My 10D has a problem after all...Focus Issue.. pics inside..

Up until today I was convinced my 10D did not have a focus issue. Today was the day I have been waiting for. I was going to buy my 70-200 2.8 IS. Bright an early I headed to Arlington Camera (Arlington, Tx) to try out the lens before I bought it.

I have been using a 28-135 IS for 98% of my photography so far and though the images have seemed rather soft out of the camera they were easily sharpened in Photoshop... And no focus issues were blatantly visible.... Well, what a surprise I got today....

I attached the 70-200 to my 10D and went outside to take a shot of a planter full of flowers and anything else that might offer a good "subject" for the test. I was shooting wide open because I wanted to see that blurred background...

Here are some cropped versions of one of the picutres that most obviously demonstrate the focus issue.. but wait there's more...







Focus point was center point only and directly on the flower in the middle.

I tried another lens, same thing. I tried another lens.. ditto.. So we swithc to their 75-300.. same thing.. every single picture was out of focus on the center focus point, no matter what lense I tried... except my 28-135 IS.

The guys in the store hmmmmmmed and furrowed their brows... hmmmm... "That image should be tack sharp" they said... and I agreed.. after all, we're talking $1795 in L glass here.. one of the best lenses made by Canon and it can't produce a sharp image on my camera.

The guys in the store took shots of people in the store just 20 to 40 feet away and could not get a sharp image with the 70-200 or any other lens. The closest to a good shot came from my old 28-135... sigh..... go figure.

So, I am convinced that my 10D also has a focus issue. I bought mine in March when they first became available so maybe I got one of the bad ones. I guess I'll have to send it in... glad I kept the D30 as a backup.

I probably did not notice this problem because most of my photography is outdoors and usually with a high enough F-Stop which would allow the DOF to hide the issue.

Am I now bashing Canon and the camera.. no, not at all. I still think Canon offers the best cameras for the money and their lenses are great. I think the 10D is a wonderful camera... much better than my D30... I just need to get this little focus issue corrected.. and life will be good again.

Oh, the 70-200 stayed at the store until I get the focus issue straightened out... so, on the bright side the 10D saved me $1795 + tax today.

See Exif data below....

Jim

Tag Name Value
010f Make Canon
0110 Model Canon EOS 10D
0112 Orientation 1
011a XResolution 180.0
011b YResolution 180.0
0128 ResolutionUnit 2
0132 DateTime 2003:05:23 08:41:34
0213 YCbCrPositioning 1
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829a ExposureTime 1/750
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9205 MaxApertureValue 194698/65536
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Self Timer Not Used
Flash Mode Off
Drive Mode Single
Focus Mode One-Shot
Image Size Large
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Contrast (?)
Color Saturation (?)
Sharpness (?)
ISO -
Metering Mode Partial
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Exposure Mode Av-Priority
Lens Attached 70-200 mm
White Balance Auto
Sequence Number 0
Flash Bias 0 EV
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Image Type IMG:EOS 10D JPEG
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Owner Name
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AEB sequence/auto cancellation 0, -, + / Enabled
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0202 JPEGInterchangeFormatLength 7680

At least you got to test the lenses first.

This should be interesting to explain to Canon.

"Why, yes, my camera and lens are perfectly matched, but they're both outta whack!"

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

The camera has been producing good shots from the 28-135IS so I figured I had a good one... but after trying (3) count em, three different lenses right out of shiny new boxes in the camera store and none of them producing a focused image... well, the writing was on the wall..

I just couldn't get the camera to focus on it properly....

Jim

You say he couldn't get a sharp pic with your camera. Did he try one of his 10d's? Did you try the lens with your backup d30?

Thanks for the post. Your pic is a great test shot.

Jim Radcliffe said:

I have been using a 28-135 IS for 98% of my photography so far and
though the images have seemed rather soft out of the camera they
were easily sharpened in Photoshop... And no focus issues were
blatantly visible.... Well, what a surprise I got today....

I attached the 70-200 to my 10D and went outside to take a shot of
a planter full of flowers and anything else that might offer a good
"subject" for the test. I was shooting wide open because I wanted
to see that blurred background...

Here are some cropped versions of one of the picutres that most
obviously demonstrate the focus issue.. but wait there's more...







Focus point was center point only and directly on the flower in the
middle.

I tried another lens, same thing. I tried another lens.. ditto..
So we swithc to their 75-300.. same thing.. every single picture
was out of focus on the center focus point, no matter what lense I
tried... except my 28-135 IS.

The guys in the store hmmmmmmed and furrowed their brows...
hmmmm... "That image should be tack sharp" they said... and I
agreed.. after all, we're talking $1795 in L glass here.. one of
the best lenses made by Canon and it can't produce a sharp image on
my camera.

The guys in the store took shots of people in the store just 20 to
40 feet away and could not get a sharp image with the 70-200 or any
other lens. The closest to a good shot came from my old 28-135...
sigh..... go figure.

So, I am convinced that my 10D also has a focus issue. I bought
mine in March when they first became available so maybe I got one
of the bad ones. I guess I'll have to send it in... glad I kept
the D30 as a backup.

I probably did not notice this problem because most of my
photography is outdoors and usually with a high enough F-Stop which
would allow the DOF to hide the issue.

Am I now bashing Canon and the camera.. no, not at all. I still
think Canon offers the best cameras for the money and their lenses
are great. I think the 10D is a wonderful camera... much better
than my D30... I just need to get this little focus issue
corrected.. and life will be good again.

Oh, the 70-200 stayed at the store until I get the focus issue
straightened out... so, on the bright side the 10D saved me $1795 +
tax today.

See Exif data below....

Jim

Tag Name Value
010f Make Canon
0110 Model Canon EOS 10D
0112 Orientation 1
011a XResolution 180.0
011b YResolution 180.0
0128 ResolutionUnit 2
0132 DateTime 2003:05:23 08:41:34
0213 YCbCrPositioning 1
8769 ExifOffset 196
829a ExposureTime 1/750
829d FNumber 3.5
8827 ISOSpeedRatings 100
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9003 DateTimeOriginal 2003:05:23 08:41:34
9004 DateTimeDigitized 2003:05:23 08:41:34
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9209 Flash 0
920a FocalLength 195.0
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Macro Mode (?)
Self Timer Not Used
Flash Mode Off
Drive Mode Single
Focus Mode One-Shot
Image Size Large
Program Manual
Contrast (?)
Color Saturation (?)
Sharpness (?)
ISO -
Metering Mode Partial
AF Point Selected (?)
Exposure Mode Av-Priority
Lens Attached 70-200 mm
White Balance Auto
Sequence Number 0
Flash Bias 0 EV
Subject Distance 387
Image Type IMG:EOS 10D JPEG
Firmware Firmware Version 1.0.0
Owner Name
Custom Functions:
Long exposure noise reduction Off
Shutter/AE-lock buttons AF/AE lock
Mirror lockup Disabled
Tv/Av and exposure level 1/2 stop
AF-assist light On (auto)
Shutter speed in Av mode Automatic
AEB sequence/auto cancellation 0, -, + / Enabled
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain sync
Lens AF stop button Fn. Switch AF stop
Auto reduction of fill flash Enabled
Menu button return position Top
SET button func. when shooting Not assigned
Sensor cleaning Enabled

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0202 JPEGInterchangeFormatLength 7680

Click to expand...

work_permit said:

You say he couldn't get a sharp pic with your camera. Did he try
one of his 10d's? Did you try the lens with your backup d30?

Thanks for the post. Your pic is a great test shot.

Click to expand...

No, I don't think they had a 10D.. after the 3rd lens on my 10D producing an out of focus image I just thought the odds of them having three bad lenses just seemed too high to contemplate.

The D30 did produce considerably sharper image but I did not try all three lenses on the D30.

Jim

that your 10D is at one end of the tolerance limits, and your 28-135 at the opposite end, in AF shift. So, the errors cancel each other out. But when you tried the 70-200, as well as the other lenses, either the 10D's error was so great, or the lenses' errors were in the same direction as the 10D's, so they added together.

Like DavidP said, "Bummer!"

Took me 3 tries to get my D60 and my 5 lenses focusing right together, but Canon finally did a good job. Good luck!

--
Walter K

Good luck Jim.....

I hope you don't get the runaround I'm getting right now...

Was supposed to have my 10D back today.....but no dice. So it looks like Tuesday at the earliest....and then HOPEFULLY it works properly.

Jim Radcliffe said:

I have been using a 28-135 IS for 98% of my photography so far and
though the images have seemed rather soft out of the camera they
were easily sharpened in Photoshop... And no focus issues were
blatantly visible.... Well, what a surprise I got today....

I attached the 70-200 to my 10D and went outside to take a shot of
a planter full of flowers and anything else that might offer a good
"subject" for the test. I was shooting wide open because I wanted
to see that blurred background...

Here are some cropped versions of one of the picutres that most
obviously demonstrate the focus issue.. but wait there's more...







Focus point was center point only and directly on the flower in the
middle.

I tried another lens, same thing. I tried another lens.. ditto..
So we swithc to their 75-300.. same thing.. every single picture
was out of focus on the center focus point, no matter what lense I
tried... except my 28-135 IS.

The guys in the store hmmmmmmed and furrowed their brows...
hmmmm... "That image should be tack sharp" they said... and I
agreed.. after all, we're talking $1795 in L glass here.. one of
the best lenses made by Canon and it can't produce a sharp image on
my camera.

The guys in the store took shots of people in the store just 20 to
40 feet away and could not get a sharp image with the 70-200 or any
other lens. The closest to a good shot came from my old 28-135...
sigh..... go figure.

So, I am convinced that my 10D also has a focus issue. I bought
mine in March when they first became available so maybe I got one
of the bad ones. I guess I'll have to send it in... glad I kept
the D30 as a backup.

I probably did not notice this problem because most of my
photography is outdoors and usually with a high enough F-Stop which
would allow the DOF to hide the issue.

Am I now bashing Canon and the camera.. no, not at all. I still
think Canon offers the best cameras for the money and their lenses
are great. I think the 10D is a wonderful camera... much better
than my D30... I just need to get this little focus issue
corrected.. and life will be good again.

Oh, the 70-200 stayed at the store until I get the focus issue
straightened out... so, on the bright side the 10D saved me $1795 +
tax today.

See Exif data below....

Jim

Tag Name Value
010f Make Canon
0110 Model Canon EOS 10D
0112 Orientation 1
011a XResolution 180.0
011b YResolution 180.0
0128 ResolutionUnit 2
0132 DateTime 2003:05:23 08:41:34
0213 YCbCrPositioning 1
8769 ExifOffset 196
829a ExposureTime 1/750
829d FNumber 3.5
8827 ISOSpeedRatings 100
9000 ExifVersion 0x30 0x32 0x32 0x30
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9004 DateTimeDigitized 2003:05:23 08:41:34
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9209 Flash 0
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Macro Mode (?)
Self Timer Not Used
Flash Mode Off
Drive Mode Single
Focus Mode One-Shot
Image Size Large
Program Manual
Contrast (?)
Color Saturation (?)
Sharpness (?)
ISO -
Metering Mode Partial
AF Point Selected (?)
Exposure Mode Av-Priority
Lens Attached 70-200 mm
White Balance Auto
Sequence Number 0
Flash Bias 0 EV
Subject Distance 387
Image Type IMG:EOS 10D JPEG
Firmware Firmware Version 1.0.0
Owner Name
Custom Functions:
Long exposure noise reduction Off
Shutter/AE-lock buttons AF/AE lock
Mirror lockup Disabled
Tv/Av and exposure level 1/2 stop
AF-assist light On (auto)
Shutter speed in Av mode Automatic
AEB sequence/auto cancellation 0, -, + / Enabled
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain sync
Lens AF stop button Fn. Switch AF stop
Auto reduction of fill flash Enabled
Menu button return position Top
SET button func. when shooting Not assigned
Sensor cleaning Enabled

9286 UserComment
a000 FlashPixVersion 0x30 0x31 0x30 0x30
a001 ColorSpace 1
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0202 JPEGInterchangeFormatLength 7680

Click to expand...

--
John

Member said:

http://www.pbase.com/mankman
Canon EOS 10D

Equipment list in profile...subject to change on a daily basis ;^)

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and
it holds the universe together

Click to expand...

John Mankos said:

I hope you don't get the runaround I'm getting right now...

Was supposed to have my 10D back today.....but no dice. So it
looks like Tuesday at the earliest....and then HOPEFULLY it works
properly.

Click to expand...

I don't like being without a camera and figured this day would come sooner or later for one reason or antoher... Now I have to figure out whether it goes to NJ or CA...

Try focusing on the edge of your subject next time. Your flower pics offers the camera nothing to focus onto. AF needs contrasty edges.

Jim Radcliffe said:

I have been using a 28-135 IS for 98% of my photography so far and
though the images have seemed rather soft out of the camera they
were easily sharpened in Photoshop... And no focus issues were
blatantly visible.... Well, what a surprise I got today....

I attached the 70-200 to my 10D and went outside to take a shot of
a planter full of flowers and anything else that might offer a good
"subject" for the test. I was shooting wide open because I wanted
to see that blurred background...

Here are some cropped versions of one of the picutres that most
obviously demonstrate the focus issue.. but wait there's more...







Focus point was center point only and directly on the flower in the
middle.

I tried another lens, same thing. I tried another lens.. ditto..
So we swithc to their 75-300.. same thing.. every single picture
was out of focus on the center focus point, no matter what lense I
tried... except my 28-135 IS.

The guys in the store hmmmmmmed and furrowed their brows...
hmmmm... "That image should be tack sharp" they said... and I
agreed.. after all, we're talking $1795 in L glass here.. one of
the best lenses made by Canon and it can't produce a sharp image on
my camera.

The guys in the store took shots of people in the store just 20 to
40 feet away and could not get a sharp image with the 70-200 or any
other lens. The closest to a good shot came from my old 28-135...
sigh..... go figure.

So, I am convinced that my 10D also has a focus issue. I bought
mine in March when they first became available so maybe I got one
of the bad ones. I guess I'll have to send it in... glad I kept
the D30 as a backup.

I probably did not notice this problem because most of my
photography is outdoors and usually with a high enough F-Stop which
would allow the DOF to hide the issue.

Am I now bashing Canon and the camera.. no, not at all. I still
think Canon offers the best cameras for the money and their lenses
are great. I think the 10D is a wonderful camera... much better
than my D30... I just need to get this little focus issue
corrected.. and life will be good again.

Oh, the 70-200 stayed at the store until I get the focus issue
straightened out... so, on the bright side the 10D saved me $1795 +
tax today.

See Exif data below....

Jim

Tag Name Value
010f Make Canon
0110 Model Canon EOS 10D
0112 Orientation 1
011a XResolution 180.0
011b YResolution 180.0
0128 ResolutionUnit 2
0132 DateTime 2003:05:23 08:41:34
0213 YCbCrPositioning 1
8769 ExifOffset 196
829a ExposureTime 1/750
829d FNumber 3.5
8827 ISOSpeedRatings 100
9000 ExifVersion 0x30 0x32 0x32 0x30
9003 DateTimeOriginal 2003:05:23 08:41:34
9004 DateTimeDigitized 2003:05:23 08:41:34
9101 ComponentsConfiguration 0x1 0x2 0x3 0x0
9102 CompressedBitsPerPixel 3.0
9201 ShutterSpeedValue 625918/65536
9202 ApertureValue 236894/65536
9204 ExposureBiasValue -2/2
9205 MaxApertureValue 194698/65536
9207 MeteringMode 6
9209 Flash 0
920a FocalLength 195.0
927c MakerNote

Macro Mode (?)
Self Timer Not Used
Flash Mode Off
Drive Mode Single
Focus Mode One-Shot
Image Size Large
Program Manual
Contrast (?)
Color Saturation (?)
Sharpness (?)
ISO -
Metering Mode Partial
AF Point Selected (?)
Exposure Mode Av-Priority
Lens Attached 70-200 mm
White Balance Auto
Sequence Number 0
Flash Bias 0 EV
Subject Distance 387
Image Type IMG:EOS 10D JPEG
Firmware Firmware Version 1.0.0
Owner Name
Custom Functions:
Long exposure noise reduction Off
Shutter/AE-lock buttons AF/AE lock
Mirror lockup Disabled
Tv/Av and exposure level 1/2 stop
AF-assist light On (auto)
Shutter speed in Av mode Automatic
AEB sequence/auto cancellation 0, -, + / Enabled
Shutter curtain sync 1st-curtain sync
Lens AF stop button Fn. Switch AF stop
Auto reduction of fill flash Enabled
Menu button return position Top
SET button func. when shooting Not assigned
Sensor cleaning Enabled

9286 UserComment
a000 FlashPixVersion 0x30 0x31 0x30 0x30
a001 ColorSpace 1
a002 ExifImageWidth 3072
a003 ExifImageLength 2048
a005 InteroperabilityOffset 2330
0001 InteroperabilityIndex R98
0002 InteroperabilityVersion 0x30 0x31 0x30 0x30
1001 RelatedImageWidth 3072
1002 RelatedImageHeight 2048
a20e FocalPlaneXResolution 3072000/892
a20f FocalPlaneYResolution 2048000/595
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a401 0
a402 0
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011b YResolution 180.0
0128 ResolutionUnit 2
0201 JPEGInterchangeFormat 2548
0202 JPEGInterchangeFormatLength 7680

Click to expand...

Lol, just as i finished reading Jim's post, I though to myself "bummer". Then I hit Next > > and saw you post. Great minds....

Cheers,
Pete

DavidP said:

At least you got to test the lenses first.

This should be interesting to explain to Canon.

"Why, yes, my camera and lens are perfectly matched, but they're
both outta whack!"

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/pcockerell
http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/

Anthony said:

Try focusing on the edge of your subject next time. Your flower
pics offers the camera nothing to focus onto. AF needs contrasty
edges.

Click to expand...

Anthony, give me a break.. there was plenty to focus on and if a 10D can't focus on this simple scenario Canon really has a problem.. it was not just the flowers.. it was every shot with 3 different lenses... inside the store and outside.. whatever was being focused on was NEVER in focus.

I'm not from yesterday's new recruits from the point and shoot crowd. I know what I'm doing.

Jim

I'm not exactly sure what the min focusing distance of 70-200mm f2.8L, but my 70-200 f4L has around 700mm if I remember correctly. If the below number is correct, it could be the source of the problem.

Nick

Jim Radcliffe said:

Subject Distance 387

Click to expand...

So only you can determine what part/parts of the low contrast seen you want in focus.
It's more of a framing issue as you focus in and out at this large aperture.

I also think that the high contrast areas at the very edges of your blurry flower (which are in good focus) may have played a role in determining the focal point inside of the rectangle.

Join the chant: It must be user error. The 10D has no focus problems. Your previous tests PROVE this.

Jim Radcliffe said:

Anthony, give me a break.. there was plenty to focus on and if a
10D can't focus on this simple scenario Canon really has a
problem.. it was not just the flowers.. it was every shot with 3
different lenses... inside the store and outside.. whatever was
being focused on was NEVER in focus.

I'm not from yesterday's new recruits from the point and shoot
crowd. I know what I'm doing.

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Actually it's more like 1200mm for 70-200 f4L.

nickkn said:

Nick

Jim Radcliffe said:

Subject Distance 387

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Didn't me to insult you. The forum's been getting lots of newbies lately.

I exchanged my 10D. This one seems to working nicely.
42xx serial #

Jim Radcliffe said:

Anthony said:

Try focusing on the edge of your subject next time. Your flower
pics offers the camera nothing to focus onto. AF needs contrasty
edges.

Click to expand...

Anthony, give me a break.. there was plenty to focus on and if a
10D can't focus on this simple scenario Canon really has a
problem.. it was not just the flowers.. it was every shot with 3
different lenses... inside the store and outside.. whatever was
being focused on was NEVER in focus.

I'm not from yesterday's new recruits from the point and shoot
crowd. I know what I'm doing.

Jim

Click to expand...

"Kindly" I agree that if Canon's AF system can focus on that budding flower-- then "Houston" we got a problem.

Sam I am said:

So only you can determine what part/parts of the low contrast seen
you want in focus.
It's more of a framing issue as you focus in and out at this large
aperture.
I also think that the high contrast areas at the very edges of your
blurry flower (which are in good focus) may have played a role in
determining the focal point inside of the rectangle.

Click to expand...

--
Troponin (Trop)

With all due respect, I'm not saying that other shots were user errors, but in this particular shot when the view "tunneled" through leaves, it could've easily misfocused.



The active AF area is larger by about 50% on each of the four sides of the square. Plenty of space for AF sensor to get confused and hit wrong branches.

Also, in which position was the range switch (the one with 1.4-2.5, 2.5-oo marks)? Sometimes wrong position of this switch facilitates misfocus on 70-200IS.

Jim Radcliffe said:

Anthony said:

Try focusing on the edge of your subject next time. Your flower
pics offers the camera nothing to focus onto. AF needs contrasty
edges.

Click to expand...

Anthony, give me a break.. there was plenty to focus on and if a
10D can't focus on this simple scenario Canon really has a
problem.. it was not just the flowers.. it was every shot with 3
different lenses... inside the store and outside.. whatever was
being focused on was NEVER in focus.

I'm not from yesterday's new recruits from the point and shoot
crowd. I know what I'm doing.

Jim

Click to expand...

--
Mishkin

I get the feeling some of you guys are not reading the post...

Three different lenses.. numerous subjects, not just these stupid flowers... people, boxes, display signs, etc... ALL OF THEM OUT OF FOCUS....

how can I make this clear to you... MY CAMERA DOES HAVE A PROBLEM... I have accepted this.. I am not in denial.. I have seen the proof. My 10D does have a focus issue which I will have fixed.

It's almost like some of you guys just don't want to believe there could possibly be a probelm with my camera.. that it must be the photographer or bad mojo.. but not the camera.... My god, guys... It's a tool.. tools get out of alignment, etc.. they break.. occasionally they are not adjusted properly...

It's not a big deal.. I'll just have it repaird.

First (and most importantly), he said they tried to shoot other things.

Second, Canon's AF almost always tends to AF on the CLOSEST thing that has contrast when presented with a situation like the one shown here.

Make that three things. He said his 28-135 IS focused on it just fine.

Mishkin said:

With all due respect, I'm not saying that other shots were user
errors, but in this particular shot when the view "tunneled"
through leaves, it could've easily misfocused.

The active AF area is larger by about 50% on each of the four sides
of the square. Plenty of space for AF sensor to get confused and
hit wrong branches.

Also, in which position was the range switch (the one with 1.4-2.5,
2.5-oo marks)? Sometimes wrong position of this switch facilitates
misfocus on 70-200IS.

Click to expand...

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise