What are the pros/cons of the a77? Is it worth buying?

123Mike · Sep 24, 2013

VirtualMirage said:
VirtualMirage wrote:

VirtualMirage said:

123Mike wrote:

VirtualMirage said:

... the cost of each Full Frame sensor would be between $132-$147. The cost of each APS-C sensor would be between $44-$53.

Click to expand...

Thank you for proving my point. If a full frame sensor costs $100 more to manufacture, give or take, then I don't see why an A99 must cost like $2500, while the A77 costs only $1000.

The point was that it wasn't because of the FF sensor that makes this camera so expensive. It's just marketing.

Click to expand...

What a way to extract only portion of a comment and twist it! Just shows you are either on an agenda or completely missed the point (possibly both!).

I'm not twisting anything. You yourself guestimated a $100 increased cost.

VirtualMirage said:
My example was only showing the distribution in the cost of the wafer alone and was only a guesstimate at the cost of the wafer (it could cost far more). As Swede pointed out, the full frame sensors also take multiple passes to make versus the APS-C sensors.

Why? Is that something that only "swede" knows?

VirtualMirage said:
You also missed the point of a smaller production run increases the cost,

That I agree with. But when lowering the prices, production quantities goes up, and cost back down.

VirtualMirage said:
the larger and more powerful shutter,

Would that make a heck of a whole lot of difference though? I'm looking for that $1000 to $1500 extra production cost. This or anything else so far isn't it.

VirtualMirage said:
the more durable, larger, and faster SSS system,

This is true.

VirtualMirage said:
the on sensor phase detectors, etc., etc.

It does have more phase detectors. (Does it?)

VirtualMirage said:
All these parts designed specifically for the larger sensor also cost more than for an APS-C sensor.

A bit, sure. But $1000+?

VirtualMirage said:
The point was if the cost per chip from the wafer is 3 times more expensive per sensor, you can expect that many of the other parts may be just as proportionately more expensive. A little bit more here, a little bit more there all adds up quickly.

Granted, it adds up. But "stuff" and manufacturing gets better and better and cheaper and cheaper. I'm still not buying the $2500-makes-sense story. I still think a good portion of it is marketing.

VirtualMirage said:
It is more than just a sensor that makes the a Full Frame camera different than an APS-C camera.

I see your points, but the quantities aren't adding up IMO.

VirtualMirage said:
Also keep in mind that you are trying to compare the price of the A99 now to what the A77 is going for now.

That's true as well. The A77 was more than $900. What was it, $1300 at first? I can't remember.

VirtualMirage said:
What you should be doing is comparing the price of the A99 now to how much the A77 cost around the same time frame of its release, or new release price to new release price. The A77 being much cheaper now just means that they have probably been able to achieve higher yields, which lowers the cost per chip, and have had a longer, higher volume production run which lowers the overall cost of the camera. The A99 sensor might have a higher defect rate than the A77, which again has a higher impact on production numbers than it would on the A77.

I agree partially. Perhaps the A99 cost drops to $1500 in a couple of years. That'd be nice. But then, who knows what will be around then. On-sensor pdaf FF? Who knows.

VirtualMirage said:
Take everything into account, don't just look at the sensor. There is much more to it that you are missing or choosing to ignore.

I'm not choosing to ignore anything, I don't have an agenda. I also don't think I'm being unreasonable.

theswede #100093 · Sep 25, 2013

123Mike said:
123Mike said:

All these parts designed specifically for the larger sensor also cost more than for an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

A bit, sure. But $1000+?

Those thousand dollars have to pay for a larger sensor stepped in multiple passes and manufactured in much smaller series. The smaller series is partially because plant capacity saturates more rapidly with larger silicon, meaning there is no way to ramp up production to lower per unit cost - per unit cost will instead increase as manufacturing capacity has to be added and experienced personnel hired in. With experience which is very hard to find, at that.

Therefore it is unfeasible to increase production runs to lower prices. Sensor production of full frame sensors is unlikely to be possible to ramp up, even if demand were to increase. It's not like with other silicon where you just plug in standard steppers and fabbers; there are very specific demands on full frame sensors requiring investment which is not easy to recoup by just churning out standard chips.

More realistic than three times the price of the sensor is 8-10 times the price. The material cost alone is three times, but the manufacturing process is a lot more convoluted involving more manual steps. Canon estimates about 10-20 times the price (http://www.robgalbraith.com/images/canon_full-frame_cmos_white_paper.pdf). Other sources are hard to find, but if you can find a documented lower estimate, please provide it.

Given a basic sensor cost of around 50-100 dollars, you have most of your price difference in the sensor alone. In addition there are mechanical parts which are more expensive (shutter, SSS etc.), so it's quite possible the margin on an A99 is lower than that on an A77.

And because the amount of cameras made is lower, the per unit cost for product design is increased. That means that each camera has to recoup a larger percentage of the huge R&D cost. This cost will not be seen as parts but will have to be recouped.

Jesper

VirtualMirage · Sep 25, 2013

123Mike said:
123Mike wrote:

123Mike said:

VirtualMirage wrote:

What a way to extract only portion of a comment and twist it! Just shows you are either on an agenda or completely missed the point (possibly both!).

Click to expand...

I'm not twisting anything. You yourself guestimated a $100 increased cost.

On just the cost of the wafer alone.

123Mike said:
123Mike said:

My example was only showing the distribution in the cost of the wafer alone and was only a guesstimate at the cost of the wafer (it could cost far more). As Swede pointed out, the full frame sensors also take multiple passes to make versus the APS-C sensors.

Click to expand...

Why? Is that something that only "swede" knows?

No, but he provided a nice, detailed explanation that added onto my comment. I was just trying to keep the explanation simple. Maybe I oversimplified.

123Mike said:
123Mike said:

You also missed the point of a smaller production run increases the cost,

Click to expand...

That I agree with. But when lowering the prices, production quantities goes up, and cost back down.

See TheSwede's comment above this. Some things are not as easy to ramp up production on as others.

123Mike said:
123Mike said:

the on sensor phase detectors, etc., etc.

Click to expand...

It does have more phase detectors. (Does it?)

Considering that the A77 has no on sensor phase detectors, then yes it does. The A99 has the assist points which the A77 is lacking. The PDAF sensor (which is a separate component) for its primary focusing is the same, or similar, as the A77's.

123Mike said:
123Mike said:

All these parts designed specifically for the larger sensor also cost more than for an APS-C sensor.

Click to expand...

A bit, sure. But $1000+?

Add everything up and it will certainly take a nice chunk out of it.

123Mike said:
123Mike said:

Also keep in mind that you are trying to compare the price of the A99 now to what the A77 is going for now.

Click to expand...

That's true as well. The A77 was more than $900. What was it, $1300 at first? I can't remember.

$1400.

Wally626 · Sep 25, 2013

The A77 is really the perfect companion camera for the A99, controls work very similar, so switching between cameras is easy. Learn one learn the other. A77 does have the built in flash. You could get the A77 with the 16-50mm f/2.8 then stick the 70-400mm G2 on the A99.

Question of waiting for the new bodies, so far the only information is rumors, so they may or may not appear and in some unknown time frame. Rumors seem to be that Sony is trying to get the NEX FF bodies out this fall, so new A-mount might slip into next year. Plus the issue of focus, if the new rumored focal plane focus system is not as good as the current PDF system you may wish to wait for round two of development.

RoxanneY · Sep 25, 2013

Wally626 said:
Wally626 wrote:

The A77 is really the perfect companion camera for the A99, controls work very similar, so switching between cameras is easy. Learn one learn the other. A77 does have the built in flash. You could get the A77 with the 16-50mm f/2.8 then stick the 70-400mm G2 on the A99.

Question of waiting for the new bodies, so far the only information is rumors, so they may or may not appear and in some unknown time frame. Rumors seem to be that Sony is trying to get the NEX FF bodies out this fall, so new A-mount might slip into next year. Plus the issue of focus, if the new rumored focal plane focus system is not as good as the current PDF system you may wish to wait for round two of development.

Hi Wally!

That makes alot of sense. I've actually been chatting with an online friend that I met recently that has a77 and they mentioned also that they might be very similar. However I am still uneasy using my a99 and still love my a550 so I guess I should stay put and play/learn what I have as others have mentioned. I love to collect the gear--guess it's time that I really tried to use them. I'll be taking some halau pictures for a CD cover this Sat so I'm getting excited about that!

Roxanne

cplunk · Sep 25, 2013

I went from an A330 to an A77 to an A99.

The A77 is a lot like the A99. The A99 obviously is full frame, and does not have the pop up flash. The A77 does not have Auto ISO in "M" mode.

There are a few other differences, they start getting really minor.

Size and weight are very similar. LCDs and OLED EVFs are, as far as I know, identical. A lot of the buttons are the same.

So, if you have an A99 and find you keep wanting to use an A550, why?

Is it only due to the different sensor size? If so, the A77 might be preferable to you.

If it's due to the OVF? You'll still like the A550 over the A77.

If it's due to the size and weight? you'll still like the A550 over the A77. (and if this is an issue, consider trying to find Sigma's 50-150 f2.8 instead of a full frame 70-200 f2.8. It's an APSC lens with a similar effective view, that's about half the weight and relatively small while delivering pretty awesome quality. But, it's kinda hard to find, I sold mine for more than I bought it manufacturer refurbed).

If there's something about the 16mp file size vs. the 24mp file size? You'll still like the A550 over the A77.

But, while the A77 is so similar to the A99, it's not full frame, and getting up over 800 ISO it start to show noise a lot faster than the A99. I've found can rely on pretty clean images at ISO 1600 on the A99, where I tried to avoid over 800 with the A77. I doubt the A550 is much better than the A77, but have no actual experience with anything using the same sensor, I'm sure you can find some old threads about it if it's something that would concern you.

rtrski · Sep 27, 2013

RoxanneY said:
RoxanneY wrote:

Hi!

I find that I love shooting crop and that I use my a550 much more than my a99. That said I'd like to replace my a550 with the a77, esp now that the price has come down so much. Could those of you that have experience with the a77 tell me what the major pros/cons of this camera are? Or if I should just use what I have and wait for the "mirrorless" a78/a79.

Thanks a bunch!

Roxanne

Um, put crop lenses on the a99, and shoot away? Back down to similar resolution as the a550, but with the newer sensor, AF, etc?

VirtualMirage · Sep 27, 2013

rtrski said:
rtrski wrote:

rtrski said:

RoxanneY wrote:

Hi!

I find that I love shooting crop and that I use my a550 much more than my a99. That said I'd like to replace my a550 with the a77, esp now that the price has come down so much. Could those of you that have experience with the a77 tell me what the major pros/cons of this camera are? Or if I should just use what I have and wait for the "mirrorless" a78/a79.

Thanks a bunch!

Roxanne

Click to expand...

Um, put crop lenses on the a99, and shoot away? Back down to similar resolution as the a550, but with the newer sensor, AF, etc?

Search

What are the pros/cons of the a77? Is it worth buying?

123Mike

Veteran Member

theswede #100093

Veteran Member

VirtualMirage

Veteran Member

Wally626

Senior Member

RoxanneY

Leading Member

cplunk

Senior Member

rtrski

Leading Member

VirtualMirage

Veteran Member

Keyboard shortcuts