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Is the Panasonic GX7 a Sony NEX7 killer?

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kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
Cipher wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
cameras, when they pretty much use the same 16MP recycled sensor.

Yes, the GX7 is rumored to have a new "amazing" sensor....but the same was hyped about the GH3's new sensor when it was released. Look at DPreview's review of the GH3. They aren't exactly raving about its stills image quality.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the GH3 uses the same sensor as the OM-D E-M5...
Click to expand...
No. That was the rumor, but it is not the same sensor. The OM-D uses a Sony sensor which is superior to the GH3's (at least for stills).
Click to expand...
The GH3 IQ is slightly degraded due to the strong Anti-Aliasing filter Panasonic used on the GH3, but has done away with on the GX7.
 
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kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:

What is hilarious, is that you seem to forget that an Oly/Pany at F1.8 when compared to APS-C is more like F2.3 or F2.4 (not exactly sure, but somewhere near that).

You also seem to forget that you can put an old legacy lens on an NEX system camera which are extremely sharp.

And I compare the sensor, because that's the most important key in a camera. It is what gets you the depth of field, the detail, dynamic range, etc. Any other feature aside from the sensor, although important, are just icing on the cake.

However you put it....and NEX-7 with the Sony 35F1.8 / Zeiss 24 F1.8 lens, or the new Zeiss Touit lenses will be superior to a M43 camera and the best m43 glass u can put on it.
Click to expand...
That argument would work... if NEX actually had much to equal the M43 f/1.8 glass. Sure, the Olympus 45mm f/1.8 is at best a 90mm f/3.6, but the Sigma is at best a 90mm f/4.2, so what's your point?

Also, Pana-Leica 25mm f/1.4 exists, where it is more or less equal to Sony 35mm f/1.8. At the Zeiss 24 f/1.8, you do have the M43 soundly beat, but that's a MASSIVE and expensive piece of glass. I feel like people consider the 28-35mm range to be more of a walkaround lens, and at that the 20mm Sony is much more reasonable, but at f/2.8, that's hardly a speed demon. I still don't think anything on the NEX side can compete with the 20mm f/1.7 or the 17mm f/1.8 in terms of a general all-purpose lens that's actually fun to have around your neck. And you could buy both of them for the same price as a Zeiss 24.

I really feel like the 50mm f/1.8 is an awkward point for APS-C. I know people continue to make these like it makes any sense, but I just don't think the 75mm equivalent lens is all that desirable. It's neither normal nor flattering enough to be a portrait length. That's my opinion, of course. So the 50mm f/1.8 Sony, yes, I'll give you that, too. But the fact that M43 doesn't even try to have anything in that focal range tells you how much most people think about a 75mm equivalent focal length.

Now, what about the all important 85-150mm portrait range?
 
Marty4650 said:
Marty4650 wrote:
Marty4650 said:
jennajenna wrote:

"The Sony NEX7 has one advantage over the Panasonic GX7. It has a larger sensor. But this advantage can also be a disadvantage because it means you will need larger lenses for it. So it cuts both ways."

If that was s true disadvantage then full frame cameras would sell poorly.
Click to expand...
Do you imagine that full frame cameras outsell crop sensor cameras?

Because if you do, then you are very wrong.

I will agree with the general concept that "larger sensors are better" but this does NOT translate into sales numbers.

A "budget" $2000 full frame DSLR is still a very niche product, especially when you consider that you can buy a very nice K5, D7100, or 70D... PLUS three lenses for less.

Full frame cameras DO sell in relatively smaller numbers. This doesn't mean they aren't better choices for some, it just means they are a very niche product.
Click to expand...
 
dougjgreen1 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:
The Sony cameras with either legacy lenses, or the lenses you mention, still cannot compete on overall size and weight with the better micro 4/3 cameras. on OTHER criteria than size and weight, they are fine, but again, they do not have anywhere near as comprehensive a lineup of lenses as m4/3.

Other than the lack of native lenses, there is nothing wrong with the Sony cameras. But lenses DO matter. I don't see any sort of decent super-wide in the Sony NEX system. That's a huge deficiency.
Click to expand...
Have you seen how small the NEX-3N is? Also, Sony does have a 10-18 F4 for the NEX cameras, which has great reviews.

I agree that the m43 cameras are smaller overall and their lens lineup are much lighter and smaller......BUT....at the same time, that is at the compromise of sensor size and image quality.

I own both an OM-D and an NEX-7. Both are great cameras, special in their own way.

But when I want to take the best photos I possible can, and the best image quality is required....make no mistake, my NEX-7 and prime lenses are what are going inside my camera bag.
 
kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
Cipher wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
cameras, when they pretty much use the same 16MP recycled sensor.

Yes, the GX7 is rumored to have a new "amazing" sensor....but the same was hyped about the GH3's new sensor when it was released. Look at DPreview's review of the GH3. They aren't exactly raving about its stills image quality.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the GH3 uses the same sensor as the OM-D E-M5...
Click to expand...
No. That was the rumor, but it is not the same sensor. The OM-D uses a Sony sensor which is superior to the GH3's (at least for stills).
Click to expand...
Based on the test results it seems pretty obvious that the GH3 and EM5 use the same Sony sensor. I think this has been confirmed as such.



63fb658d342a49318fc928f90730bb68.jpg



If they are NOT the same sensor, then someone must explain why the test results are so close. And even those minor differences could be attributed to sample variation or sensor tweaking.

The GX7 is rumored to have a "new Panasonic sensor" and we have yet to see how it stacks up against the 16MP Sony sensor. If it isn't any better than the "old" Panasonic 16MP sensor, then Panasonic will have wasted a lot of effort producing an otherwise stellar new camera.

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-PL2
Olympus OM-D
Sony SLT-A55
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6101/6318442842_7b93cb589b.jpg
 
Last edited:
honeyiscool said:
honeyiscool wrote:
That argument would work... if NEX actually had much to equal the M43 f/1.8 glass. Sure, the Olympus 45mm f/1.8 is at best a 90mm f/3.6, but the Sigma is at best a 90mm f/4.2, so what's your point?
Click to expand...
You mentioned M43 having F1.8 lenses and F1.4 lenses, but when compared to APS-C, they turn out to be an equivalent of F2-F2.5....so NEX is still superior in depth of field.

honeyiscool said:
Also, Pana-Leica 25mm f/1.4 exists, where it is more or less equal to Sony 35mm f/1.8. At the Zeiss 24 f/1.8, you do have the M43 soundly beat, but that's a MASSIVE and expensive piece of glass. I feel like people consider the 28-35mm range to be more of a walkaround lens, and at that the 20mm Sony is much more reasonable, but at f/2.8, that's hardly a speed demon. I still don't think anything on the NEX side can compete with the 20mm f/1.7 or the 17mm f/1.8 in terms of a general all-purpose lens that's actually fun to have around your neck. And you could buy both of them for the same price as a Zeiss 24.
Click to expand...
The Pana-Leica when compared to the Sony 35 F1.8 is just about the same in depth of field and maybe F2....not to mention, the Sony 35 F1.8 has built in stabilization.

The Zeiss 24 F1.8 is pricey, but tack sharp. Mind you, we are not talking about pricing here, we are talking about overall image quality. Massive lens? I own one, and when paired with my NEX-7 it is light years more smaller and lighter than when I had my Nikon D700 with Nikon 24 F1.4.
The reason why M43 makes lenses smaller and lighter, it is because the sensor size is smaller.
The Sony 35 F1.8 is the smallest F1.8 lens I have ever used.

honeyiscool said:
I really feel like the 50mm f/1.8 is an awkward point for APS-C. I know people continue to make these like it makes any sense, but I just don't think the 75mm equivalent lens is all that desirable. It's neither normal nor flattering enough to be a portrait length. That's my opinion, of course. So the 50mm f/1.8 Sony, yes, I'll give you that, too. But the fact that M43 doesn't even try to have anything in that focal range tells you how much most people think about a 75mm equivalent focal length.

Now, what about the all important 85-150mm portrait range?
Click to expand...
The 50 F1.8 is a portrait lens, just like the Olympus 45/75 F1.8 are portrait lenses as well. Neither of those lenses are particularly "walk around" lenses.

The important 85-150mm portrait range? Sony has announced an NEX 50-155 F2.8 G lens in their roadmap...not officially, but pictures have already been leaked. They are also releasing a G wide zoom lens (rumored to be 16-50 F2.8), and a 85mm F1.4.
 
Marty4650 said:
Marty4650 wrote:
Marty4650 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
Marty4650 said:
Cipher wrote:
Marty4650 said:
cameras, when they pretty much use the same 16MP recycled sensor.

Yes, the GX7 is rumored to have a new "amazing" sensor....but the same was hyped about the GH3's new sensor when it was released. Look at DPreview's review of the GH3. They aren't exactly raving about its stills image quality.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the GH3 uses the same sensor as the OM-D E-M5...
Click to expand...
No. That was the rumor, but it is not the same sensor. The OM-D uses a Sony sensor which is superior to the GH3's (at least for stills).
Click to expand...
Based on the test results it seems pretty obvious that the GH3 and EM5 use the same Sony sensor. I think this has been confirmed as such.

63fb658d342a49318fc928f90730bb68.jpg

If they are NOT the same sensor, then someone must explain why the test results are so close. And even those minor differences could be attributed to sample variation or sensor tweaking.

The GX7 is rumored to have a "new Panasonic sensor" and we have yet to see how it stacks up against the 16MP Sony sensor. If it isn't any better than the "old" Panasonic 16MP sensor, then Panasonic will have wasted a lot of effort producing an otherwise stellar new camera.

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-PL2
Olympus OM-D
Sony SLT-A55
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6101/6318442842_7b93cb589b.jpg
Click to expand...


I see......then why is the OM-D still superior in high ISO's when compared to the GH3?
 
kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
honeyiscool wrote:

Thank you for your insight, but given that we're comparing the entire camera and not just the sensor, it's hilarious that you talk about depth of field for a system that doesn't have a single piece of native glass faster than f/1.8 or a prime longer than 60mm, and are you going to tell me that the Sigma 60mm f/2.8 will give you better IQ, DOF, and detail than the Olympus 45mm f/1.8? And never mind the Olympus 75mm f/1.8 or the new Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.2 that will laugh at what Sony has managed to accomplish with its NEX glass.
Click to expand...
What is hilarious, is that you seem to forget that an Oly/Pany at F1.8 when compared to APS-C is more like F2.3 or F2.4 (not exactly sure, but somewhere near that).

You also seem to forget that you can put any old legacy lenses on an NEX system camera which are extremely sharp.

And I compare the sensor, because that's the most important key in a camera. It is what gets you the depth of field, the detail, dynamic range, etc. Any other feature aside from the sensor, although important, are just icing on the cake.

However you put it....and NEX-7 with the Sony 35F1.8 / Zeiss 24 F1.8 lens, or the new Zeiss Touit lenses will be superior to a M43 camera and the best m43 glass u can put on it.
Click to expand...
How do you figure that an f/1.8 on a m43 sensor isn't a 1.8 on an APS-C sensor? The formula for determining N (the f stop number) is focal distance (f) over the effective aperture (D). So the sony 35 F1.8 lens would have a D value of 29.167 with a 52.5mm equivalent focal distance.



An equivalent m43 lens would have a focal distance of 26.25 (accounting for the crop factor), and would have a D value of 29.167 in order to have an aperture value of 1.8.

The size of the sensor doesn't matter. A 1.8 lens on FF is a 1.8 lens on APS-C is a 1.8 lens of m43. The only difference is the focal distance, which is affected by the crop factor of the sensor used.
 
dougjgreen1 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:

The mirrorless system camera market remains about 1/4th the size of the DSLR market:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/mirrorless-shipments-down.html
Click to expand...
The DSLR market has been out for YEARS.

The mirrorless camera system is relatively new, but it has especially begun to evolve a lot more as of late. Sales are increasing.

Full frame mirrorless Sony RX1, NEX Full Frame, more capable M43 with smaller lenses, etc.

Things are slowly but surely changing.
 
ijm5012 said:
ijm5012 wrote:
ijm5012 said:
How do you figure that an f/1.8 on a m43 sensor isn't a 1.8 on an APS-C sensor? The formula for determining N (the f stop number) is focal distance (f) over the effective aperture (D). So the sony 35 F1.8 lens would have a D value of 29.167 with a 52.5mm equivalent focal distance.
Click to expand...
An equivalent m43 lens would have a focal distance of 26.25 (accounting for the crop factor), and would have a D value of 29.167 in order to have an aperture value of 1.8.

The size of the sensor doesn't matter. A 1.8 lens on FF is a 1.8 lens on APS-C is a 1.8 lens of m43. The only difference is the focal distance, which is affected by the crop factor of the sensor used.
Click to expand...
If you think that an F1.8 lens on a M43 camera is equivalent to a F1.8 on an APS-Camera....and F1.8 APS-C is equivalent to F1.8 on Full Frame...... then I suggest you stop right now, and go do some research and learn a few things.
 
kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:

The Sony cameras with either legacy lenses, or the lenses you mention, still cannot compete on overall size and weight with the better micro 4/3 cameras. on OTHER criteria than size and weight, they are fine, but again, they do not have anywhere near as comprehensive a lineup of lenses as m4/3.

Other than the lack of native lenses, there is nothing wrong with the Sony cameras. But lenses DO matter. I don't see any sort of decent super-wide in the Sony NEX system. That's a huge deficiency.
Click to expand...
Have you seen how small the NEX-3N is? Also, Sony does have a 10-18 F4 for the NEX cameras, which has great reviews.

I agree that the m43 cameras are smaller overall and their lens lineup are much lighter and smaller......BUT....at the same time, that is at the compromise of sensor size and image quality.

I own both an OM-D and an NEX-7. Both are great cameras, special in their own way.

But when I want to take the best photos I possible can, and the best image quality is required....make no mistake, my NEX-7 and prime lenses are what are going inside my camera bag.
Click to expand...
Again, I'm not talking about size of the bodies - and the NEX 3N is irrelevant, because it has no viewfinder, and no viewfinder option - so basically, for me it would be useless. Don't get me wrong, I certainly consider the NEX-6 and NEX-7 In particular to be serious cameras. But where they lose to micro 4/3 is the size of their longer lenses dwarfs the equivalent lenses in m4/3.
 
dougjgreen1 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:

The mirrorless system camera market remains about 1/4th the size of the DSLR market:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/mirrorless-shipments-down.html
Click to expand...
How does 25% become a "small fraction" when just four years ago it was 0%?

Did anyone honestly expect MILC cameras to DISPLACE DSLRs in this short period of time. Because I sure didn't. This is just another option for photographers, and one that has the DSLR makers a little worried right now.

Sure.... DSLRs outsell MILC cameras, but that doesn't mean that a MILC camera isn't a good choice for many people. I've never owned a car that was a top ten model, but all the cars I have owned worked well for me.

Which manufacturer enjoys seeing 1/4th of their market migrate over to something else?

Is there some reason that both Canon and Nikon have introduced MILC systems?

Are they just stupid, or are they worried about something?
 
dougjgreen1 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:
dougjgreen1 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
dougjgreen1 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:

The Sony cameras with either legacy lenses, or the lenses you mention, still cannot compete on overall size and weight with the better micro 4/3 cameras. on OTHER criteria than size and weight, they are fine, but again, they do not have anywhere near as comprehensive a lineup of lenses as m4/3.

Other than the lack of native lenses, there is nothing wrong with the Sony cameras. But lenses DO matter. I don't see any sort of decent super-wide in the Sony NEX system. That's a huge deficiency.
Click to expand...
Have you seen how small the NEX-3N is? Also, Sony does have a 10-18 F4 for the NEX cameras, which has great reviews.

I agree that the m43 cameras are smaller overall and their lens lineup are much lighter and smaller......BUT....at the same time, that is at the compromise of sensor size and image quality.

I own both an OM-D and an NEX-7. Both are great cameras, special in their own way.

But when I want to take the best photos I possible can, and the best image quality is required....make no mistake, my NEX-7 and prime lenses are what are going inside my camera bag.
Click to expand...
Again, I'm not talking about size of the bodies - and the NEX 3N is irrelevant, because it has no viewfinder, and no viewfinder option - so basically, for me it would be useless. Don't get me wrong, I certainly consider the NEX-6 and NEX-7 In particular to be serious cameras. But where they lose to micro 4/3 is the size of their longer lenses dwarfs the equivalent lenses in m4/3.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Marty4650 said:
Marty4650 wrote:
Which manufacturer enjoys seeing 1/4th of their market migrate over to something else?

Is there some reason that both Canon and Nikon have introduced MILC systems?

Are they just stupid, or are they worried about something?
Click to expand...
+ 10000000
 
kcamacho11 said:
I see......then why is the OM-D still superior in high ISO's when compared to the GH3?
Click to expand...
It's not. The only OM-D advantage is a slight edge in resolution, and that's because the GH3 has a strong Anti-Aliasing filter - something Panasonic has done away with on the GX7 BECAUSE it slightly degrades sharpness - but NOT dynamic range.
 
dougjgreen1 said:
dougjgreen1 wrote:
dougjgreen1 said:
I see......then why is the OM-D still superior in high ISO's when compared to the GH3?
Click to expand...
It's not. The only OM-D advantage is a slight edge in resolution, and that's because the GH3 has a strong Anti-Aliasing filter - something Panasonic has done away with on the GX7 BECAUSE it slightly degrades sharpness - but NOT dynamic range.
Click to expand...
Yes it is.

Even here in Dpreview they are not raving about the image quality of the GH3. Look at the ratings they gave both cameras, they marked the OM-D MUCH more superior in High ISO.
 
IMO, no.

Not because the NEX-7 is "better" or that the NEX system is better ...

But because (a) if someone is interested in micro 4/3, the Oly OM-D has been all the rage for a while now and the GX7 doesn't change a whole lot (different form factor, nice EVF, probably much better video) and (b) Panasonic seems to go out of its way to not let the public know that it sells cameras.

Nice camera, and a great alternative to the OMD/NEX6&7/Fuji offerings. But the only "killer" out there these days is the cell phone.

- Dennis
 
kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
ijm5012 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
How do you figure that an f/1.8 on a m43 sensor isn't a 1.8 on an APS-C sensor? The formula for determining N (the f stop number) is focal distance (f) over the effective aperture (D). So the sony 35 F1.8 lens would have a D value of 29.167 with a 52.5mm equivalent focal distance.
Click to expand...
An equivalent m43 lens would have a focal distance of 26.25 (accounting for the crop factor), and would have a D value of 29.167 in order to have an aperture value of 1.8.

The size of the sensor doesn't matter. A 1.8 lens on FF is a 1.8 lens on APS-C is a 1.8 lens of m43. The only difference is the focal distance, which is affected by the crop factor of the sensor used.
Click to expand...
If you think that an F1.8 lens on a M43 camera is equivalent to a F1.8 on an APS-Camera....and F1.8 APS-C is equivalent to F1.8 on Full Frame...... then I suggest you stop right now, and go do some research and learn a few things.
Click to expand...
The effective diameter within each of the lenses will change based on the sensor it is being used for.

A 50mm f/1.8 lens on a FF camera if simply mounted to a m43 camera would suddenly become a 100mm f/3.6 based on the effective diameter needed due to the FF sensor.

My point is, that a f/1.8 lens specifically designed for a m43 sensor mounted to a m43 sensor camera will let in the same amount of light as a f/1.8 lens specifically designed for a APS-C sensor mounted to a APS-C sensor camera.

If you are disagreeing with this, please go ahead and enlighten me by showing me why I am wrong. Don't simply say "go do research" because to me I see that as "well that's not what I read on the internet, so you go figure it out on your own".
 
kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
Marty4650 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
kcamacho11 wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
Cipher wrote:
kcamacho11 said:
cameras, when they pretty much use the same 16MP recycled sensor.

Yes, the GX7 is rumored to have a new "amazing" sensor....but the same was hyped about the GH3's new sensor when it was released. Look at DPreview's review of the GH3. They aren't exactly raving about its stills image quality.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the GH3 uses the same sensor as the OM-D E-M5...
Click to expand...
No. That was the rumor, but it is not the same sensor. The OM-D uses a Sony sensor which is superior to the GH3's (at least for stills).
Click to expand...
Based on the test results it seems pretty obvious that the GH3 and EM5 use the same Sony sensor. I think this has been confirmed as such.

63fb658d342a49318fc928f90730bb68.jpg

If they are NOT the same sensor, then someone must explain why the test results are so close. And even those minor differences could be attributed to sample variation or sensor tweaking.

The GX7 is rumored to have a "new Panasonic sensor" and we have yet to see how it stacks up against the 16MP Sony sensor. If it isn't any better than the "old" Panasonic 16MP sensor, then Panasonic will have wasted a lot of effort producing an otherwise stellar new camera.

--
Marty
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marty4650/sets/72157606210120132/show/
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/
Olympus E-30
Olympus E-PL2
Olympus OM-D
Sony SLT-A55
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6101/6318442842_7b93cb589b.jpg
Click to expand...
I see......then why is the OM-D still superior in high ISO's when compared to the GH3?
Click to expand...
I've not read that anywhere when we're referring to RAW. If it's jpeg, Olympus has always has always had an advantage with their jpeg engine. Panasonic (Sony too) jpegs leave a lot to be desired.
 
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