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Experimental challenge: Group Critique

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24hrexposure

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I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
 
24hrexposure said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
I'll be interested in seeing how the challenge works out. I'm assuming that you are limiting the number of entries, right? As I have toyed with the same idea, I had thought about only allowing 10 or 15 entries, in hopes of motivating people to give feedback of more than a few words.
 
santamonica812 said:
santamonica812 wrote:
santamonica812 said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
I'll be interested in seeing how the challenge works out. I'm assuming that you are limiting the number of entries, right? As I have toyed with the same idea, I had thought about only allowing 10 or 15 entries, in hopes of motivating people to give feedback of more than a few words.
Click to expand...
 
We have done this kind of challenge before and it was really helpful and well supported. As you have a 10 entries max restriction in the rules it is not too much to ask that people who enter this challenge comment on other people's entries and give helpful advice. I can't remember if voting was restricted to just the entrants before but if this was possible it would certainly limit the comedians who vote the lowest mark possible for each photograph!
 
24hrexposure said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
The objective is fine, but what do you intend to do about the quality of the entries? If 7 out of 10 people submit poor snapshots, the challenge old be nothing but an underperforming idea and all your efforts go down the drain.
 
Member said:
ConanFuji wrote:
Member said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
The objective is fine, but what do you intend to do about the quality of the entries? If 7 out of 10 people submit poor snapshots, the challenge old be nothing but an underperforming idea and all your efforts go down the drain.
Click to expand...
When I got my first camera, I spent a lot of effort on photos that now look to me like snapshots. Feedback would have helped me develop my skills much faster. I don't want to discriminate based on the skill of the photographer, because beginners need the most help.
 
24hrexposure said:
24hrexposure wrote:
24hrexposure said:
ConanFuji wrote:
24hrexposure said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
The objective is fine, but what do you intend to do about the quality of the entries? If 7 out of 10 people submit poor snapshots, the challenge old be nothing but an underperforming idea and all your efforts go down the drain.
Click to expand...
When I got my first camera, I spent a lot of effort on photos that now look to me like snapshots. Feedback would have helped me develop my skills much faster. I don't want to discriminate based on the skill of the photographer, because beginners need the most help.
Click to expand...
First of all I think I want to enter this challenge cos I have a 1/10th chance to win. I have to beat 9 ppl (at the same time dropping unflattering comments about their shots) and the crown is mine. Like taking candy from a baby....muahaha..

Secondly, at first I thought you wanted landscape with ppl. Then I reread and thought you wanted llandscapes which look like some breasts or shapely thighs of a woman (as an example)

Kindly clarify?
 
Wow, those are interesting challenges. The "Photo chat" series is a step beyond what I'm trying to do, and it looks like it worked out pretty well. I like the rule that entrants must have made at least 25 comments; it's an easy bar to pass, but it ensures that they are at least minimally engaged in the DPR community.
 
The idea is commendable and the beauty of it is that you are using the challenge format as a creative way to accomplish something beyond just a challenge. There is much to like about the idea, but what I like most is that it plays up the learning aspect of the challenges. We will indirectly get specific pointers on how to improve and how to better appreciate good photography. It might also give us some insight into how different voters look at and judge challenge entries.

Much of the value will depend on how knowledgable the entrants are and where they fall on the art/technical spectrum. Many of the comments may be more interesting than useful. Hopefully it will work out and be continued by you and others. Then the value will increase as the number of participants and volume of comments increase.. A little poll I posted showed 8 of 10 people in the Open Talk forum know about the challenges. After a while this might attract more of the DPR community to come over and participate.

You will be learning by doing. Another post mortem might be in order. Hopefully there will not be an inordinate amount of work involved. It might prove to be a little tricky to end up with 90 comments and no empty photo slots among the finishers. I am assuming you will DQ anyone who does not comment on all the other entries

tim
 
Member said:
ConanFuji wrote:
Member said:
24hrexposure wrote:
Member said:
ConanFuji wrote:
Member said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
The objective is fine, but what do you intend to do about the quality of the entries? If 7 out of 10 people submit poor snapshots, the challenge old be nothing but an underperforming idea and all your efforts go down the drain.
Click to expand...
When I got my first camera, I spent a lot of effort on photos that now look to me like snapshots. Feedback would have helped me develop my skills much faster. I don't want to discriminate based on the skill of the photographer, because beginners need the most help.
Click to expand...
First of all I think I want to enter this challenge cos I have a 1/10th chance to win. I have to beat 9 ppl (at the same time dropping unflattering comments about their shots) and the crown is mine. Like taking candy from a baby....muahaha..

Secondly, at first I thought you wanted landscape with ppl. Then I reread and thought you wanted llandscapes which look like some breasts or shapely thighs of a woman (as an example)

Kindly clarify?
Click to expand...
if everyone drop 9 comments, the whole anonymity thing will be blown. I would suggest you make everyone comment on all entries, including their own.
 
Member said:
ConanFuji wrote:
Member said:
ConanFuji wrote:
Member said:
24hrexposure wrote:
Member said:
ConanFuji wrote:
Member said:
24hrexposure wrote:

I'm running an experimental challenge called Group Critique: Landscape with a Human Element. The basic idea is every entrant has to post a minimal critique on the other entries. The 'landscape' part is just to have a common interest between the entrants.

I wanted to try this format to emphasize feedback over competition. It seems like most of the problems people have with the challenge system have to do with voting and cheating, and verbal feedback shifts the emphasis to the individual photos rather than the ranking.

I'm not sure what to do about voting. I posted a comment suggesting that people vote based on the quality of the feedback the entrant gave, but trying to aggregate all of an entrant's comments is more work than I expect most people will do. My guess is the scores will be mostly based on the image and a little bit based on the feedback the entrant gave.

Submissions start in a week. I have no idea how well it will work or if anyone will even enter, but I thought I might as well try it out and see. Let me know what you think of the idea and if you have suggestions for improvement for next time.
Click to expand...
The objective is fine, but what do you intend to do about the quality of the entries? If 7 out of 10 people submit poor snapshots, the challenge old be nothing but an underperforming idea and all your efforts go down the drain.
Click to expand...
When I got my first camera, I spent a lot of effort on photos that now look to me like snapshots. Feedback would have helped me develop my skills much faster. I don't want to discriminate based on the skill of the photographer, because beginners need the most help.
Click to expand...
First of all I think I want to enter this challenge cos I have a 1/10th chance to win. I have to beat 9 ppl (at the same time dropping unflattering comments about their shots) and the crown is mine. Like taking candy from a baby....muahaha..

Secondly, at first I thought you wanted landscape with ppl. Then I reread and thought you wanted llandscapes which look like some breasts or shapely thighs of a woman (as an example)

Kindly clarify?
Click to expand...
if everyone drop 9 comments, the whole anonymity thing will be blown. I would suggest you make everyone comment on all entries, including their own.
Click to expand...
You raise a good point. Anonymity is not important for this challenge, but it does throw a wrench in the idea of voting based on the entrant's comments. You'd have to deduce who each entrant is based on who didn't comment on their entry, and then aggregate all their critiques from the other entries.

Regarding the theme, I meant landscape showing human influence (buildings, infrastructure, farming, etc.).
 
One of the nice things is that this challenge really lasts for 2 weeks, not one. (It seems that the main point of this challenge is the comments--and not the actual votes.) People can leave comments this week (the submission phase) and, of course, next week during the "voting phase."

Hopefully, there will be lots of meaningful feedback (positive and constructive). Since this feedback will not be anonymous, it will be interesting to see if this affects the quality and/or honesty of the critiques.
 
santamonica812 said:
santamonica812 wrote:

One of the nice things is that this challenge really lasts for 2 weeks, not one. (It seems that the main point of this challenge is the comments--and not the actual votes.) People can leave comments this week (the submission phase) and, of course, next week during the "voting phase."

Hopefully, there will be lots of meaningful feedback (positive and constructive). Since this feedback will not be anonymous, it will be interesting to see if this affects the quality and/or honesty of the critiques.
Click to expand...
I agree with you - this mainly focus on the comments and not so much the voting (the process of which is riddled with flaws anyway).

Constructive feedback/comments is what it should be indeed - enabling the photographer to grow and learn from others and they others perceive the image - sometimes (most times?) one is sort of biased of one's own shots - some too negative, some too positive - depending on how big a self crit one is. I tend to over crit my own shots and shoot down the most of them - by far.

Although there are many forums on DPR, I would like to see one exclusively for CRITIQUE irrespective of camera brand etc etc - purely to have it all in one place and not scaterred all over the show.

Regards from South Africa

Andrè

PS: I was of the opinion that we are to comment on the other 9 entries only during the voting phase (per the challenge's rules?) and I will do so then - I perhaps not the best crit but will offer my 2c worth of how I see the entry anyway. YOUR comments are the way it should be - with showing the pro's & con's. Also - thanks for your comments on my entry - much appreciated.
 
Andre W said:
Andre W wrote:
Andre W said:
santamonica812 wrote:

One of the nice things is that this challenge really lasts for 2 weeks, not one. (It seems that the main point of this challenge is the comments--and not the actual votes.) People can leave comments this week (the submission phase) and, of course, next week during the "voting phase."

Hopefully, there will be lots of meaningful feedback (positive and constructive). Since this feedback will not be anonymous, it will be interesting to see if this affects the quality and/or honesty of the critiques.
Click to expand...
I agree with you - this mainly focus on the comments and not so much the voting (the process of which is riddled with flaws anyway).

Constructive feedback/comments is what it should be indeed - enabling the photographer to grow and learn from others and they others perceive the image - sometimes (most times?) one is sort of biased of one's own shots - some too negative, some too positive - depending on how big a self crit one is. I tend to over crit my own shots and shoot down the most of them - by far.

Although there are many forums on DPR, I would like to see one exclusively for CRITIQUE irrespective of camera brand etc etc - purely to have it all in one place and not scaterred all over the show.

Regards from South Africa

Andrè

PS: I was of the opinion that we are to comment on the other 9 entries only during the voting phase (per the challenge's rules?) and I will do so then - I perhaps not the best crit but will offer my 2c worth of how I see the entry anyway. YOUR comments are the way it should be - with showing the pro's & con's. Also - thanks for your comments on my entry - much appreciated.

--
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3813155114
Click to expand...
No problem Andre. I hope I was not too harsh with your image. Actually, I took a look at the feedback I gave, and I'm pretty comfortable with it. I see that I said a lot of positive comments, and also, a lot of critical comments . . . some extremely critical. But nothing that was off-target, I hope . . . I think that even those who disagree with my comments will acknowledge the possible merits of my critiques. (I don't know which image you entered, so I'm not sure if your photo was great (to my eyes), was one of the images that was okay, or was a photo that was puzzling and challenging for me. Let's keep it a mystery for me until the challenge is over.) :-)

This is the one challenge where I don't care at all about voting, sandbagging, etc. I just hope there are tons of great feedback given, by many many people, for each image. I already see that there are some healthy debates about use of negative space, cropping decisions, etc. That's exactly what I am hoping to see continue for the next 2 weeks.

--
http://www.pbase.com/santamonica
 
Last edited:
santamonica812 said:
santamonica812 wrote:
santamonica812 said:
Andre W wrote:
santamonica812 said:
santamonica812 wrote:

One of the nice things is that this challenge really lasts for 2 weeks, not one. (It seems that the main point of this challenge is the comments--and not the actual votes.) People can leave comments this week (the submission phase) and, of course, next week during the "voting phase."

Hopefully, there will be lots of meaningful feedback (positive and constructive). Since this feedback will not be anonymous, it will be interesting to see if this affects the quality and/or honesty of the critiques.
Click to expand...
I agree with you - this mainly focus on the comments and not so much the voting (the process of which is riddled with flaws anyway).

Constructive feedback/comments is what it should be indeed - enabling the photographer to grow and learn from others and they others perceive the image - sometimes (most times?) one is sort of biased of one's own shots - some too negative, some too positive - depending on how big a self crit one is. I tend to over crit my own shots and shoot down the most of them - by far.

Although there are many forums on DPR, I would like to see one exclusively for CRITIQUE irrespective of camera brand etc etc - purely to have it all in one place and not scaterred all over the show.

Regards from South Africa

Andrè

PS: I was of the opinion that we are to comment on the other 9 entries only during the voting phase (per the challenge's rules?) and I will do so then - I perhaps not the best crit but will offer my 2c worth of how I see the entry anyway. YOUR comments are the way it should be - with showing the pro's & con's. Also - thanks for your comments on my entry - much appreciated.

--
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3813155114
Click to expand...
No problem Andre. I hope I was not too harsh with your image. Actually, I took a look at the feedback I gave, and I'm pretty comfortable with it. I see that I said a lot of positive comments, and also, a lot of critical comments . . . some extremely critical. But nothing that was off-target, I hope . . . I think that even those who disagree with my comments will acknowledge the possible merits of my critiques. (I don't know which image you entered, so I'm not sure if your photo was great (to my eyes), was one of the images that was okay, or was a photo that was puzzling and challenging for me. Let's keep it a mystery for me until the challenge is over.) :-)

This is the one challenge where I don't care at all about voting, sandbagging, etc. I just hope there are tons of great feedback given, by many many people, for each image. I already see that there are some healthy debates about use of negative space, cropping decisions, etc. That's exactly what I am hoping to see continue for the next 2 weeks.

--
http://www.pbase.com/santamonica
Click to expand...
Some of the people who entered might not care about the feedback either. They might only care about nailing the champion's title. Not that there's anything nothing wrong about that....

Just saying..
 
Member said:
Some of the people who entered might not care about the feedback either. They might only care about nailing the champion's title. Not that there's anything nothing wrong about that....

Just saying..
Click to expand...
You may, of course, end up being correct. But I am heartened to say that I think not. Based on the types of images submitted, I think people took the host's challenge to heart. I entered a type of photo that I've not submitted to any other challenge. Another person submitted a selective desaturation; a few others submitted landscape photos with no land at all in the images. And another person submitted a very unusual, almost abstract, image that might be an effort to redefine the very notion of what is a landscape photo. None of these would have been entered (in my opinion) by a photographer whose primary goal was to win a voting tally. I think they are genuinely interested in feedback...what we viewers liked, what we hated, and what we viewers are indifferent about. It's certainly true for me. And, I suspect, true for all/most of the other entrants.
 
I really like the idea behind this challenge. I only wish that the limit could have been set to 30 instead of 10. The challenge is already full so from that perspective it is a success.

The only other comment that I would make is that another rule should be introduced to ensure that EVERYONE comments on all the other photos or they will be disqualified.

Great idea! I look forward to reading the comments.
 
I came back from a trip (with lots of photographs!) to find the challenge full too so I agree with all that was said appreciating this challenge. Even so, I loved seeing the photos entered and reading the comments under them,. So I really hope we can have another challenge like this again in the near future. and with a few more entries allowed (I can't believe I am saying this as it is usually the reverse! LOL).

What came over so beautifully in this challenge was the genuine friendly sharing of a love of photography between everyone. Photography can be a lonely occupation so it was really lovely to see strangers relating and helping each other to improve their photography, whatever standard they are.
 
jrarsenault said:
jrarsenault wrote:

I really like the idea behind this challenge. I only wish that the limit could have been set to 30 instead of 10. The challenge is already full so from that perspective it is a success.

The only other comment that I would make is that another rule should be introduced to ensure that EVERYONE comments on all the other photos or they will be disqualified.

Great idea! I look forward to reading the comments.
Click to expand...
From the additional rules of the challenge:

"You must comment on every other entry during the voting phase, at a minimum saying something you liked and suggesting a way to improve the photo. On the last day of voting entrants who have not fulfilled this requirement will be disqualified."

;-)
 
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