JPEG for the PROs: achieving "Minolta colours" with a D-SLT ?

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

Hi folks,

I was worried how you can setting up your camera, to get "Minolta colours" from your SLT.

I had a D7D with his marvelous colours, what was (one of) the reason/s of the collaboration and sharing technologies between Konica films division & Minolta the optician and instruments factory.

I used many photos successfully for press magazine (many years). Most of the time without the need to PP. Of course I shoot raw+jpeg, most of the time, but I believe about the paradigm:

— «exposing well in-camera to PP a few..».

So the point of this thread is about how to setting up your WB to get Minolta colours

(with an SLT, and as D7D does).

Later, I've never been convinced about the switch from CCD to CMOS, for good reasons (the first generation was a tad flat and dull, comparing to..), but the advantages and serious improvement about EVF-SLT technologies made me take the plunge and buying an A37 to experiment and knowing better whats happen with it.

Below some tests with in-camera jpeg ONLY.

I use all these setting as default:

— Mode [A] Apperture priority;

— Colour space: AdobeRGB;

— No "Picture effect";

— No "Creative style" => std;

— No DR optimization (for the test)

— ISO 100;

— Metering mode: "Center wheited"

— JPEG "fine" or "xFine" (D7D);

— Contrast = 0

— Saturation = +1

— Sharpness = +1 (D7D) +2 (A37)

— WB: I used "manual WB" (and sometimes 5800°K or 7400°K but I confess in this case: it's not WB-alanced)

in-camera JPEG, KM-D7D, with customized in-camera WB

Above I trying to match the "Minolta colours" with the A37, with a customized WB (7400°K B2 M1). And after many different settings, this one seems to be the best one.

The green match (but continue to be a tad yellowish comparing to the pure colour of the Minolta), but the sky suffer of a lack of red/magenta a lot.

I can do with Photoshop (Green: HUE + 7, Blue HUE + 4) and I can get similiar result, but the question is: do is it possible to get it straight from camera. Do a top of the line SLT (A77, A99) can setting the Hue?

Kind Regards,

PS: so, for now, I conclude that nothing can compare to the D7D about coulours, imho.

--

Michel J
« Having the latest gear is nice, but great photographers don't have to have it. They can shoot good stuff with anything »

moimoi · Aug 19, 2013

Shooting raw and you get every thing you want.
--
If I don't answer you, you are most likely being blacklisted...

tbcass · Aug 19, 2013

Since no camera produces "pure" and totally accurate colors it comes down to personal preference. I used to own an A100 which had a 10mp CMOS sensor and have to admit the colors were nice but since the SLT's are superior in every other way I sold the A100.

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

moimoi said:
moimoi wrote:

Shooting raw and you get every thing you want.

I shoot all the time .RAW+JPEG (as I'm refering to), so it seem's to be you don't read my post.

You can't shoot .raw only if you not setting up the WB of your camera in-the-field as required, because later is to late (for many reaons, like bad exposure or metamerism, and so on...)

So your point is OOT since we don't talk here to shoot .raw.

As maybe you know, many pro's shoot JPEG, what tell to us well-exposing your photos is required, (because they don't want to spend time in PP).

By the way, an EVF is the door wide open to shoot in-camera JPEG, because it's WYSIWYG.

So no question about shooting .raw in this thread, sorry.

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

tbcass said:
tbcass wrote:

Since no camera produces "pure" and totally accurate colors it comes down to personal preference. I used to own an A100 which had a 10mp CMOS sensor and have to admit the colors were nice but since the SLT's are superior in every other way I sold the A100.

VirtualMirage · Aug 19, 2013

tbcass said:
tbcass wrote:

Since no camera produces "pure" and totally accurate colors it comes down to personal preference. I used to own an A100 which had a 10mp CMOS sensor and have to admit the colors were nice but since the SLT's are superior in every other way I sold the A100.

tbcass · Aug 19, 2013

VirtualMirage said:
VirtualMirage wrote:

VirtualMirage said:

tbcass wrote:

Since no camera produces "pure" and totally accurate colors it comes down to personal preference. I used to own an A100 which had a 10mp CMOS sensor and have to admit the colors were nice but since the SLT's are superior in every other way I sold the A100.

Click to expand...

Of course I know that. Just a brain "fart".

moimoi · Aug 19, 2013

Michel J said:
Michel J wrote:

So your point is OOT since we don't talk here to shoot .raw.

My point was that you won't have to shoot jpg if you shoot raw ;-) In other words, you do not need to worry about the WB before post-processing. It will save you a lot of time. If you are worried with this, get a grey card!

Cheers,

moimoi

--
If I don't answer you, you are most likely being blacklisted...

VirtualMirage · Aug 19, 2013

Michel J said:
Michel J wrote:

Michel J said:

moimoi wrote:

Shooting raw and you get every thing you want.

Click to expand...

I shoot all the time .RAW+JPEG (as I'm refering to), so it seem's to be you don't read my post.

I read your post from beginning to end and still find that a valid comment.

Michel J said:
You can't shoot .raw only if you not setting up the WB of your camera in-the-field as required, because later is to late (for many reaons, like bad exposure or metamerism, and so on...)

Sure you can. What makes RAW less useful in the field than JPEG?

Actually, you are much more screwed with JPEG if you don't set up your WB as close to correct as possible while in the field than you are with RAW. With JPEG the WB is baked in, RAW is not. Having said that, it is always helpful to try and get your WB correct regardless of what format you choose.

If you follow the proper methods as you would JPEG, your RAWs would be just as good plus the added headroom you get. And if you are in a tight spot or on the off chance something didn't come out as expected, the RAW file gives you more headroom.

Michel J said:
So your point is OOT since we don't talk here to shoot .raw.

As maybe you know, many pro's shoot JPEG, what tell to us well-exposing your photos is required, (because they don't want to spend time in PP).

Which pros are you referring to? The ones I know shoot RAW. JPEGs are useful for journalists and news photographers that need to shoot and upload quickly from the field whose pictures are going to be posted as a small capture on a web news article or degraded on a newspaper print. But get a pro who shoots in the studio, shoots weddings, landscapes, architecture, etc. and you will find many shoot RAW. Batch processing is what keeps the PP time down. Having good presets in Lightroom can also cut down on your time and may even save you from having to do any PP work.

JPEGs are limited from the get go. Not only are your results canned (or baked in as some may say) from the camera, limiting the flexibility you have in post process, they are only limited to 8-bits per channel (256 levels). RAWs are 12-bit and up per channel (4,096 levels and more). This limits the amount of possible colors/shades, your dynamic range, and your ability to recover detail that lay in the extremes.

RAW files, unlike JPEGs, are color space agnostic. JPEGs are predefined as to what color space they were intended for, usually being SRGB and on the rare occasion AdobeRGB. You chose AdobeRGB for you JPEGs. You can convert them in post processing later, but the added information that a color space may provide is lost if you choose to go to a larger color space. RAW files will tag what color space you set in the camera, but it is only a reference for when using an editor that doesn't define what color space to use. Lightroom uses ProPhotoRGB (no choice to change this), so that is what the RAW pictures will be working in. It is when you export your picture will you get the option to convert to a different color space.

Also, I hope you are not viewing your AdobeRGB JPEGs on an SRGB monitor or posting them on the web before converting them to SRGB. If not handled properly via your workflow, your colors may never look or come out the way you intended if you do that.

Michel J said:
By the way, an EVF is the door wide open to shoot in-camera JPEG, because it's WYSIWYG.

Yes and no. It gives a closer approximate of what you may see on your monitor as a final image, but it might not show you exactly what you see. This is especially true if you are not shooting SRGB. This was at least true with my A700, and maybe someone else who has their camera on hand now can confirm this still holds true with the newer cameras (since I shoot RAW only, I have stopped messing with this long ago). What you see in the EVF prior to taking the picture may still be in an SRGB type color space but when reviewing the image after taking the shot may look different due to the AdobeRGB color space being set.

The EVF works great for either format because it allows you to do live compensation and get a rough idea of how it will effect the final image. This holds true for both JPEG and RAW. It isn't a JPEG exclusive benefit.

Now that I have cleared up the misconceptions about RAW, I will agree that your post is about making JPEGs have that "Minolta Color" look. You were not asking directly for other options that could give you the ability to reproduce this look, but you also didn't disclaim at the very beginning that you didn't want to be given those options. Because of that, Moimoi's comment is a valid one (just not one you would accept for yourself).

sybersitizen · Aug 19, 2013

Michel J said:
I can do with Photoshop (Green: HUE + 7, Blue HUE + 4) and I can get similiar result, but the question is: do is it possible to get it straight from camera. Do a top of the line SLT (A77, A99) can setting the Hue?

It is sometimes hard to get a direct answer to a question here, isn't it? The answer is no, the other recent SLTs offer the same white balance controls as the A37.

Michel J said:
PS: so, for now, I conclude that nothing can compare to the D7D about coulours, imho.

I don't think you will ever accurately match the 7D colors in-camera with any Sony model.

VirtualMirage · Aug 19, 2013

Michel J said:
Michel J wrote:

Above I trying to match the "Minolta colours" with the A37, with a customized WB (7400°K B2 M1). And after many different settings, this one seems to be the best one.

The green match (but continue to be a tad yellowish comparing to the pure colour of the Minolta), but the sky suffer of a lack of red/magenta a lot.

I can do with Photoshop (Green: HUE + 7, Blue HUE + 4) and I can get similiar result, but the question is: do is it possible to get it straight from camera. Do a top of the line SLT (A77, A99) can setting the Hue?

Kind Regards,

PS: so, for now, I conclude that nothing can compare to the D7D about coulours, imho.

--

Michel J
« Having the latest gear is nice, but great photographers don't have to have it. They can shoot good stuff with anything »

I can't confirm if your A37 has this, but the A77 and A99 allows you to fine tune your WB further via a 2-axis "graph". This mode lets you adjust the white balance in the amber-blue and green-magenta directions. This might help you get closer to what you are trying to achieve within the camera.

sybersitizen · Aug 19, 2013

sybersitizen said:
sybersitizen wrote:

sybersitizen said:

I can do with Photoshop (Green: HUE + 7, Blue HUE + 4) and I can get similiar result, but the question is: do is it possible to get it straight from camera. Do a top of the line SLT (A77, A99) can setting the Hue?

Click to expand...

It is sometimes hard to get a direct answer to a question here, isn't it? The answer is no, the other recent SLTs offer the same white balance controls as the A37.

Wait a minute. It sounds like you aren't aware that the A37 has built-in hue controls. Have you tried them?

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

moimoi said:
moimoi wrote:

moimoi said:

Michel J wrote:

So your point is OOT since we don't talk here to shoot .raw.

Click to expand...

My point was that you won't have to shoot jpg if you shoot raw ;-)

I know perfectly well about it, and I agree, but again: it's not the goal of that thread, sorry.

moimoi said:
In other words, you do not need to worry about the WB before post-processing. It will save you a lot of time. If you are worried with this, get a grey card!

Since we know that a wrong WB can influence exposure 'till one or two stops, yes I care about it.

And no, you won't "save" anything, since you just starting a contradictory workflow, what again is not the goal of this thread.

Regards,

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

sybersitizen said:
sybersitizen said:

sybersitizen said:

VirtualMirage wrote:

sybersitizen said:

Michel J wrote:

Above I trying to match the "Minolta colours" with the A37, with a customized WB (7400°K B2 M1). And after many different settings, this one seems to be the best one.

The green match (but continue to be a tad yellowish comparing to the pure colour of the Minolta), but the sky suffer of a lack of red/magenta a lot.

I can do with Photoshop (Green: HUE + 7, Blue HUE + 4) and I can get similiar result, but the question is: do is it possible to get it straight from camera. Do a top of the line SLT (A77, A99) can setting the Hue?

Kind Regards,

PS: so, for now, I conclude that nothing can compare to the D7D about coulours, imho.

--

Michel J
« Having the latest gear is nice, but great photographers don't have to have it. They can shoot good stuff with anything »

Click to expand...

I can't confirm if your A37 has this, but the A77 and A99 allows you to fine tune your WB further via a 2-axis "graph". This mode lets you adjust the white balance in the amber-blue and green-magenta directions. This might help you get closer to what you are trying to achieve within the camera.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

moimoi · Aug 19, 2013

I think you are mistaken. The exposure is direclty influenced by the amount of photons hitting the sensor. Hence, it depends on the two important parameyrrs, I.e. aperture, shutter speed settings, and to a less extent ISO setting. White balance is not correlated with the amount of photons entering the camera.

Color response of the sensor is a different matter.

With raw, you do the whole processing yourself. With jpg, the camera does it for you, and mote often wrongly than correctly.

moimoi · Aug 19, 2013

RichV · Aug 19, 2013

Whenever I want to simulate the 5D/7D color response, I take my RAW files into DxO and tell it to use that profile. While it doesn't seem to be 100% accurate, it's often pretty close.

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

moimoi said:
moimoi wrote:

I think you are mistaken. The exposure is direclty influenced by the amount of photons hitting the sensor. Hence, it depends on the two important parameyrrs, I.e. aperture, shutter speed settings, and to a less extent ISO setting. White balance is not correlated with the amount of photons entering the camera.

Correct, but a wrong WB can make the exposure not accurate, as some experiences shown. Here for about one stop:

68423986cc4b4631a288dc1d19b49497.jpg.gif

(please click on the link above to get the animated .GIF)

moimoi said:
Color response of the sensor is a different matter.

A sensor don't have a "color response", only grey levels!

moimoi said:
With raw, you do the whole processing yourself. With jpg, the camera does it for you, and mote often wrongly than correctly.

The goal is to have a WB at is best from the in-camera .JPEG, then you can get a better .raw, because a better achievement of the exposure imho.

Regards,

--

Michel J
« Having the latest gear is nice, but great photographers don't have to have it. They can shoot good stuff with anything »

moimoi · Aug 19, 2013

Michel J said:
Michel J wrote:

A sensor don't have a "color response", only grey levels!

True, but there is a color array filter on your sensor. ;-) That's what I meant.

As for exposure, it it always best to get the exposure right.

Raw > jpg, but not the other way around. I guess it all depends on your workflow, but as far as I am concerned, the raw format is all I need.

Michel J said:
--

Michel J
« Having the latest gear is nice, but great photographers don't have to have it. They can shoot good stuff with anything »

Michel J · Aug 19, 2013

moimoi said:
moimoi wrote:

As for exposure, it it always best to get the exposure right.

How can you get it OOC if you don't setting up the WB in-camera as required by the lighting situation: this is the question!

Because OOC is to late to know if you have blown the luminance channel (.raw or not)

It's also too late doing something like adding some lightbox, flash fill-in nor replacing mixed sources by daylight ones... And so on...

Cheers,
--
Michel J
« Having the latest gear is nice, but great photographers don't have to have it. They can shoot good stuff with anything »

JPEG for the PROs: achieving "Minolta colours" with a D-SLT ?

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