I'm an idiot.... or am I?

Like a number of others already on this forum, I recently sold all my SLR gear (5dII + 7d + L lenses) and bought an X Pro 1 with the 14mm, 35, and 55-200. (This has nothing to do with the idiot thing by the way - I'm getting to that). I already have an X100s which was getting far more use - hence the change.

Last night I was out taking some evening pics and I wanted to use the 14mm in manual focus mode - but it had jammed. Try as I might I couldn't get the focus ring to turn. I came dangerously close to using excessive force. Had I dropped it? Had I dropped something on it in the bag?

No - those of you who have this lens will have already guessed. The 14mm has a quirky focus ring that you have to slide forward to engage manual focus mode. 6 weeks only into ownership and thinking more about the shot than the gear I forgot this. Fortunately I remembered just before I got frustrated and ham-fisted and all was well. HOWEVER...

Last weekend I was at a barbecue with an acquaintance who is a pro photographer - he was interested in my abandonment of SLRs, but called out the Fuji X series as "too fiddly" and "too fussy" for pro work. Until last night and my focus ring episode I had dismissed his view - but on reflection he may have a point.

Each lens working the same way with a common user interface seems eminently sensible. I have no idea why Fuji threw this curve ball of a focus ring at us - which doesn't appear on the other x-series lenses. But if they're going to seriously crack the pro market, perhaps useability will have to feature as highly as IQ in their thinking.

Conclusion - I am an idiot - but maybe not the only one.

If I were a pro, I'd have Phase One gear. The fact that some people are making money out of using X-series cameras is remarkable and the fact that I could afford one is even better

Simon Elwell said:

Simon Elwell wrote:

6 weeks only into ownership and thinking more about the shot than the gear I forgot this.

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Congratulations, you have reached the next level in photography! This is what it's all about, isn't it? Don't think about the gear but focus on the image and the result!

Simon Elwell said:

Last weekend I was at a barbecue with an acquaintance who is a pro photographer - he was interested in my abandonment of SLRs, but called out the Fuji X series as "too fiddly" and "too fussy" for pro work. Until last night and my focus ring episode I had dismissed his view - but on reflection he may have a point.

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I have been using my Canon 5D MK II for almost 5 years now. And still I am constantly fiddling around the settings and menus more than I should. I have to think more about the gear and settings than with my Fujis. So this hardly makes the difference between a "Pro" or "Amateur" camera.

The camera should be the right tool for the job that you need it for. It is up to you what you make of it. A Nikon D4 or Canon 5D MK III will be the better tool for action/sports photography or for rough weather conditions. But I see no reason why the Fuji should not be "Pro" worthy enough for wedding, portrait, landscape or street photography?

You have only used you Fuji for 6 weeks. Give it some more time to get used to it. The MF mechanism of the 14mm is perfect for me and I hope that Fuji will expand this feature to other lenses like the XF 56mm f1.2 - so in that respect I would support the desire that Fuji should have this feature on all of their lenses

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Cheers,
Smatty
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I would think not. The best thing I ever did was get rid of my 7D I hated that camera more than any camera I ever owned. (another story that had to do with image noise). I had bought an XE-1 when it first came out with 18-55mm lens. I found myself adapting adapting a Micro Nikkor lens to it for shooting macros. I really liked the small format. I am able to use nealy any lens I wish with it via adapters. It is really quite versatile.

I decided I wanted another body and a 14mm lens, so I bought a Xpro-1 with a 14 & 35mm so I traded in my 7D, the seldom used 70-200 and an EFS-60 for the Xpro.

In the end I am glad I bought into the fuji X system because the images I am getting I think are better, the high ISO/low light performance is way better than the 7D. I tend to do slower more deliberate work & the X-series fits my shooting style just fine. I can now carry two bodies and some lenses in a mall light package. Yes there are some quirks & oddities, but nothing one cannot deal with. AF could definitely use some improvement before I would consider it a replacement for a DSLR.

I did keep my 5DII and 24-105 a flash or two and some primes ranging from 24 to 400mm. something about the 5DII that I like and use it when it is appropriate. But the Fuji system is and can be used for commercial or paid pro work if that work is appropriate for it's operating parameters. I hardly think it is is a toy or gimmick. And yes the 14mm is a bit of a departure from the other XF lenses, but what a nice lens it is.

I agree the 14mm slide-for-manual is a quality "switch". That being the case - why not have the same paradigm on all the xf lenses?

I'm not moaning (much!) but I do understand my friend's point of view that having the same switch in the same position on all lenses is an advantage of you're switching between lenses in a hurry.

Not regretting the move away from DSLR at all...

Simon,

you are not an idiot at all. Once in a while I use a Sigma 15-30mm on the X-E1 and the Ricoh GXR M in manual mode, but mostly with the Nikon D700 and then by autofocus. This lens has a similar device in switching from AF to manual mode by moving the focus ring backwards, when set to AF, to obtain the manual setting. It happened on numerous occasions when trying to use it manually on mentioned cameras that I had moments wondering why the lens wouldn't focus manually until remembering the knack of it.

As for your sold gear I can only state, by my humble comparisons, that the X-E1 is delivering the same quality and in high ISO even better results than the D700. The autofocus speed on the Nikon, however, is extremely quick and obtaining the correct focus using manual lenses requires less concentration by means of the arrows and the green dot. I wish they could implement something similar on the Fuji X-E1 as it would make the current focus peaking, which in my opinion cannot compare to Ricoh's GXR mode 1 or 2, obsolete.

Brgds
Michael (Vienna)

Too fiddly? Hardly. My lowly 6D is far more complicated than my X-E1.

Also the 14mm design is not uncommon and can be found on many lenses. Canons constant manual override isn't available on all lenses. Not all lenses have IS or focus limiters either. Even the L's don't all have weather sealing, some have built in hoods where others don't. It is all a bit normal really.

I think you are doing just fine. Sometimes we all have these 'moments', by 'Pro' shooters are normally very intimate with their gear and eventually you get to know these things like the back of your hand, or like driving - Drive a different car with the wiper on the other side and for a few weeks you'll occasionally hit the indicators when you mean to grab the wipers. No big deal. After a short while you'll have trouble going the other way around

Simon Elwell said:

Simon Elwell wrote:

Like a number of others already on this forum, I recently sold all my SLR gear (5dII + 7d + L lenses) and bought an X Pro 1 with the 14mm, 35, and 55-200. (This has nothing to do with the idiot thing by the way - I'm getting to that). I already have an X100s which was getting far more use - hence the change.

Last night I was out taking some evening pics and I wanted to use the 14mm in manual focus mode - but it had jammed. Try as I might I couldn't get the focus ring to turn. I came dangerously close to using excessive force. Had I dropped it? Had I dropped something on it in the bag?

No - those of you who have this lens will have already guessed. The 14mm has a quirky focus ring that you have to slide forward to engage manual focus mode. 6 weeks only into ownership and thinking more about the shot than the gear I forgot this. Fortunately I remembered just before I got frustrated and ham-fisted and all was well. HOWEVER...

Last weekend I was at a barbecue with an acquaintance who is a pro photographer - he was interested in my abandonment of SLRs, but called out the Fuji X series as "too fiddly" and "too fussy" for pro work. Until last night and my focus ring episode I had dismissed his view - but on reflection he may have a point.

Each lens working the same way with a common user interface seems eminently sensible. I have no idea why Fuji threw this curve ball of a focus ring at us - which doesn't appear on the other x-series lenses. But if they're going to seriously crack the pro market, perhaps useability will have to feature as highly as IQ in their thinking.

Conclusion - I am an idiot - but maybe not the only one.

Click to expand...

Plenty of pros use a fuji x. Sure it has quirks and it isn't designed to duplicate a pro slr body. Anyone that thinks a 5d isn't fiddly hasn't ever tried putting one in to video mode, but that's a horse of another color.

Anyway, at some point, there was a period of adjustment in which you learned to adapt to the 5d as a system. You'll just need to do so again. whether it's with fuji, nikon, or even a 5dmkiii. Surely, a lens adjustment isn't enough to derail you.

smatty said:

smatty wrote:
A Nikon D4 or Canon 5D MK III will be the better tool for action/sports photography or for rough weather conditions. But I see no reason why the Fuji should not be "Pro" worthy enough for wedding, portrait, landscape or street photography?

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I can see plenty of reasons. If it was simply IQ, I would agree, but there is no way a FUJI would be able to keep pace with the demands of a wedding photographic assignment. As it is, I miss countless shots when subjects are moving around, and would hate to even try shooting a wedding with one.

Simon Elwell said:

Simon Elwell wrote:

Last weekend I was at a barbecue with an acquaintance who is a pro photographer - he was interested in my abandonment of SLRs, but called out the Fuji X series as "too fiddly" and "too fussy" for pro work.Until last night and my focus ring episode I had dismissed his view - but on reflection he may have a point.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. FUJI make nice sensors, imaging engines and optics, but they have given no thought to professionals if they were ever serious about that market. I just picked up an Xpro and love it because I only bought it for practicality - travel and P&S applications. In spite of the lovely IQ, I wouldn't dare use if for paid work.

And I agree the cameras are too fussy and fiddly. I just made the same observation on another thread. The camera feels like an Iphone, not a serious tool for pro photographers. The shutter lag, the lag in powering up, the fiddly menus, the ergonomics, the AF, the lousy buffer etc.

And the point you raised about the lenses working differently is a very crucial point. A Canon or Nikon shooter doesn't have to think about how each lens works, because the system has been thought out and well designed. I get the feeling that FUJI designed a great sensor, optics and imaging engine and that the body and design were an afterthought.

Simon Elwell said:

But if they're going to seriously crack the pro market, perhaps useability will have to feature as highly as IQ in their thinking.

Click to expand...

Exactly, which means that it will need another iteration of all the lenses and bodies to ever crack the pro market, not to mention a lot more processing grunt.

3 months after switching from DSLR to the X system (XP1) and still learning how to properly react to setting changes.

Focus ring: I am not a fan of those "focus by wire" stuff. I would rather use a classic focus ring with a written scale, however thanks to the last firmware and its FP, manual focus is easier.

gerard boulanger said:

gerard boulanger wrote:

3 months after switching from DSLR to the X system (XP1) and still learning how to properly react to setting changes.

Focus ring: I am not a fan of those "focus by wire" stuff. I would rather use a classic focus ring with a written scale, however thanks to the last firmware and its FP, manual focus is easier.

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The 14mm referred to in this thread HAS a written distance and depth of field scale. It's the only Fuji lens that does. It's a great design, in my opinion, but you do have to remember...

SubPrime said:

SubPrime wrote:

SubPrime said:

Simon Elwell wrote:

Last weekend I was at a barbecue with an acquaintance who is a pro photographer - he was interested in my abandonment of SLRs, but called out the Fuji X series as "too fiddly" and "too fussy" for pro work.Until last night and my focus ring episode I had dismissed his view - but on reflection he may have a point.

Click to expand...

I completely agree. FUJI make nice sensors, imaging engines and optics, but they have given no thought to professionals if they were ever serious about that market. I just picked up an Xpro and love it because I only bought it for practicality - travel and P&S applications. In spite of the lovely IQ, I wouldn't dare use if for paid work.

And I agree the cameras are too fussy and fiddly. I just made the same observation on another thread. The camera feels like an Iphone, not a serious tool for pro photographers. The shutter lag, the lag in powering up, the fiddly menus, the ergonomics, the AF, the lousy buffer etc.

And the point you raised about the lenses working differently is a very crucial point. A Canon or Nikon shooter doesn't have to think about how each lens works, because the system has been thought out and well designed. I get the feeling that FUJI designed a great sensor, optics and imaging engine and that the body and design were an afterthought.

SubPrime said:

But if they're going to seriously crack the pro market, perhaps useability will have to feature as highly as IQ in their thinking.

Click to expand...

Exactly, which means that it will need another iteration of all the lenses and bodies to ever crack the pro market, not to mention a lot more processing grunt.

Click to expand...

Pro-market issues aside, the well-conceived Fuji body and design is the reason some of us bought into the system. The physical controls (and their placement) beats anything else in the market.

You must have one heck of an iphone. Sheesh... My XE-1 has negligible shutter lag (once AF is locked), sensible menus including convenient Q menu access, great ergonomics, and a decent buffer with a fast SD card. AF is reasonable, but clearly not quick. There is every indication that not only was the hardware design well considered, but that Fuji engineers were creative in reaching back to an old design that served many well over the years. A great implementation that has room to grow and improve. Have you ever actually held an Iphone?

SubPrime said:

SubPrime said:

smatty wrote:
A Nikon D4 or Canon 5D MK III will be the better tool for action/sports photography or for rough weather conditions. But I see no reason why the Fuji should not be "Pro" worthy enough for wedding, portrait, landscape or street photography?

Click to expand...

I can see plenty of reasons. If it was simply IQ, I would agree, but there is no way a FUJI would be able to keep pace with the demands of a wedding photographic assignment. As it is, I miss countless shots when subjects are moving around, and would hate to even try shooting a wedding with one.

Click to expand...

Professionals have shot for decades and still shoot with MF film cameras. Even wedding photographers. It all depends on how you shoot. Some need lighting fast AF, face detection and auto exposure, others don't. There's no right or wrong way, just preferences.

As for differences between lenses. For my DSLR set up I use Canon L glass and there are certainly variations in lens design. Some have mechanical MF others focus by wire, some have limit switches while others don't, some have barrels that extend others don't, Some have AF others are MF only... Eventually you get used to all the subtle differences and they become second nature.

Reading that the Fuji is "fiddly, inconsistent" and all the other things mentioned here suggests that there's a little bit of perspective missing.

The X series is not alone in having one-offs in the ranks. I've shot Nikon gear for probably 15 years, and they make Fujifilm look like a model of consistency. Push pull zoom versus ring zoom. Is the zoom ring closest to the camera, or is the focus ring? Does the lens have an aperture ring? If it does, does it have one, two that need to be in sync, or none? Two bodies that are adjacent to each other in the model lineup have enough inconsistencies in controls between them that most photographers I know who carry a lower-end backup will miss shots because controls are in different places or behave differently.

If you buy anything other than Nikkors, the direction in which your focus ring turns could be different depending on the lens manufacturer. (Fuji got this right... you can set up your focus rings to turn all in a consistent direction based on other cameras you use most.) FYI, a lens with a focus ring turning direction different than the manufacturer's direction will autofocus more slowly because the body assumes a direction.

In terms of speed of startup, speed of response - two Panasonic m4/3 bodies, or two Olympus, introduced at the same time, will be differently slow.

the problem isn't the 14mm having a push to AF capability...it is that the engineers had so little faith in the concept that they didn't put it on every lens. Love it. My favorite micro 4/3 lenses have the same control mechanism.

engineers hate thinking too hard about user interface issues. Or at least the pervasiveness of UI weirdness suggests that.

Seriously??? Regarding your title- I don't want to judge you and/or your friend, but the facts kind of speak out in this case. I'd assume that if you drop $900 on a camera lens you would at least read the manual. And just how hard is it to remember that you have to pull on the ring? And if you try to turn it and it does not, it's a pretty strong mental cue that you need to push the ring. Just how hard is that ? I don't know your friend, but I thought fiddly interfaces many many buttons. To claim that a push to switch to MF is "fiddly" is ridiculous, if anything its way faster than flipping a switch on the body or diving into the menus. Just my 0.02...

of course I did read the manual - and yes, I knew that the lens had a different interface but being human I forgot.

My friend - more of an acquaintance really - wasn't speaking specifically about the 14mm pull-to-MF feature - it was more of a general comment and as he's someone who earns a living, supports a family and pays the bills using his cameras I respect his opinion. I've never had the pressure of having to get the shot to pay the rent so I can only admire those who are able to make their living from my hobby.

Until you have made all of the dumb mistakes you possibly can, you are not familiar with your gear.


A couple of examples: when I started using my new 55-200, I have intermittent autofocusing problems. Sometimes the autofocus worked fine. Then for no apparent reason it would only autofocus on nearby objects. I even said some not so complimentary things about the lens and was abut to call Fuji service. I then discovered that I had accidently from time to time put the camera in "macro" mode. Turns out it is easy to inadvertently push the macro and OK buttons at the same time.

For on location portraits, I use a pair of canon 580 EXII speedlites. Suddenly, I was getting overexposed pictures. I swapped the lights, and everything settled down. I encountered this on another shoot. I tried to recreate the situation using various combinations of my three speedlites. Everything worked perfectly. Then I discovered that pushing a particular button twice puts the camera in flash bracketing mode.

I am sure I will make other mistakes, but have learned not to fix blame first on my equipment.

Simon Elwell said:

Simon Elwell wrote:

of course I did read the manual - and yes, I knew that the lens had a different interface but being human I forgot.

My friend - more of an acquaintance really - wasn't speaking specifically about the 14mm pull-to-MF feature - it was more of a general comment and as he's someone who earns a living, supports a family and pays the bills using his cameras I respect his opinion. I've never had the pressure of having to get the shot to pay the rent so I can only admire those who are able to make their living from my hobby.

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being human is understandable. Expecting a manufacturer to compensate for normal human errors is perhaps a bit too much to ask for, don't you think?

I don't fully understand your friends complaint. My point is that the interface design has very little to do with the suitability of the camera for pro use. Anyone who earns their living with a camera knows the interface inside out, so overtime that becomes a non-issue. I agree with him that no mirrorless system is suitable for pro use right now, although that highly depends on what you define as pro use. If you are taking pictures of an event, a game of a concert, you will be a fool to use a mirrorless instead of an SLR (and that includes a Leica - even through the pictures are every bit as spectacular, the speed is compromised enough to make it an odd choice). If you shoot anything that ends up in a gallery (landscapes, street, fine art etc. a mirrorless is probably good enough these days. There is still a quality gap (don't believe me, rent a pro full frame body and an f2.8 zoom and shoot with it for a day). It's considered a pro equipment for a reason. Canon 1D interface is as removed from a classic photography experience as they get, yet it's extremely effective and fast and you can do just about everything with it in less than a few seconds. That's why it's pro-level gear.

If anything the Fuji interface is a benefit to an amateur, because it makes the "green square" (i.e. the "idiot auto" mode) less accessible. Its always tempting to put a pro-SLR in the full auto mode (and you get spectacular images 99.9% of the time). Fuji does force you to make a bit more choices, and it's a good thing for a non-pro.

I love the pull-to-MF design, but I also know that the way Canon implemented that with USM lenses (full-time MF) is much faster- you can simply adjust the focus manually at any time, and you can AF at any time. Fuji's way is marginally slower, but it feels better and that's more important for me. I'm sure a working pro does not give a damn about it... Its good to have choice in the marketplace,

you are not an idiot. There are also a lot of great replies here. I would have preferred to see the same set up from lens to lens as well and have not investigated the Fuji logic yet but once I got used to it it was fine to work with.

Opinions are just that. Some are educated and some are not. I have been involved in taking pictures for over 60 years and worked for Nikon for 33 of them. Today to many people call themselves pros when in reality they are no more than middle of the pack that is out there. I can point out many pro's using Fuji X cameras for weddings as well as Leica cameras and have no issues capturing the moment. Is a Dslr faster. Yes. Is an experienced real pro going to get the picture yes.

The Fuji compared to almost any Dslr in the business today is a simple straight forward camera system to use. It is certainly more intuitive and in the end will probably make a beginner and better advanced photographer and a advanced photographer possibly a real pro. So I have to totally disagree with your friend the pro. But of course we are all entitled to an opinion

Concentrate on shooting and getting it right and mastering the gear you have.

Good luck and all the best.