenses. Wanting sharpness is not a reason to go full frame, I don't think. If that's all you seek then a mirrorless option is sure to satisfy. I'd figure out what you shoot and then decide whether those shots benefit from full frame.

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The Davinator · Sep 30, 2013

What do you normally photograph? Without knowing that, no one can provide an answer to help you.

pgeorges · Sep 30, 2013

The Davinator said:
Dave Luttmann wrote:

What do you normally photograph? Without knowing that, no one can provide an answer to help you.

Ah yes I should have said!

I photograph people. I like to take "contextual portraits" such as this:

I took that using a Leica M8 with a Voigtlander 35mm f1.2. I just get this feeling that it has something to it that I haven't been able to reproduce when I've used some Canon FF cameras. But I cannot put my finger on it. The lack of AA filter was my initial guess but I could be wrong!

meland · Sep 30, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:
If I am going to lug around a DSLR i'd want it to be heads and shoulders better than a mirrorless camera. I've played around with a 6D and it certainly has a much more soft look than the Leica and X100S i've played with. I'm assuming it's down to the AA filter which is why the D800E interests me.

A lot of the difference in 'look' will depend on what the various settings were on the cameras - e.g. JPEG or Raw, and not forgetting any Picture Styles that the 6D may have had set. And usually the look can be tailored to your own preferences anyway. I rather doubt you would be noticing any effect due to the AA filter but if cameras without an AA filter do interest you, make sure that the subjects that you like to take aren't going to suffer from moire patterns.

The Davinator · Sep 30, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

pgeorges said:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

What do you normally photograph? Without knowing that, no one can provide an answer to help you.

Click to expand...

Ah yes I should have said!

I photograph people. I like to take "contextual portraits" such as this:

I took that using a Leica M8 with a Voigtlander 35mm f1.2. I just get this feeling that it has something to it that I haven't been able to reproduce when I've used some Canon FF cameras. But I cannot put my finger on it. The lack of AA filter was my initial guess but I could be wrong!

The Voigtlander 35f1.2 is superb. I use a Voigtlander Ultron 35 f1.7 and love the rendering on my Bessa R2a and Fuji X-Pro1. For this type of work, you really wont gain anything over your M8. Resolution won't matter as much as good color and tonality. You really woulnt gain anything by switching to full frame. If you wanted, you could pick up a used 5D2 to give it a try....but I think you'll prefer that Voigtlanders rendering and character over anything from Canon glass.

qianp2k · Sep 30, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

pgeorges said:

I just get this feeling that it has something to it that I haven't been able to reproduce when I've used some Canon FF cameras. But I cannot put my finger on it. The lack of AA filter was my initial guess but I could be wrong!

Click to expand...

Are you talking about sharpness? Canon FF cameras are good known never lacking of sharpness as confirmed in DXO test. I suspect your lenses are not calibrated. I own all three Canon 5D series cameras.

5D1 100% cropped

5D2 5000-pixel wide, almost 100% cropped with 24-105L

5D3

They can withstand M8 or Fuji if not sharper if we view at the same size.

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meland · Sep 30, 2013

The Davinator said:
Dave Luttmann wrote:

The Davinator said:

draculr wrote:

The Davinator said:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

What do you normally photograph? Without knowing that, no one can provide an answer to help you.

Click to expand...

Ah yes I should have said!

I photograph people. I like to take "contextual portraits" such as this:

I took that using a Leica M8 with a Voigtlander 35mm f1.2. I just get this feeling that it has something to it that I haven't been able to reproduce when I've used some Canon FF cameras. But I cannot put my finger on it. The lack of AA filter was my initial guess but I could be wrong!

Click to expand...

The Voigtlander 35f1.2 is superb. I use a Voigtlander Ultron 35 f1.7 and love the rendering on my Bessa R2a and Fuji X-Pro1. For this type of work, you really wont gain anything over your M8. Resolution won't matter as much as good color and tonality. You really woulnt gain anything by switching to full frame. If you wanted, you could pick up a used 5D2 to give it a try....but I think you'll prefer that Voigtlanders rendering and character over anything from Canon glass.

It might indeed be the lens, especially if you are comparing a prime 35mm on your M8 with perhaps a kit zoom lens on the 6D (more elements in the zoom = less contrast and less intense colour.)

However you may also be noticing the differences in colour rendition between a CCD sensor (M8) and a CMOS sensor (6D). Some still prefer CCD sensors at low ISOs although they do not perform well at high ISOs.

pgeorges · Sep 30, 2013

Member said:
meland wrote:

However you may also be noticing the differences in colour rendition between a CCD sensor (M8) and a CMOS sensor (6D). Some still prefer CCD sensors at low ISOs although they do not perform well at high ISOs.

Yea that's true it was rubbish at high ISO.

I must say I had used the Leica and other mirrorless cameras AFTER using the 6D. It is a possibility it was as much a style and technique change on my part rather than something the Canon is lacking...

Maybe it's worth another shot with them. Being able to use my 50 and 85mm lenses is really drawing me back into the Canon system.

qianp2k · Sep 30, 2013

Member said:
meland wrote:
It might indeed be the lens, especially if you are comparing a prime 35mm on your M8 with perhaps a kit zoom lens on the 6D (more elements in the zoom = less contrast and less intense colour.)

However you may also be noticing the differences in colour rendition between a CCD sensor (M8) and a CMOS sensor (6D). Some still prefer CCD sensors at low ISOs although they do not perform well at high ISOs.

Indeed let compare apple to apple. 6D with 35L, or 35/2.0 IS or Sigma 35/1.4 can fully match if not sharper with similar level of color tonality if not better from OP's M8 set at low ISO, then much better in high ISO. M8 has to focus manually also.

wazu · Sep 30, 2013

For a videographer you may find the 70D with smooth focus pull and focus tracking a great alternative to your dedicared video gear. Also the swivel screen is a boon for obvious reasons.

Using the 4 decent Canon lenses will save you from having to purchase new lenses for Nikon D800 body.

If you are really bent on Full Frame then you really ought to compare the 6D with a 5D mkIII. Having a 1/8000 shutter with fast lenses in bright sun and hoping to shoot wide open with the 6Ds 1/4000 shutter is hopeless making you rely on ND filters. Also with a thin DoF center focus with the 6Ds center AF point and recomposing is really not reliable. Also if you want to track in AI servo anything moving you will appreciate the 5D mkIIIs advanced system compared to the minimal AF capability the 6D has.

meland · Sep 30, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

pgeorges said:

meland wrote:

However you may also be noticing the differences in colour rendition between a CCD sensor (M8) and a CMOS sensor (6D). Some still prefer CCD sensors at low ISOs although they do not perform well at high ISOs.

Click to expand...

Yea that's true it was rubbish at high ISO.

I must say I had used the Leica and other mirrorless cameras AFTER using the 6D. It is a possibility it was as much a style and technique change on my part rather than something the Canon is lacking...

Maybe it's worth another shot with them. Being able to use my 50 and 85mm lenses is really drawing me back into the Canon system.

Well if you do give the 6D another go you might like to try this as a quick and dirty experiment - shoot with the 6D set to Raw and sRGB colour space and ideally with your 50 and 85 lenses. Load DPP if you haven't done so already - it's the free Raw converter that comes with Canon DSLRs and if it's an old copy update it to the latest version (updates free from Canon's various websites).

Then try applying the various pre-set Canon Picture Styles provided within DPP to your images. These Picture Styles can be applied retrospectively with out any negative effect on your original Raw file and can also be undone. One of these existing pre-sets may well give you the 'look' you are aiming for but if not you can easily create your own picture styles within Canon's Picture Style Editor and chances are you will be able to duplicate the look you already like with your Leica.

The Davinator · Sep 30, 2013

If you already have a Canon 50 and 85, I'd stick with Canon bodies and look at the 6D or 70D depending on your needs.

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

pgeorges said:

meland wrote:

However you may also be noticing the differences in colour rendition between a CCD sensor (M8) and a CMOS sensor (6D). Some still prefer CCD sensors at low ISOs although they do not perform well at high ISOs.

Click to expand...

Yea that's true it was rubbish at high ISO.

I must say I had used the Leica and other mirrorless cameras AFTER using the 6D. It is a possibility it was as much a style and technique change on my part rather than something the Canon is lacking...

Maybe it's worth another shot with them. Being able to use my 50 and 85mm lenses is really drawing me back into the Canon system.

The Davinator · Sep 30, 2013

The lens difference can indeed be present. Sharpness of course has little to do with things here. I'd say the primes are adequetly sharp on both systems. The CCD of the M8 does impart a different look here. And the primes from Voigtlander and Leica have a different rendering than say Canon or Nikon. Ifind for portrait work, sharpness is not the measure in which to judge a lens/system need. Many get caught up in though

NancyP · Sep 30, 2013

if you want a light compact fixed-lens 50mm equivalent camera - as long as you are fine shooting at low ISO and don't need extreme shutter speed. Image quality is unbelievably good for an APS-C camera, and rivals the D800, many people say. Plus, it costs about as much as one lens - $800.00 to $900.00. Downside - Foveon files require Sigma's odd post-processing program, probable need to follow up the Sigma PP with a second program handling the SPP tiff output.

Kabe Luna · Sep 30, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

I currently use a Canon C100 and BMCC for video work so I have some EF Mount lenses. The FF lenses I have are:

Canon 24-105mm
Zeiss 50mm f2.0 Makro
Samyang 35mm and 85mm 1.4

I am thinking of getting a DSLR purely for photography.

I was wondering if it's worth going for something like a Canon FF these days (and being able to use some of my lenses) when the D800e is the competition. If I am going to lug around a DSLR i'd want it to be heads and shoulders better than a mirrorless camera. I've played around with a 6D and it certainly has a much more soft look than the Leica and X100S i've played with. I'm assuming it's down to the AA filter which is why the D800E interests me.

So I'm not sure if I should get the 6D or if it's worth going for a D800E and a 50mm manual lens?

Any advice from Team Canon?

For photos only, assuming equivalent-quality lenses (I notice currently you are using third-parties, exclusively), I'd recommend either the D800 or D800e. Both are better stills cameras. However, if lenses are taken into account for Canon and Nikon, respectively, they become the dominant factor. Some Canon lenses are head-and-shoulders above their Nikon counterparts in terms of image quality, and vice versa. So, it actually boils down to the resolving power of the body/lens combination(s) when you're looking at Canon and Nikon AF lenses.

DFPanno · Sep 30, 2013

I would take a hard look at the D800E.

I absolutely love the Sony sensor in my RX1 (not to mention the IQ).

In fact I would take a hard look at a Nikon D610 if it makes an appearence.

The Davinator · Sep 30, 2013

DFPanno said:
DFPanno wrote:

I would take a hard look at the D800E.

I absolutely love the Sony sensor in my RX1 (not to mention the IQ).

In fact I would take a hard look at a Nikon D610 if it makes an appearence.

brightcolours · Oct 1, 2013

pgeorges said:
draculr wrote:

I currently use a Canon C100 and BMCC for video work so I have some EF Mount lenses. The FF lenses I have are:

Canon 24-105mm
Zeiss 50mm f2.0 Makro
Samyang 35mm and 85mm 1.4

I am thinking of getting a DSLR purely for photography.

I was wondering if it's worth going for something like a Canon FF these days (and being able to use some of my lenses) when the D800e is the competition. If I am going to lug around a DSLR i'd want it to be heads and shoulders better than a mirrorless camera. I've played around with a 6D and it certainly has a much more soft look than the Leica and X100S i've played with

The Leica has no AA-filter, and as such it has false detail you might interpret at "sharper" when viewed at 100%. Without AA-filter, each pixel has a hard square boundary which adds artificial edges and so false detail. An AA filter prevents that from happening. If you sharpen (USM or more advanced techniques) in post processing, you can get better results with an AA-filter than without.

The X100S just sharpens a lot, and is in no way better than a 6D. It is just a compact digital.

pgeorges said:
. I'm assuming it's down to the AA filter which is why the D800E interests me.

Learn about sharpening. The D800 has its own share of problems, and is in no way the best camera around. If you do not need the extra resolution its 36mp sensor can provide (with bigger apertures and sharp enough lenses), it is not the best choice.

pgeorges said:
So I'm not sure if I should get the 6D or if it's worth going for a D800E and a 50mm manual lens?

Any advice from Team Canon?

If you can't get good results with the 6D, blame the photographer and his experience rather than the camera. You can get any look with the 6D that you want, you just have to learn it.

The 6D has very good ergonomics, and a nice touch is the WiFi which enables iOS and Android devices to act as remote live view devices. The only minus point I see is the not 100% view finder.

Worth Going Canon FF?

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